Curse

Sparks Dawnbringer · Sep 28, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I would like to use 7 heros. It is often useless to take henches in hard mode.
they end up with -60dp all too soon when the rest of the heros ar fine. I don't always go it alone but usually go with one other person and heros. I got all thers heros why not let me use them.

lyra_song · Sep 28, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

I would like the ability to use all the skills ive unlocked with my PvE character.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like to create a new character and instantly have all the zones my other characters have explored.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like free gold, armor and weapons.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like permanent IAS, +armor, + energy regen, + health regen, + permanent insta-res (like those Nymphs in Charrland...wtf is up with them?).
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I would like more than 1 elite in my skillbar.
It would be nice.
It wouldnt harm your gameplay because you dont have to use it.

I can keep going with absurd ideas....

Adding more heroes doesn't just affect those who use that option. It affects the game. This isnt a simple increase of heroes.

Its a GUI change. EVERYONE uses the same gui.
Its a GAMEPLAY change. Like ive mentioned, it changes the gameplay radically from an MMO and towards more of a RTS. I think this is the most negative effect of this.
It doesnt address the issues that people have brought up as to why they want it in the first place.

And YES, how YOU play the game affects those around you because you are not playing with others.

Isileth · Sep 29, 2007, 12:20 AM // 00:20

The difference with your ideas lyra is the unbalance they cause between people who use them and people who dont.

7 heroes + 1 player isnt more powerful than 8 players.
Having 2 elites is more powerful than having one.

See the difference?

lyra_song · Sep 29, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The difference with your ideas lyra is the unbalance they cause between people who use them and people who dont.

7 heroes + 1 player isnt more powerful than 8 players.
Having 2 elites is more powerful than having one.

See the difference?

You dont see having 7 heroes as imbalanced?

I can justify all those ideas as not imbalanced simply by saying that it doesnt affect you at all if you choose not to use it.

Isileth · Sep 29, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Good lord, havent we already established it isnt overpowered? A team of 8 good players is better than 7 heroes and a player.

Heroes dont pre kite
Heroes stand in AoE
Heroes dont stay in wards
Heroes cant combo skills
Heroes waste ints on unimportant spells
Heroes will cast spells like MS with 1 enemy left
Heroes will walk straight through traps
Heroes cant automatically maintain enchantments
Heroes will happily aggro other groups mid fight

Still think 7 heroes are imbalanced?
Good players will always make better teams than 7 heroes.

Vinraith · Sep 29, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

You dont see having 7 heroes as imbalanced?

PUG < 1 good player and H/H < 1 good player and 7 heroes < 2 good players and 6 heroes < 8 good players

So no, I really don't. I don't really understand why you do.

Burst Cancel · Sep 29, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

And YES, how YOU play the game affects those around you because you are not playing with others.

This argument is without merit. The principle you are using is, "people should be forced to do something they don't want to do, in order to allow others to do what they want to do." If this were a valid line of reasoning, rape wouldn't be a crime.

Assume there are eight people in a mission town, and the mission is designed for eight people. Seven of those eight people want to play alone, and one of those people wants to play with other people. Should those seven people be forced to play with the one?

Arguably valid arguments exist for not allowing seven heroes (e.g., it's imba). However, this is not one of them.

Havre Fras · Sep 29, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Good lord, havent we already established it isnt overpowered? A team of 8 good players is better than 7 heroes and a player.

Heroes dont pre kite
Heroes stand in AoE
Heroes dont stay in wards
Heroes cant combo skills
Heroes waste ints on unimportant spells
Heroes will cast spells like MS with 1 enemy left
Heroes will walk straight through traps
Heroes cant automatically maintain enchantments
Heroes will happily aggro other groups mid fight

Still think 7 heroes are imbalanced?
Good players will always make better teams than 7 heroes.

Bravo! Bravo! An excellent post IMO! Sums up pretty much why having 7 heroes is no way overpowered than 8 players. Once again, bravo!

Quoting again for effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Good lord, havent we already established it isnt overpowered? A team of 8 good players is better than 7 heroes and a player.

