Curse

the_jos · Oct 06, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

What's point of having over 20 different heroes when you're only able to use 3 heroes at a time, for most of time you'll using hero monk, necromancer, and elementalist which left most of the other heroes with other profession hardly ever being use.

The way I use my heroes mainly is I equipped them for the major lines.
So I have one blood, one death and one curses necro, all geared and runed for their attribute.
I use my monk and ele heroes only when I team up with one other player.
Necro will be there, mostly curses, sometime mm.

Quote:

People keep saying having 7 heroes which decrease player interactive with other, some even say that will force everyone to go solo since everyone using heroes. Correction is the people want play in PuG really force other to play PuG whereas if we are able to have 7 heroes doesn't mean that you have to play 7 heroes which you will still have the option of finding PuG, whether or not someone want to form a PuG is entirely up to the people. you can't force people to play with you just because you felt everyone should play in PuG.

I will say this once more, now in somewhat clearer terms:
I do not care about PuGs.
PuGs can go to hell (well, for the sake of this discussion).
7 heroes will also hurt guild and alliance teams.
Not because heroes are always better, but because it's so much easier to team up with them. And they will do the job just fine (see below).

Quote:

Beside there is still going to be big advantage between playing in a group of heroes and group of players. There's some advantage of teaming up with other player that you can't really get from heroes such as intelligence of using strategy and using skill at the right time, well most of us anyway, some player can be less intelligent than hero or henchman for that matter. Well I am sure this quite obvious to most of us.

The main problem here is not the compare between 1+7 heroes vs 8 humans.
Humans win most of the time, period.
It's that the strategic value of a single added human in a balanced hero team is minimal (1/7 -> 2/6). Ok, you get someone who can time skills.
But use more advanced strategy than a 1/7 team? Doubt it. Except when we are talking about picking up items, something heroes can't do.

Heroes are really good at one thing, timing.
Discord GvG team was a good example of that.
Put condition and hex on a enemy in range and 4 heroes would spike at the same time. That's only possible with a practiced human team with voice chat.

So what you get when adding a single human is minimal additional value and someone who is not effective in playing pure hero team builds (that trigger on conditions/hexes and the like).
Add a second human (3 total now) and you can do somewhat more strategical things, but sacrifice ever more hero power.

The thing is, the value of human strategics and timing decreases fast when humans are replaced by AI.
The more AI, the less strategical things you can do.
At the same time, the value of heroes also decrease fast when they are replaced by humans.
The more humans, the less advantage you can take of the 'dumb AI'.

When 7 heroes are allowed, the optimal teams would be either 1 human + 7 heroes or 8 humans.
Then there is a complicating factor.
Hero AI also reacts very fast to enemy AI.
Faster than most humans. They just don't use the right skill at the right time.
This leads to the situation where the 2+6 team is the worst option.
You get a human with not that much strategic value that has most probably a slower reaction time than a hero.
So you sacrefice AI which is good vs AI for someone that is not so good.
The value of humans increases when more heroes are replaced but I think that the value of a 7 hero team would most probably be at around between 4/4 and 5/3. Only after that point humans are more valuable than heroes.
Given that the heroes are used in a team that is tuned to take maximum advantage of the AI.

If you think 2 humans + 6 heroes are superior to 1 human + 7 heroes, both teams optimized for playing in that specific team, please tell me and state why you think that.

Sleeper Service · Oct 06, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

the_jos. you are mixing PvE with PvP and that makes me sad.

It has been repeatedly stated over and over that 7 hero teams would be reserved for PVE, hell even just to PVE HM.

separate pvp and pve please, they are two different gameplay styles.

the_jos · Oct 06, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

No, I am not mixing PvE and PvP.
I only used a PvP example to show the power of heroes, to show why 7 heroes would hurt teaming in general.

Sleeper Service · Oct 06, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

you use pvp as an example an yet you dont mix it?
sure. ok.
how about using a pve example please? that IS what this discussion is about.

Crom The Pale · Oct 06, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

2 live players with 6 Heros is a vast and major difference over 1 player and 7 heros.

For the simple fact that you cut down on having to flag your party by 50%, reduce the number of skill bars your trying to manage and by allowing far greater combinations of stratagy.

