Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 02, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

How bad can you get at the game?

More like, how bad of a team can you get?

The main reason for syncing is that people hated getting teamed up with people using PvE characters with a skill bar of Power Attack, Frenzy, Dolyak Signet, and Flare. Personally I prefer to just enter, play if there's a good team, resign and wait for game end if there isn't, but syncing was more efficient.

Srak Scream · Sep 02, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

4v4 meta in general is shit

cant wait for sealed deck, if done properly will be a true test of skill

pinguinius · Sep 02, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Not enough people play anymore to entirely get rid of syncing without fundamentally changing the way groups are formed.

I recently got an RA team on my monk with another monk. We both /resigned and waited to be killed. Then, we likely immediately searched again, ending up with us both on the same team for a second time. We resigned again, died, and for a third time got on the same team the next round. This wasn't at odd hours, either, it was in the US districts at around 8:00 local time.

So basically, if you get 4+ guild members/friends searching at the same time, they're likely going to get in the same game even with this change.

My New Name · Sep 02, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

In the end it wasn't a very useful update,was it?

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 02, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelorin Eshmar

In the end it wasn't a very useful update,was it?

It's pretty embarrassing?

They make a big announcement about changes that will be made with some tough decisions. Then a few days later they have actually "fixed ra syncing", but they have not! Wow, that's a big /facepalm right there.

I've never posted as much on guru as I have these past few days. I've always thought anet was more or less in control of the changes they make but now it seems its derailing completely.

They are removing TA because they lack resources to balance it properly? They could smiters boon stonesoul strike/holy strike and the arena would be perfectly playable. Those skills are used NO WHERE ELSE. Not even in pve!

And wtf is up with the latest buffs? LC at 5e and 10r and they end up having to nerf it to 15e and reduced effect and it's still playable. It seems they want to completely change up the gameplay. They are nearly desperate to force casters and assassins into play. Broken hexes and a lot of random buffs to sin skills that somehow end up being better utilized on rangers!

If all pvp'ers were given a poll I'm sure the vast majority would just smiters boon sins out of the game completely. The class seems only favored by "narutos" and I don't even know what naruto means. Does it really take that much resources to roll back the latest skill update? The fact that the r/a template is being (ab)used across ALL pvp formats should be a clear indicator it's OP? Yes? No?

Master Ketsu · Sep 02, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

They are removing TA because they lack resources to balance it properly?

Ya, I know, its ludicrous. They only need to change 15 or so skills to save TA, most of which are problems in other formats as well as TA.

To repost what I suggested in the TA forums:

================================================== ============

Foul Feast: 0...1...2 energy. Max 5 energy gained. ( Would also help HA and GvG )

Plague sending: 5E, 12R -or- 2 sec cast time.

August skill update 2009: Revert it. ( Would also Help HA and GvG )

-ALL No att/unlinked shadow step skills- : Move to critical strikes, 50% failure with CS 4 or less. ( Would also Help pretty much every pvp format there is )

Shove: Fails if you are enchanted.

Visions of regret: Conditional damage negation applied to all hexes, not just Mesmer ones. ( Would also Help HA and GvG )

Distortion: Duration based on illusion, energy loss based on Fast casting. ( or some similar nerf that causes the skill to be only usable by Me/ ) ( Would also Help HA and GvG)

Mind blast: 0...3...6 energy. ( Would also Help HA and GvG )

Primal Rage: Smiters boon. ( Would also Help HA and GvG )

Shield Bash: 3 sec duration @ 0 strength. ( Would also Help HA and GvG )

================================================== ============

None of these are really that hard to understand.

moriz · Sep 02, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

the last skill update was the perfect example of why sin skills should never be buffed. the R/A builds with fast dagger attacks is beyond ridiculous. i mean, if those buffs were meant for pve use, then make them pve only changes.

Still Number One · Sep 02, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the last skill update was the perfect example of why sin skills should never be buffed. the R/A builds with fast dagger attacks is beyond ridiculous. i mean, if those buffs were meant for pve use, then make them pve only changes.

I'd say the fact that they pretty much have perma 75% blocking is the reason they are OP and not really the dagger skills. The dagger skills certainly contributed to it and obviously pushed the build from being good to OP, but I don't see a sin using that chain as a major threat. It is only a large enough threat to actually see significant playtime because of the stances. I think if you make escape end on non-bow attacks, the build is no longer OP.

