Curse

Gun Pierson · Mar 21, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Haleluia for the resurection of this thread once more!

I know Anet is aware of this thread and the other one as I asked Gaile about it when she was on in LA. The devs think it's a bad idea for balance reasons she replied. (btw I must admit Gaile is very charming ingame)

But how can 7 heroes be more imbalanced than Ursan way. I'm not bashing Ursan, it's just a good counter argument to what the devs say about 7 heroes.

I quote myself:' If it means more fun, there's a good chance Anet will say 'No'.

But really, this is just too important to the pve comunity to let it slip away. Why are you so stubborn on this one Anet? Don't say balance as it becomes insulting at this point.

BlackSephir · Mar 21, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Those who don't PuG will be relieved to not play with....ugh, Failmen -- AKA Henchmen.

Those who do PuG won't be affected.

I don't see why this shouldn't be implimented.

Let's hope people like Aera Lure will enlighten us.

Cathode_Reborn · Mar 21, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

So far, Anet hasn't really given a reason NOT to do this. It's already been made obvious that the 3-hero limit has done nothing but annoy and anger a majority of their players.

If they're really against this idea, they need to come in here and give us a good clear reason for not doing this. Ursan was their lazy way of reviving pugs, and it did work abit. If 7 heroes did decrease the amount of people that pug, why take it away from them? They're playing and enjoying the game the way they want.

Isileth · Mar 21, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I have to say the current reasoning against 7 heroes based on it being "overpowered" is pretty obviousely not true.

Considering a decent human player is better than a hero and also has access to PvE skills and can also split off and act on their own and can also use skills the heroes dont know how to use correctly and can think about where they are going to move/stand and can also combo skills and can also set priorities and can also weapon swap when they want etc etc etc

The reasons people want heroes arent for power but for enjoyment and also to allow greater and quicker access to the game.

You dont have to spend 20 mins trying to get a team you can just go and play.
You dont have to ruin the game for others if you go afk or have to leave.
You dont have to try and negotiate with your team to go and cap a skill thats out of their way.
You can run whatever builds you like.

Current h/h allows a good level of freedom, but you are still restricted in team builds, areas of the game you can access and you also end up a lot weaker than even a semi decent team of players.

7 heroes would allow almost complete freedom with only a few areas requiring more than 8 players being closed off, team builds would be completely open allowing a lot more styles of play and you wouldnt be punished with a much weaker team by going h/h.

Phoenix Tears · Mar 21, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xebedinct

I doubt it will affect PUGers at all, so why all the bitching and moaning?

Because the no whiners and Anet are ignorant fools

, which have no clue, what would be good for the gameplay of GW, making it more fun ...

The Pro Side can absolutley crush every Con-arguement into 1000 pieces ... but Anet just ignores it ...

they say simple "no" and don't argue about it. Thats naturally the most simplest way to avoid to correct failed concepts and not to give themself the shame to say, that their 3-hero only party concept was big shit -.-

Burst Cancel · Mar 21, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I have never heard a credible argument against having seven heroes, and I've argued this issue on and off for a long time. Unfortunately, a change at this point wouldn't help me since I've got nothing left to do in GW that would require heroes.

That said, one possibility is that Anet is clinging to their 'social game' concept Given the current state of PuGs I'd consider it a failure, but I don't have the hard data to make this determination with certainty (Anet, want to fill us in?).

The other (and more likely, IMHO) is that they simply don't want to code it, especially with GW2 in the works.

tmr819 · Mar 21, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

It'd be fun if ArenaNet would run a "Seven-Hero Weekend" sometime, if only just to let players try out the idea--and then check out the feedback on the forums to see how well it was received.

From an interface standpoint, nothing would have to change from what we have now: you'd add your three Heroes and then select your four "Hero-henchmen" in much the way you select Cynn, Devona, et al. now. No individual flags or skill bars for these four.

As I said earlier in this thread, I think GW1 (a game world which is in the process of thinning out and winding down at the moment, since no more substantive content can be expected) would really get a tremendous shot in the arm by introducing a feature like this.

Bryant Again · Mar 21, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I'll keep it short: I am now all for 7 heroes due to the introduction of Ursan Blessing. Earlier, as many could see from this thread, I was against 7 heroes because it would further kill any incentive to PUG. It used to be that the only thing you stood to gain from a full human party were PvE skills, but only a few of them were really worth a slot.

Things have most certainly changed, however. An Ursanway PUG is probably a hell of a lot more convenient (and probably more efficient as well) than that of a group of well-built heroes. So because of UB, I now see nothing wrong with allowing the use of three additional heroes per party.