Heroes dont pre kite
Heroes stand in AoE
Heroes dont stay in wards
Heroes cant combo skills
Heroes waste ints on unimportant spells
Heroes will cast spells like MS with 1 enemy left
Heroes will walk straight through traps
Heroes cant automatically maintain enchantments
Heroes will happily aggro other groups mid fight

Still think 7 heroes are imbalanced?
Good players will always make better teams than 7 heroes.

Star Gazer · Sep 29, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

lyra just wants everyone to be in this happy-go-lucky state of mind where everyone gets along with everyone. I am sorry, but until you limit this game to noone under 21, that will NOT happen. and no, I dont just want it for the 'elite' areas of the game. That was an EXAMPLE. I want it so that I can actually vanquish a zone without rage-quitting after -60dps for 1 hour straight. you think a pug would last to -30? if you say yes, your lying to yourself and you should delete your username on this forum and disconnect your internet.

not enough people do HM. period. not enough people do elite areas. period. people do not care about what others want, inside or outside of the game. why you seem so adament on hindering our play style is just beyond me. you are one of THE most arrogant people I have ever met, and you are just arguing for arguments sake.

7 heros make nothing "imba". You dont get better drops. You dont get any inherrited bonus. What you do get is a team that you can put together, and not have someone calling your build a dumb one. You do get to go afk when you need to be. This reporting feature that they have installed (while I agree, FA has turned into nothing but leechers), they have ruined any chance (if there was one) of me doing PvP or teaming with pugs in pve. I have YET (as I stated at the beginning of this thread) to see a valid reason why this should not be implemented. you attack personal playstyles and have no reason to support yours.

btw, that crap that you posted about all the bonuses you would like, that made me lol. that isnt even part of the issue.

lyra_song · Sep 29, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This argument is without merit. The principle you are using is, "people should be forced to do something they don't want to do, in order to allow others to do what they want to do." If this were a valid line of reasoning, rape wouldn't be a crime.

Thanks for misunderstanding and twisting my words into a perverted metaphor....People should not be forced to do anything...gee...where did i say that?

But people who contribute nothing affect others around them negatively by contributing nothing.

Quote:

Assume there are eight people in a mission town, and the mission is designed for eight people. Seven of those eight people want to play alone, and one of those people wants to play with other people. Should those seven people be forced to play with the one?

Arguably valid arguments exist for not allowing seven heroes (e.g., it's imba). However, this is not one of them.

They may as well just unplug from the internet and play a 1 player version of GW. Which is exactly what the suggestion is asking.

This isn't as simple as, you just wanting a little thing so you can play by yourself for your own convenience. While it seems like a humble little request, this is a change to the game environment and the player dynamics by removing the need to be with other players. Sure the option is there for players to team up, but in such an environment, what player would?

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything except think about what you're asking for outside of your own gains.

--------------------

As for heroes being imbalanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Heroes dont pre kite
Heroes stand in AoE
Heroes dont stay in wards
Heroes cant combo skills
Heroes waste ints on unimportant spells
Heroes will cast spells like MS with 1 enemy left
Heroes will walk straight through traps
Heroes cant automatically maintain enchantments
Heroes will happily aggro other groups mid fight

Yes they cant do any of that....yet....people want them.

Why is that? Surely there must be an advantage? If it wasnt imbalanced to begin with, why would you want it?

The advantage to a 7 hero system is more than obvious. Total control. Its like multi-boxing (as ive mentioned). Yes its VERY cool.

But i dont really think that its Guild Wars anymore....

Quote:

btw, that crap that you posted about all the bonuses you would like, that made me lol. that isnt even part of the issue.

Its supposed to be funny. People have made similar things to those very suggestions using the same exact mindset.

Star Gazer, youre right, not enough people do HM. Maybe we should be focused on THAT problem.

OT: Yes i argue for fun. This is fun for me, so lets keep talking.

Burst Cancel · Sep 29, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Thanks for misunderstanding and twisting my words into a perverted metaphor....People should not be forced to do anything...gee...where did i say that?