Windf0rce · Sep 02, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

just smiters boon sins out of the game completely

I lol'd.

/agree

And I love it how the smiter's boon nerf became such a classic.

moriz · Sep 02, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I'd say the fact that they pretty much have perma 75% blocking is the reason they are OP and not really the dagger skills. The dagger skills certainly contributed to it and obviously pushed the build from being good to OP, but I don't see a sin using that chain as a major threat. It is only a large enough threat to actually see significant playtime because of the stances. I think if you make escape end on non-bow attacks, the build is no longer OP.

the build can execute its full combo in approximately 2-3 seconds, and it recharges in around 2 seconds also. although the damage is generally not fatal, its sheer speed as well as its general invulnerability makes it seriously OP.

remember, the same template has been around for ages, using roughly the same skills. it's only after the fast activating dagger attacks came into play that really pushed it over the top.

Still Number One · Sep 02, 2009, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the build can execute its full combo in approximately 2-3 seconds, and it recharges in around 2 seconds also. although the damage is generally not fatal, its sheer speed as well as its general invulnerability makes it seriously OP.

remember, the same template has been around for ages, using roughly the same skills. it's only after the fast activating dagger attacks came into play that really pushed it over the top.

I agree and I acknowledged it by saying it was a good bar that was made OP by the fast activations of the attack skills. But if you make the rangers more vulnerable by effecting their ability to upkeep their defense almost 24/7, their threat is almost completely negated.

They have the ability to cause bleeding, cripple, and exhaustion as well as the ability to spam AoE damage. However, they do not have a reliable source of deep wound (if you bring impale you probably lose your snare) and they have no knock down ability. I believe if you get rid of their ability to have almost perma defense, you make them significantly less effective than a warrior would be at killing.

They kill through constant pressure and the fact that it is impossible for anything but blind and hexes to relieve that pressure is why we deem them OP.

Sure you can get rid of the 1/2 activation of the attack skills and hurt their ability to kill (which could kill the bar) or you could decrease their ability to stay alive (which I believe would also kill the bar).

I personally favor making them more vulnerable as opposed to making it harder for them to kill. But as the build annoys me, I would welcome either change to it.

zelgadissan · Sep 03, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Escape has been a gimmick-based elite for ages, I remember seeing teams with multiple R/D Escape scythes in Tombs at least a year ago, I think maybe closer to two. I still don't understand why it doesn't end on attack, but I suppose that's quite off-topic.

I'm hoping (keyword: hoping) that this was a test by Anet to see how their first plan would work - by announcing syncing was dead, they would assume everybody would go try even harder to sync, which hopefully gives them the data they need to fix it for good. Sadly though, I think I might be giving Anet far too much credit.

Master Ketsu · Sep 03, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I don't know how many times I have repeated this, but Escape is not the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing reason for sway and all ranger builds associated with it being overpowered. The only reason those builds use Escape is because they have no need for a real elite. Escape is filler. The current R/A Dagger version needs no elite because the low recharge and fast attacks give Rangers the ability of Mobius strike-Blossom spam without actually having to use mobius strike. With the previous R/D version, Escape was used because low cost derv skills and pious assault allowed for deep wound spam and high damage without Wounding strike. Escape is a filler elite that allows rangers who are using overpowered non-elite combos to rush in and spam said overpowered combos.

In other words, escape if anything is actually an underpowered skill. The reason for those builds being overpowered is the attack chains they use, not escape. If escape was changed to end on attack, it would never see the light of day on the bar of any semi competent player. Instead, rangers would just rework their build to use natural stride and add in some other elite to make up for it ( R/A would use Assault or shatter, no doubt. Some already do. )

Stop saying escape is the problem. It isn't. It never was. You are bad and should feel bad for thinking it is.

zelgadissan · Sep 03, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

I never said Escape was the problem - I agree the much bigger issue is the dagger chains, and I'm fully aware that a lot of teams have advanced to two Escapes and an Assault - my point is that nearly constant 33% IMS and 75% block on top of 1/2c chains just adds to the retardedness of the build. When combined it's basically pre-nerf Primal Rage without double damage.