Now to be a bit more appropriate for the thread and to stray way from anymore of my Anti-UB rants. A 'technical reason' for not having 7 heroes could be party-size oriented: ANet may've testing allowing to have 7 heroes and found a glitch when you were in an outpost that had a party-size less than 8. But that's about all I can think of in-terms of a technical limitation.

lol sup Isileth.

Loviatar · Mar 22, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParanoidDenny

Because they've become full of their own self importance, yours and everybody else's opinion who'd like 7 heroes just does't matter, the ego, arrogance and ignorance of Anet of late is quite typical of somebody who got decent sales of a game franchise and get lulled into the idea they can't do no wrong.

again this is year on tear proven market research.

JEFF STRAIN reminds the conference that the self opinionated forum experts are............

QUOTE

Quote:

Pay close attention to complexity creep. Don't assume that most of your players are reading your website and consuming information about your game. Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it's important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so.

you are a tiny minority so deal with it.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 22, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

you are a tiny minority so deal with it.

This would be true except that a good 90% of intelligent Guild Wars players I've met (read: the non-PUGers) wish we could use 7 heroes or would like the idea. Samples from across the campaigns, across various time zones and servers.

Also, the forums represent most of the elite high-end players, which I believe are what ArenaNet cares most about given their obsession with keeping the high-end economy more important than fun.

Loviatar · Mar 22, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

This would be true except that a good 90% of intelligent Guild Wars players I've met (read: the non-PUGers) wish we could use 7 heroes or would like the idea. Samples from across the campaigns, across various time zones and servers.

Also, the forums represent most of the elite high-end players, which I believe are what ArenaNet cares most about given their obsession with keeping the high-end economy more important than fun.

the elite high end hard core to be polite have been shafted each and every time Anet made a choice between a tiny elite group and the mass of casual non elite play the game for fun casual player.

name one single time starting with guaranteed rune salvage/rune trader to the 3X drop rate increase in superior absorb/superior vigor/celestial sigels for halls that did not make the elite hard core scream right here on gure while most of the player base got more shineys and more copies were sold.

name one single time Anet did something to exclude the casual player from more access to the game and the shineys in it in favor of the tiny hard core elite.

JEFF STRAIN who says the exact opposite

Quote:

Pay close attention to complexity creep. Don't assume that most of your players are reading your website and consuming information about your game. Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it's important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so.

if they catered to the tiny elite the elite hard core wouldnt scream bloody murder every time now would they?

Master Knightfall · Mar 22, 2008, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Oh nooooooesss not another one. One of these threads pops up every 3 to 6 months. They've already said NO hell no and absolutely NO! and people keep bringing it up. It ain't gonna happen people. There's been thousands of reasons but the main one would be the IMBA of the PVE game with 7 heroes that a player could deck out and synergize beyond any balance that is in the game now. I already smoke through Prophecies and Factions with just THREE heroes to give us more we might as well not play at all just bring 7 heroes and watch them slaughter everything. lol

tmr819 · Mar 22, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

The fact of the matter is that if ANet were to poll "the average GW player" with a simple yes or no vote on the use of seven Heroes, I think the 7-Heroes idea would win in a landslide victory.

You (Loviatar) are correct that the percentage of GW players that actually post to forums like this one is no doubt quite small, but it is also practically the only way ANet is ever going to get any specific feedback and suggestions on what its player base likes and doesn't like, wants and doesn't want, so to that extent player opinions are important (or should be) to them.

I could actually see Anet budging on this idea based on the facts that (i) the fan base for GW1 is winding down -- so what could it hurt, really?; (ii) it would not be *that* difficult to implement from a technical standpoint; and (iii) the simple fact that for many, many players it would substantially improve and breathe new life into the game.

Then again, ANet may *want* GW1 to fade away sooner rather than later.

Isileth · Mar 22, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Oh nooooooesss not another one. One of these threads pops up every 3 to 6 months. They've already said NO hell no and absolutely NO! and people keep bringing it up. It ain't gonna happen people. There's been thousands of reasons but the main one would be the IMBA of the PVE game with 7 heroes that a player could deck out and synergize beyond any balance that is in the game now. I already smoke through Prophecies and Factions with just THREE heroes to give us more we might as well not play at all just bring 7 heroes and watch them slaughter everything. lol

1) This is one of the original threads not a new one

2) How would it be overpowered?

A team of 8 players can already run any team build + PvE skills.

7 heroes cant touch anything near that. They have a whole host of AI flaws that makes them worse than players as well.

For example they wont run out of AoE.
They wont know to stand in wards.
They cant combo skills.
They cant even use some skills automatically.
They dont use the best skills at the best time.
They will happily waste heals on minions and ignore the team.
They will take bleeding from a midliner while the monk has daze or the warrior is blind.

etc etc etc

A team of 8 good players is so vastly superior to a team of 7 heroes.

