Curse

Bryant Again · Sep 02, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

And things being as they are for so long, 3 heroes work, there is no 'need' to have 7 heroes, its just a matter of convenience, but this convenience would break the game for others.

Would it, or would the huge appeal of PvE skills override the "urge to solo"?

kazjun · Sep 02, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

If I had to choose 7 heroe's or pve skills, I'd take the heroes. Pve skills are fun and some are just imba, but being able to set a full team build would beat them in effectiveness.

Esprit · Sep 02, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Those of us who were there from the beginning did not have the luxury of hero's. We either had a guild group or we pug'd or used a henchmen team.

Even now I still use henchmen because sometimes their AI is more reliable than hero's are with our own builds.

While I really don't have any particular reason against 7 Hero's, I would restrict the option for 7 Hero's to Hard Mode.

Bryant Again · Sep 02, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

If I had to choose 7 heroe's or pve skills, I'd take the heroes. Pve skills are fun and some are just imba, but being able to set a full team build would beat them in effectiveness.

A team with heroes and good builds is more effective than a team of humans with good builds *and* PvE skills? Come again?

However, that question wasn't really directed towards you. It was more a question to ask the general populous, and it'd be very likely they'd go with humans and PvE skills. Heroes aren't really effective unless you really know your shit with the game. Otherwise you're just as better off with henchies.

zwei2stein · Sep 02, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

A team with heroes and good builds is more effective than a team of humans with good builds *and* PvE skills? Come again?

However, that question wasn't really directed towards you. It was more a question to ask the general populous, and it'd be very likely they'd go with humans and PvE skills. Heroes aren't really effective unless you really know your shit with the game. Otherwise you're just as better off with henchies.

I think he meant his three PvE skills.

In which case i would agree with him as one pve skill is well worth 1.3 hero with good bar.

Think about it this also way:

those 4 heroes have runes and equipment. up to 120 extra health, having extra energy, runes, HSR/HCT mods and armor mods. Physical bars would have ias, etc etc. Basically, what they would get is equal to conset being active on them.

What we gain here is at power levels of one conset for those 4 extra heroes - one half of permanent conset for whole party. Its well worth of sacrifice of one players pve skills.

Bryant Again · Sep 02, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I think he meant his three PvE skills.

In which case i would agree with him as one pve skill is well worth 1.3 hero with good bar.

Think about it this also way:

those 4 heroes have runes and equipment. up to 120 extra health, having extra energy, runes, HSR/HCT mods and armor mods. Physical bars would have ias, etc etc. Basically, what they would get is equal to conset being active on them.

What we gain here is at power levels of one conset for those 4 extra heroes - one half of permanent conset for whole party. Its well worth of sacrifice of one players pve skills.

However, there is one very chief factor: This is under the fact that the heroes are completely geared, bars completely built, and generally toned to near perfection.

As I said earlier, heroes aren't an automatic win button. You have to know your stuff, know *their* stuff, other peoples stuff, etc. And that's why they're not gonna "sucking in" puggers as much as people here think: you have to be good to use heroes effectively. The same doesn't need to be said of PvE skills.

zwei2stein · Sep 02, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

However, there is one very chief factor: This is under the fact that the heroes are completely geared, bars completely built, and generally toned to near perfection.

As I said earlier, heroes aren't an automatic win button. You have to know your stuff, know *their* stuff, other peoples stuff, etc. And that's why they're not gonna "sucking in" puggers as much as people here think: you have to be good to use heroes effectively. The same doesn't need to be said of PvE skills.

Depends. Even average players might be "smart enough" to simply run Sab+Rac(+1 Hybrid monk)-way.

But again, whoamikidding. They would run koss as obsitank, dunkoro as bonder, BiP olias, HB talkhora and ogden and 2x SF eles. Sup runes/Radiant insignia included. Fail rightaway or progress miserably slow and go back to pugs.

Bryant Again · Sep 02, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Damned if you do damned if you don't, eh? As much as we shun pugs, it's their silliness that's keeping them puggin' ;P

[email protected] · Sep 02, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

They should include it only too close this silly thread.

Shasgaliel · Sep 02, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Lightbringer rank is also displayed for and affects heroes. Obviously while having a rank 8 I would like to use heroes in RoT than pug with people with much lower ranks. In this case having possibility of 7 heroes will make this RoT piece of cake even on HM. Same with GWEN titles.

upier · Sep 02, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

Lightbringer rank is also displayed for and affects heroes. Obviously while having a rank 8 I would like to use heroes in RoT than pug with people with much lower ranks. In this case having possibility of 7 heroes will make this RoT piece of cake even on HM. Same with GWEN titles.

I never display any titles that have a benefit on the game. Not in GWEN, nor in RoT.
I play with heroes and hench. And those places are a piece of cake.
This simply can not be a valid reason against it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

And things being as they are for so long, 3 heroes work, there is no 'need' to have 7 heroes, its just a matter of convenience, but this convenience would break the game for others.

How would it "break the game for others"?
This is something I really do not see.

Necro Quink · Sep 02, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

If you use 7 heroes, what's the point of being in a Guild? Being part of a guild is doing stuff together instead being a big selfish player that only does stuff with 7 heroes!

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 02, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necro Quink

If you use 7 heroes, what's the point of being in a Guild? Being part of a guild is doing stuff together instead being a big selfish player that only does stuff with 7 heroes!

There's tons of people that H/H everything. I wonder why they're in a guild. Surely they must be anti-social and have no need for a guild!