The only time it gets used is for gimmick builds, so where's the problem with getting rid of it at the same time as these ridiculous 1/2 activation attacks? (BTW I know I'm bad

)

*lemming* · Sep 03, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

I don't know how many times I have repeated this, but Escape is not the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing reason for sway and all ranger builds associated with it being overpowered. The only reason those builds use Escape is because they have no need for a real elite. Escape is filler. The current R/A Dagger version needs no elite because the low recharge and fast attacks give Rangers the ability of Mobius strike-Blossom spam without actually having to use mobius strike. With the previous R/D version, Escape was used because low cost derv skills and pious assault allowed for deep wound spam and high damage without Wounding strike. Escape is a filler elite that allows rangers who are using overpowered non-elite combos to rush in and spam said overpowered combos.

In other words, escape if anything is actually an underpowered skill. The reason for those builds being overpowered is the attack chains they use, not escape. If escape was changed to end on attack, it would never see the light of day on the bar of any semi competent player. Instead, rangers would just rework their build to use natural stride and add in some other elite to make up for it ( R/A would use Assault or shatter, no doubt. Some already do. )

Stop saying escape is the problem. It isn't. It never was. You are bad and should feel bad for thinking it is.

People ran Jagged/Fox Fangs/Blossom on sin primaries the first couple days of the update.

It was awful.

Still Number One · Sep 03, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

I don't know how many times I have repeated this, but Escape is not the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing reason for sway and all ranger builds associated with it being overpowered. The only reason those builds use Escape is because they have no need for a real elite. Escape is filler. The current R/A Dagger version needs no elite because the low recharge and fast attacks give Rangers the ability of Mobius strike-Blossom spam without actually having to use mobius strike. With the previous R/D version, Escape was used because low cost derv skills and pious assault allowed for deep wound spam and high damage without Wounding strike. Escape is a filler elite that allows rangers who are using overpowered non-elite combos to rush in and spam said overpowered combos.

In other words, escape if anything is actually an underpowered skill. The reason for those builds being overpowered is the attack chains they use, not escape. If escape was changed to end on attack, it would never see the light of day on the bar of any semi competent player. Instead, rangers would just rework their build to use natural stride and add in some other elite to make up for it ( R/A would use Assault or shatter, no doubt. Some already do. )

Stop saying escape is the problem. It isn't. It never was. You are bad and should feel bad for thinking it is.

If the attack chain was the problem then why don't people use it on assassins instead of R/A's?

It is because the chain really isn't that good. It is just very effective at pressure over time due to the fact that it activates them so quickly and often as well as having the ability to cause exhaustion. However in order for that pressure to kick in, they actually have to stay alive. The 8 second upkeep and 4 second downtime of escape allows them to do this, and if they get into trouble during those 4 seconds they can active lightning reflexes to save them. Without the ability to be able to permanently block 75% of the physical damage done to them, they would take too much damage and would not be able to effectively pressure. That is what linebacking is for after all, to relieve pressure.

If you give the enemy a window of opportunity to kill you, you will die. Escape pretty much keeps that window permanently shut and allows them to do their damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

People ran Jagged/Fox Fangs/Blossom on sin primaries the first couple days of the update.

It was awful.

This.

Tearz1993 · Sep 03, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

remember, the same template has been around for ages, using roughly the same skills. it's only after the fast activating dagger attacks came into play that really pushed it over the top.

IMO the thing that makes it over the top is the inability to capitalize on positioning mistakes AND the ability to split without fear of dying (unless they're absolutely retarded). I mean sure the dagger attacks are powerful, but people wouldn't run the dagger skills without escape.

Perfected Shadow · Sep 03, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

If the attack chain was the problem then why don't people use it on assassins instead of R/A's?

Because to kill with that chain (no deep wound), you have to use it over and over. Expertise permits that. I'd think it'd be very hard to do with a sin even when using critical eye for example.

So the problem is the combination of expertise, fast activation/spammable dagger chain, and blocking to stay alive?

Still Number One · Sep 03, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

So the problem is the combination of expertise, fast activation/spammable dagger chain, and blocking to stay alive?

Yes, and because anet most likely will never nerf expertise, one of the other two components will have to be touched.

FoxBat · Sep 03, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Jagged->Fox mashing isn't really any better than moebius spam (barring orders/weapons that aren't used in half the builds). The difference is moebius is elite, which prevents you from using.... (dun dun dun) ESCAPE (or assault enchants but meh....)