Example: 1+7 , live war and a pary with a hero rit, monk, ele, necro, monk, paragon, ranger.
If I want to pull I either have to flag the party, flag the ranger and pick a target, attack, unflag, retreat OR I flag use my war, charge in drawing agro, unflag party, bring monks in with the right skills active to keep me alive and hope the nuker/rit/necro are using the right skills in the right order.

2 + 6, live war, live ranger, Hero monk,ele,necro,paragon,monk,rit

Ranger flags his heros and pulls, war is set to hold agro while he uses his monk/rit/pargon to buff himself. Ranger controls necro/ele for nuking and uses cripple/poison/dust trap to protect them and his monk.

Its clear that the second team will win the fight in half the time, take half the dmg and have much much less of a risk of over agro or bad skill timing(ie rit casts Brutal Weapon on war, monk casts vigorous spirit canceling weapon spell)

The only other main differance between the two is the 10-60minutes the one player will have to wait to find a second person willing to bring the right heros with the right build to accomplish what he wants to do in the time he has to do it.

Sleeper Service · Oct 06, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

...

The only other main differance between the two is the 10-60minutes the one player will have to wait to find a second person willing to bring the right heros with the right build to accomplish what he wants to do in the time he has to do it.

while running the very real risk that the team build will not work and thus "waste" the other persons time.

i have no doubt that if people could TEST out original teams builds with their heroes the overall effect would be positive in the long run. Even the most antisocial person is sociable. its in our nature.

leoknight · Oct 06, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I do not care about PuGs.
PuGs can go to hell (well, for the sake of this discussion).
7 heroes will also hurt guild and alliance teams.

If anyone in your guild prefer choosing heroes over their guildmates, then obviously they are not much of team player to begin with in your guild in the first place which this is apply the same on your alliance team. Once again as I already said before it is the player choice whether they want to go with heroes or other people, at the current state of the game, some quest or mission telling us you must take another person to complete your objective or either you can't do it or have to deal with many deaths in the process to complete the objective.

Oct 08, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Decent human players > hero A.I.

And as Leoknight said, if a guildmate chooses playing with heroes over guildmates then he's not much of a guildmate. I would like full hero teams NOT to replace my friends and guildmates but for those times when they're not around or I'm doing something where I just don't want to bother them with (e.q. wall hugging for Cartography title).

bhavv · Oct 08, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

I came up with a brilliant, and highly original warrior way for hero/hench in GWEN today. For a player that only plays caster classes himself and never plays melee (Hate playing dervs, warriors and sins) I consider this a personal sense of mastery of understanding the skills available in the game. The builds I tried are in the following screenshot:

Strength of Honour signet smiter (Signet of Judgement)
AoE hammer Goren (Earthshaker)
Sword Koss (Dragon Slash)

Talon and Devonna and the two monk henchies.

I originally made this as a joke build cos I was looking over the smiting skills and saw strength of honour and thought, Wouldnt it be great to use that and make it work? So off I went with the 4 warrior AI's and it was unbelievable pwnage (better then Searing flames).

Now you've probably read this and are asking yourself 'What is this noob talking about? What does this have to do with 7 heroes?'

I go to Prophecies or Factions or NF to Vanquish and remember my GW:EN warrior way. Guess what?

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ALL THE FREAKING WARRIOR HENCHMEN USE CHARGE AS THEIR GOD DAMN ELITE.

(And P.S. What other people here think about my builds or the way I choose to play the game is completely Irrelevant, so dont bother with starting the Noob bashing cos you think my builds suck).

Now if I had 7 heroes, I would love to play around with this build and random combinations of 4 melee heroes. (3 warriors? 2 sins and 2 dervs? 2 Spirit strength rits? etc etc etc......). But I cant do this. I cant play and test my own combinations of builds and skill bars. I cant play my combination of which classes I want. I have to be constantly limited by four Henchmen.

Oh, and I never play with other people in the game and never will, because I like to play my own builds and play GW the way I want to play it

<---- Legendary Guardian, Legendary carto, Legendary skill hunter, I'm Very Important with 17 titles maxed.

bryann380 · Oct 09, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Can't believe this topic is still open.

Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further?

Crom The Pale · Oct 09, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Bhavv, I would sugest going with a Rit and Brutal weapon, but the hench monks will just cast enchants and kill it......

I know the feeling you have about the creative combos we can dream up but never actually use.