It quite obviousely wouldnt be overpowered.

Bryant Again · Mar 22, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

*snip* There's been thousands of reasons but the main one would be the IMBA of the PVE game with 7 heroes that a player could deck out and synergize beyond any balance that is in the game now.

What could be more overpowered and imbalanced than Ursanway?

Master Knightfall · Mar 22, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

You just listed another group of reasons NOT to do it, because of all the things they won't or can't do. It would eliminate Henchies and Anet built henchies to be used and played WITH heroes and not become OBSOLETE BECAUSE of Heroes. <grin>

Cathode_Reborn · Mar 22, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

There's been thousands of reasons but the main one would be the IMBA of the PVE game with 7 heroes that a player could deck out and synergize beyond any balance that is in the game now. I already smoke through Prophecies and Factions with just THREE heroes to give us more we might as well not play at all just bring 7 heroes and watch them slaughter everything. lol

What's this? Players actually learning the importance of teamwork with skills?? This is blasphemy, this is madness!

While it may be true that Anet isn't doing this because they're worried about 7 hero teams being imba in PvE (big lol), that just goes to show how lazy Anet is, and how badly designed PvE is - the only way they can make it challenging is by purposely giving you 4 henches with horrible builds.

Still though, if Anet cared about keeping the challenge in PvE, why does Ursan exist? Why do Consumables exist? .....O right, cause it's another one of their lazy ways to encourage pugs.

Master Knightfall · Mar 22, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Ursanway is a skill already built into the game, adding more heroes is not something built into the game and would take up a lot more DATA space (all those runes and equipment etc we'd put on them) Henchies have already been built into the game as well. Anet intends Heroes and Henchies to be used together not to obsolete henchies as I said above. It's not so much about being overpower (you still have to have skill to press buttons and use even ursanway it doesn't work by itself) and as I said earlier I can already run most all the chapters with just myself and 3 heroes and when it does get a bit harder the henchies are sufficient without needing or adding more heroes to the game. If they added 3 or 4 more heroes it would obsolete the henchies and they are not going to do that so why even argue it? <grin>

Master Knightfall · Mar 22, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What could be more overpowered and imbalanced than Ursanway?

Just a point here. You still have to "organize" an ursan group it's not like you just logon and there you are in an ursan group so while it does have its overpowered effects it still takes TIME to organize them. And not everyone uses Ursans btw. Whereas with 7 heroes you could log on and be using an overpowered ability immediately and constantly and all the time. Thus, still a big difference in the abilities of Ursans and teaming and 7 Heroes and teaming.

Isileth · Mar 22, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

You just listed another group of reasons NOT to do it, because of all the things they won't or can't do. It would eliminate Henchies and Anet built henchies to be used and played WITH heroes and not become OBSOLETE BECAUSE of Heroes. <grin>

Yeah your right, we didnt think of the henchies. What would happen to them and their kids if we didnt take them with us?

They would still be there and used by people without heroes anyways. But having henchies obsolete is hardly a worrying prospect and not something thats really a concern or a negative to 7 heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Ursanway is a skill already built into the game, adding more heroes is not something built into the game and would take up a lot more DATA space (all those runes and equipment etc we'd put on them) Henchies have already been built into the game as well. Anet intends Heroes and Henchies to be used together not to obsolete henchies as I said above. It's not so much about being overpower (you still have to have skill to press buttons and use even ursanway it doesn't work by itself) and as I said earlier I can already run most all the chapters with just myself and 3 heroes and when it does get a bit harder the henchies are sufficient without needing or adding more heroes to the game. If they added 3 or 4 more heroes it would obsolete the henchies and they are not going to do that so why even argue it? <grin>

Seriousely. Your actually basing your argument on henchies being obsolete? Tell me your joking.

As for it taking up more space, so does the extra storage but we got that. After a long time of Anet saying "No" I might add.

*edit* I was being stupid, how on earth would it take up more space in terms of runes and eq. Its already stored for all the heroes. Just because you can use more wouldnt change that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Just a point here. You still have to "organize" an ursan group it's not like you just logon and there you are in an ursan group so while it does have its overpowered effects it still takes TIME to organize them. And not everyone uses Ursans btw. Whereas with 7 heroes you could log on and be using an overpowered ability immediately and constantly and all the time. Thus, still a big difference in the abilities of Ursans and teaming and 7 Heroes and teaming.

Time taken to organise is not and should not be linked to power. And any overpowered abilities a team of heroes might have would be dwarfed by that of a team of players.