But people who contribute nothing affect others around them negatively by contributing nothing.

You're just rephrasing your statement, the original principle hasn't changed. Again, someone who refuses to have sex affects others around them negatively by contributing nothing to people not being able to have sex. Although there is a difference in scale, the situations are analogous; this is not a twist in any way, but rather a valid reductio ad absurdum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

They may as well just unplug from the internet and play a 1 player version of GW. Which is exactly what the suggestion is asking.

What they "may as well" do is irrelevant to the current discussion, because it says nothing about why they shouldn't play single-player. This is especially true since many people already play single-player with heroes and henchmen - the implementation of seven-hero parties would only be for their convenience, at the detriment of essentially no one else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

This isn't as simple as, you just wanting a little thing so you can play by yourself for your own convenience. While it seems like a humble little request, this is a change to the game environment and the player dynamics by removing the need to be with other players. Sure the option is there for players to team up, but in such an environment, what player would?

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything except think about what you're asking for outside of your own gains.

You've brought to light the fundamental issue here, albeit indirectly. Specifically, "in such an environment, what player would [team up]?" This statement implies (correctly, I think) that people prefer heroes to PuGs. Given that heroes are, in fact, quite poor to begin with at all but the most mundane styles of play, this suggests that the problem lies with PuGs. As I stated above, the game has already reached the point where many would rather play hero/hench than PuG. In other words, the cause is already lost.

You fail to see this because you are mixing cause and effect. Heroes were implemented so that people who didn't want to PuG would have another option. Heroes didn't kill PuGs, they were introduced in response to PuGs already being dead. The people who want seven heroes wouldn't PuG even if heroes were removed. A fair number of us have been henching or guild-teaming things since Prophecies.

Ideally, you should never need other players, because that, by definition, restricts your freedom of play. A perfect system would allow all options of play to coexist. Unfortunately, that seems beyond the reach of practical implementation. However, I am at least glad that Anet has thus far has recognized the idea of freedom of play; now, they need only take that idea to its logical conclusion.

Finally, I similarly ask you consider what you are asking for. Someone who wants to play with other people necessarily requires people to play with them. What if nobody wants to play with them? The wants of these players would place a disproportionate and unreasonable burden on others who just want to be left to their own peace.

lyra_song · Sep 29, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Very good burst. I'll need to think about this a bit. ill get bakc to you.

Isileth · Sep 29, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

What is the advantage lyra? Thats a good question. One that we should have summed up early on in the discussion.

Thankfully we did. Feel free to check back but if not ill give a quick recap here.

Now while im not going to dig through and quote it all I will again list the main points (There are more but these are the main reasons to me).

No waiting time to form a team.

For a casual player who only has maybe 30-45 mins to play spending 10 on getting a team is a huge chunk of playtime gone. With 7 heroes people can spend more time playing the game and less time waiting to play.

You can go afk when you need to.

With players you cant expect people to wait for you while you go afk multiple times during the same mission. With 7 heroes they will be there when you get back.

Those are the 2 main points for me.

Now the obvious question from there would be why do you need 7 heroes when you have h/h?

Why? Because h/h is, to put it simply, not great.
Its extremely underpowered when compared to a team of 8 players. Outside of GW:EN the henchies have shocking builds, they dont even have 8 skills! Even in GW:EN most builds are fairly poor.
This means someone that is unable to pug is playing with a huge disadvantage.

Adding 7 heroes means people playing with heroes will be on a much closer playingfield to that of a team of 8 players. While it will never be as good, its a feature that is already partially ingame and would allow the casual player to play without being punished with weaker teams because they cant pug.

Now another big point although less than the previous two in my opinion.

Allowing casual players access to more of the game.

Im going to take HM as my example here, but it applies to the elite areas as well (Although some due to their nature cant be completed with 1 player, still a lot more of the game is opened up).

HM with the awful hench builds really isnt worth thinking about. So that leaves you with getting a team of players. Instantly a problem for the first 2 reasons. Lets assume however you have time and you know you wont get interrupted.