Bryann380: this topic is open because people wish to talk about it regardless of whether or not Anet changes things or leaves them as is.

bhavv · Oct 09, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

Can't believe this topic is still open.

Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further?

Because we still want 7 heroes? The game is fun when you can customise and play whatever skill bars you like out or the hundreds available.

To make this game perfect for solo play, all they have to do is allow 7 heroes, and of any class. People will be playing PVE constantly then, never getting bored.

I myself want a full 8 elly team with elly healers XD.

pamelf · Oct 09, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Now if I had 7 heroes, I would love to play around with this build and random combinations of 4 melee heroes. (3 warriors? 2 sins and 2 dervs? 2 Spirit strength rits? etc etc etc......). But I cant do this. I cant play and test my own combinations of builds and skill bars. I cant play my combination of which classes I want. I have to be constantly limited by four Henchmen.

Oh, and I never play with other people in the game and never will, because I like to play my own builds and play GW the way I want to play it

I totally agree. Only allowing 3 heroes severely limits my creativity. What i'd love to see is allowing 7 heroes, but also setting up team build templates. Seriously, that would just be the ultimate!

ChaoticCoyote · Oct 09, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

I totally agree. Only allowing 3 heroes severely limits my creativity. What i'd love to see is allowing 7 heroes, but also setting up team build templates. Seriously, that would just be the ultimate!

I'm the same way -- I'd like to try out interesting team builds that simply aren't possible with henchmen.

Adding full hero parties would IMPROVE the social atmosphere by keeping people like me playing -- I can't be very social if I've quit playing.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 09, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

Can't believe this topic is still open.

Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further?

Because if we press the issue enough then we may eventually persuade them to allow seven heroes.

TheLichMonky · Oct 09, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

Can't believe this topic is still open.

Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes. So why debate on it any further?

Uhh because A-net makes horrible decisions? After all this time, I was HOPING for a fix of skills, or the rubber band bug, or SOMETHING that doesn't completely fail ;( BUT you know what they did? They added a reporting system, YaY /sarcasm

Shadowspawn X · Oct 09, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Because if we press the issue enough then we may eventually persuade them to allow seven heroes.

Not really players don't want it either. This is just another auction house issue.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 09, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Not really players don't want it either. This is just another auction house issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Update - Thursday, August 09, 2007

# Ancestors' Rage: This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Anguish: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Defiant Was Xinrae: decreased Energy cost to 5; decreased recharge time to 5 seconds; increased duration to 5..15 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Disenchantment: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Dissonance: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Wanderlust: This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Wielder's Strike: This skill now causes Exhaustion.
# Xinrae's Weapon: decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge to 10 seconds. This skill now causes Exhaustion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Update - Thursday, August 16, 2007

# Ancestors' Rage: decreased casting time to .25 seconds; removed Exhaustion; functionality changed to: "For 1 second, nothing happens. When this Enchantment ends, all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 30..130 lightning damage."
# Anguish: reverted skill to its original behavior.
# Defiant Was Xinrae: reverted skill to its original behavior.
# Disenchantment: reverted skill to its original behavior.
# Dissonance: reverted skill to its original behavior.
# Wanderlust: reverted skill to its original behavior.
# Wielder's Strike: increased recharge time to 6 seconds; decreased unconditional damage to 5..50; decreased conditional damage to 10..40; removed exhaustion.
# Xinrae's Weapon: reverted skill to its original behavior.

It may happen if we are persistent enough. (Granted, the exhaustion nerf was a terrible idea in the first place, but then, so is the cap on heroes.)

wilebill · Oct 09, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

How about just one more hero? I don't see how that would hurt grouping any further, and it would add much more flexibility.

I would be happy with just one more hero.

Sleeper Service · Oct 09, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

This is not a petition, and neither is it a rant against Anet. This Thread is a discussion on 7 heroes, nuance mon ami.

I myself read pretty much every single post that is made here and have seen some excellent points made for and against, the probable reasons behind Anets decision for not enabling this feature and am conforted in my GAMERS vision of the game concerning team-builds and PUGing.

All in all it (still and hopefully will not) has not degenerated into your usually cry for 7heroes thread.

Even if it was closed someone would start a new thread. we need to vent our viewpoint and discuss on this it's probably one of the major issues in GW1 for a lot of players.