Necro Quink · Sep 02, 2008, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

There's tons of people that H/H everything. I wonder why they're in a guild. Surely they must be anti-social and have no need for a guild!

Exacty, it's always those who complain about stuff like this.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 02, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

I think the people who complain about 7 heroes are more likely to have more social issues than the ones that are for it. The people against it don't seem to realize all the social problems that take place in the game.

Some of the people that are against it are worried that they won't have anyone to play with anymore. Finding a good reliable guild to get things done with isn't always easy to do. Finding a decent pug is next to impossible. Many players wanna take advantage of GW's skill synergy and create their own team builds with 7 heroes.

There's tons of players out there that want 7 heroes and are more than willing to share their team builds with other players. They're not as selfish or anti-social as you might think. They just wanna get more into the game without having their gameplay disrupted by others.

Shasgaliel · Sep 02, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I never display any titles that have a benefit on the game. Not in GWEN, nor in RoT.
I play with heroes and hench. And those places are a piece of cake.
This simply can not be a valid reason against it..

Just because you do not do it, does not render the validity of the reasoning. Most of the people do display them and profit from the effects. With empty skill bar all areas can be a piece of cake if the team is good. What does that prove? Nothing. It can be done with just 3 heroes and no henchmen and what does that prove? Nothing again.

The problem is that by having possibility of 7 heroes and knowing the effects of displaying titles people with high ranks will have additional incentive to chose heroes over real players. Now you have 3 heroes + you who benefit and 4 henchmen who do not. Then there is at least an incentive to replace those and team up with someone for better effect. Of course it is possible to handle many areas with henchmen but worse players may encounter difficulties which may force them to try to team up. With 7 heroes who benefit then there will be absolutely no need to team up for most of the areas. I think then even more people will be playing solo than now.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 02, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

I think then even more people will be playing solo than now.

What other players do is none of your business if they don't want it to be. Sorry but it's the truth.

Responses like these do remind me of kids. Even to this day, I still see it sometimes - young kids crying to their parents because someone didn't wanna play with them. It really isn't much different in this case.

PinoyBoy · Sep 02, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

I like PUGs.

They're fun.

But rarely do groups form anymore.

Guild Wars is supposed to be an MMO.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 02, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinoyBoy

I like PUGs.

They're fun.

But rarely do groups form anymore.

Guild Wars is supposed to be an MMO.

GW's PvE has one massive flaw - you always know what you're going up against.

We all know that PvP is a hundred times harder than PvE, but why is it that there's alot more variety in PvP pug's? It's because the opposing team will always be random.

If PvE mobs were random, what would happen? You couldn't Tank 'n' Spank anymore because you wouldn't know if the other team is gonna bring something to counter your setup. The result: hey let's bring a Warrior, the other team might have some caster hate. Let's use a fire Ele, they might bunch up often. Let's use a Mesmer, what if they have a monk that needs to be shutdown? Let's bring a Ranger, interrupts could be useful. What's this? It's a balanced group being formed. You don't know what you're going up against so you bring a variety of classes that way you're prepared to go up against anything.

That would be the death to the Holy Trinity - the one thing that's ruined PUG's in GW since the very start.

If Anet knows this and plans to fix it, GW2 should be a huge step foward and a big success. I know for a fact we won't ever see it in GW1 because it'd require a massive rework of PvE.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 02, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

No impact to gameplay.
-Changing an MMO to a purely Solo RPG changes the content of the game significantly and changes the game's player dynamics and expectations.

Yeah, but that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed here is allowing people who for the most part doesn't group with humans to use heroes instead of henches, and to bring full teams to elite areas.

Quote:

7 heroes is no different from 7 humans.
-Um...no. I dont even need to disprove this. Its just wrong.

True. 8 humans is VASTLY, ENORMOUSLY superior to 1 human + 7 heroes.

Quote:

It may lower human interactivity
-We dont have data to prove or disprove this.

True, we don't know if this would lower human interactivity at all. Still that is the reason ANet wont give us 7 heroes: research has shown that the human interactivity is what keeps players playing. This is also why GW2 will be designed from the ground up to encourage human grouping and discourage soloing.

Quote:

Anet has no viable excuse.
-They dont need any excuse. They designed the game.

True. Yet, we are the customers.

Quote:

As it stands adding 7 heroes wont help (some)solo players with the highest end content because not all content can be played by 1 player, even with 7 heroes, 11 heroes, whatever. There will still be content they cannot play that was never designed to be solo-ed.

Don't know what area that might be, though. I have vanquished all areas and can do all dungeons in hardmode today with 3 heroes and 4 henches, even most of UW with just three heroes. Give me 7 heroes and I'm pretty sure I could do any area.

Quote:

Anet wants to use this as a selling point for GW-2
-The interview with Anet has pointed to a much different henchman/hero system, that being they are your "sidekick", with a limit of 1 per player.

Yeah, because they think encouraging grouping and discouraging soloing leads to more loyal customers, who keep playing for longer. I only know it means I wont buy GW2.

Quote:

Hardmode and DOA were never part of what came in the box.

So? If ANet don't want people to use heroes or hench in those areas, then they could do like (it used to be) in FoW and UW, that heroes and hench were banned from entering.

As for me I frankly don't give a damn about the "elite content", ANet can keep it. I'd just like to be able to use decent team builds in the game instead of having to make do with the weak skillsets of henches.