So to get a team for HM. Well in most areas there arent even enough people to get a team, let alone enough people doing HM to get a team, let alone enough people doing HM who happen to include the required proffesions.

So that doesnt work, lets try our guild/alliance. Ah your a casual player so you arent in a hardcore HM guild, sure you could leave and join one...but is being forced to join specific guilds just to play half the game really the way to do things?

Ok so lets try arranging a team on a forum. Well your a casual player so you cant arrange to be on at a set time, as a casual player you might not even know any GW forums! Also should players have to arrange to play the game? Why cant they just play it?

Ok now lets imagine we have 7 heroes. You log on, add your heroes, play.
If you need to log off or go afk your not ruining the game for anyone else, you can come back and play when it suits you.

Surely you can see how much that would help people out?

(As you can see my whole reasoning behind this is how it helps the casual player out, others have different opinions on why they think 7 heroes would be good for the game but im not going into them because...well they arent my opinions

. But it does go to show it doesnt just help 1 group of players, it helps a lot)

arcanemacabre · Sep 29, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

I have a simple solution - allow 7 heroes, but only allow the micro-management and individual flags of the first three. So essentially, we are allowed to choose 4 heroes that act as henchmen, except customized (builds/equipment). This solves any "god control" and "GUI clutter" problems, and makes them slightly less powerful than straight heroes since we wouldn't be able to control their every move.

Fair deal?

bhavv · Sep 29, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I have a simple solution - allow 7 heroes, but only allow the micro-management and individual flags of the first three. So essentially, we are allowed to choose 4 heroes that act as henchmen, except customized (builds/equipment). This solves any "god control" and "GUI clutter" problems, and makes them slightly less powerful than straight heroes since we wouldn't be able to control their every move.

Fair deal?

This has been suggested soooo many times.... Why dont you read the other....

Oh wait, isnt that what you always say? XD

arcanemacabre · Sep 29, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

This has been suggested soooo many times.... Why dont you read the other....

Oh wait, isnt that what you always say? XD

It has? I do?

You're making this up, aren't you?

bhavv · Sep 29, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

It has? I do?

You're making this up, aren't you?

XD, nvm, at least your on the right side of the disscussion.

Yay for 7 heroes, if it ever happens.

Mineria · Sep 29, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

7 Heroes will give more advantage to:

1. players spending a lot of time capping and buying skills
2. players buying PvP editions from the online shop

Where does that leave the casual players?
And what about the players that only got Prophecies or Factions?

I think that you can afford to buy every skill from the skill trainer, capping all elite skills, being able to afford elite armor on several characters and even getting some gold weapons which some people only can dream about should be enough.
If that still isn't reward enough for all your time played, you should play a game like WoW instead, and get into Tier 7.

Gattocheese · Sep 29, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

If they put in 7 heros i wouldnt really care.

But i would have to say no. I am gonna take a big swallow and say that I agree with Gaile Grey.

Isileth · Sep 29, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

7 Heroes will give more advantage to:

1. players spending a lot of time capping and buying skills
2. players buying PvP editions from the online shop

Where does that leave the casual players?
And what about the players that only got Prophecies or Factions?

I think that you can afford to buy every skill from the skill trainer, capping all elite skills, being able to afford elite armor on several characters and even getting some gold weapons which some people only can dream about should be enough.
If that still isn't reward enough for all your time played, you should play a game like WoW instead, and get into Tier 7.

Ok im sorry but I dont quite understand what you mean with your comments on affording armour and weapons. But ill reply to your other points.

People who have more skill unlocked obviousely have an advantage. They have more skills. Its as simple as that. Doesnt matter how many heroes they have, if they have more skill unlocked they have an advantage.
But anyone, even a casual player, can unlock 56 skills and 8 elites fairly easily. So its not a problem that they have more skills, its very easy to unlock the important ones for the builds you want to run.

As for people who dont own a game containing heroes. Well they dont own it do they? If they want heroes they can purchase the game like everyone else.

*Edit*

Gatto can you explain why you agree with Gaile?