Curse

JR · Oct 02, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

- We will manually pick the winning skill bars.
- We do want robust, general purpose builds, not some niche meta builds or builds that will not be immediately made obsolete by meta shifts.
- Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked

Not to rain on the parade, but I wish the above had actually been the case.

Looking past the fact that some of the bars are simply sub-par, there are some very rookie looking mistakes. To pick one immediately obvious one: Frenzy on an AI character?

That's not quite my biggest issue with the choices, though. To illustrate, another example: The Mindblast/Distortion hench. I get that perhaps you wanted to be cute, putting a controversial and well known bar on a hench, but it's a little pointless. It's a split bar, on a character that is always going to be useless on split.

Then you have Ward vs Foes and Grasping on a hench, skills to snare runners... but it's a hench, so you next to no control over when or where they will use them.

Magebane Ranger. Ok, we are at least getting into the realm of effective here, but an AI character who's sole job is to interrupt?

I can deal with sub-par, that's fine (they only have to be so effective, and the most optimal builds are usually meta-builds), but when you are making really obviously bad choices, I think that's too much of a price to pay for being entertaining and involving people. The winners should have been very well rounded and general purpose, even if that meant sacrificing some of their impact.

The contest was a nice idea. You got a lot of entries, and a whole bunch of people felt like they were part of the development. That's great, but frankly I was hoping you had a list of solid bars already written up, and were just waiting for someone to submit something simmilar enough.

lutz · Oct 02, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Not to rain on the parade, but I wish the above had actually been the case.

Looking past the fact that some of the bars are simply sub-par, there are some very rookie looking mistakes. To pick one immediately obvious one: Frenzy on an AI character?

That's not quite my biggest issue with the choices, though. To illustrate, another example: The Mindblast/Distortion hench. I get that perhaps you wanted to be cute, putting a controversial and well known bar on a hench, but it's a little pointless. It's a split bar, on a character that is always going to be useless on split.

Then you have Ward vs Foes and Grasping on a hench, skills to snare runners... but it's a hench, so you next to no control over when or where they will use them.

Magebane Ranger. Ok, we are at least getting into the realm of effective here, but an AI character who's sole job is to interrupt?

I can deal with sub-par, that's fine (they only have to be so effective, and the most optimal builds are usually meta-builds), but when you are making really obviously bad choices, I think that's too much of a price to pay for being entertaining and involving people.

The contest was a nice idea. You got a lot of entries, and a whole bunch of people felt like they were part of the development. That's great, but frankly I was hoping you had a list of solid bars already written up, and were just waiting for someone to submit something simmilar enough.

Grasping & Foes aren't too bad; they still serve a defensive purpose minimally.

The really bad ones are:

1. Frenzy
2. Infuse
3. Make Haste/Song of Concentration
4. Death's Charge on a Hammer Warrior
5. That Cripshot Bar (A big "WTF" should light up)
6. Illusion of Pain
7. A Sin Combo that requires a Knockdown
8. Mending Refrain

ArenaNet didn't clearly think through their AI, or we're in for some massive AI changes. (best infusers in the game?)

Shasgaliel · Oct 02, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

nooooooooo At first I was going to copy all pvx wiki but then I read the contest rules and changed my mind. The man who said that "the first thought is often the best" was a wise one. Or maybe I misread the rules and the actual contest was actually who copies the pvx first?

Big Gratz to all those who submitted their own builds and won regardless if builds are good or bad!

Longasc · Oct 02, 2009, 10:42 AM // 10:42

I cannot understand them.
I assumed they wanted bars that could be played well by henchmen and their limited AI.

Giving Death Pact Signet and Frenzy to henchmen?
Of course this could be topped, putting Death Pact Signet AND Frenzy on the same henchies bar. :>

Have Assassin Heroes somehow learnt to use their skills in sequence in the meantime?
Can heroes suddenly make strategic decisions when to use crucial snares?
I guess we can already predict the builds of this contest that will never be picked at all.

I hope they show some better taste when picking the names of the henchmen.

Symeon · Oct 02, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

lol @ people who still think anet picked these bars for their effectiveness. They arent that stupid. The entire point of this move was to kill heroes - this contest is nothing but a diversion.

If this was their intention, why did they spend weeks being 'ridiculously busy' choosing from tens of thousands of entries? No, I don't believe ANet are clever enough to deliberately pick bars the AI can't run so that nobody will use them. I believe they chose them because they don't have a clue.

I can imagine the Live Team sitting around a table for hours discussing the merits of each build that would only apply if they were run by humans. They probably didn't spend a minute considering how AI would cope with them.

Oh, and most of the bars look like they were copied straight from PvXwiki; so much for the 'originality' demanded in the rules.

It all comes down to this: ANet don't play their own game.

Congrats to the winners. I'm glad I didn't bother entering this contest.

Killed u man · Oct 02, 2009, 11:03 AM // 11:03

THIS IS BULLSHIT.

The point of the contest was to post VIABLE builds which Heroes/Henchies could use.

EVERY warrior bar has frenzy/primal rage. Heroes do NOT use these skills proporly.

EVERY bar in the contest is currently known, or was known, as a meta bar, with 1-2 skills altered, or sometimes not even at all.

THIS IS COMPLETE AND UTTER BS AS TO WHAT THE STATED RULES WERE.

If they would have said: "Ok, simply post PvX wiki builds, and we'll select a random winner", I would have done so.

But the worst part is: THE BARS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING SUCK.

Heroes do NOT use balanced stances, nor infuse health, nor gash correctly. They don't use flesh, shock, plague touch correctly.

The hammer hero will use hammer bash before he used dev hammer.

I thought the intire point was to post a build which will pose no problem for a hero to run. They never said they were going to make an intire AI for the given skill bars.

For HA:

SOMEONE ACTUALLY UPLOADED A THUMPER BAR. Seriosuly, I have to see "my possibly winning spot" taken by a THUMPER? THIS IS NOT EVEN ALLOWED!

Rant Over:

Quote:

- We do want robust, general purpose builds, not some niche meta builds or builds that will not be immediately made obsolete by meta shifts.

Like a LC necro, or a Bsurge ele?

Quote:

Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked

Like 99% of the skill bars that won?

FROM THE OFFICIAL RULES:

Quote:

Originality:Every skill bar posted is/was a meta build, and easily to be found on PvXwiki

I just can't believe that they did this. (I REALLY wanted, and looking at the skill bars that won, DESERVED the henchman name/tonic)

Sh ele, thumpers, LC, MB, WoH Monks with infuse, etc... NOT A SINGLE, with the exception of 1, ORIGINAL BAR...

Gonzo_Neo · Oct 02, 2009, 11:06 AM // 11:06

I submit 3 paragons build thinking be origina and no copy PVX, but sadly PVX wins vs Players, original FTW, furthemor a lot skills cant be used for Henchies because his IA, good job.

Well 2 weeks work wasted for this and most of henchies are useless right now, after "pvp love" deleting 2 pvp modes and nothing new pve , delay skill updates, change to 2 months updates, typo in grog event and lies us, and now this, another EPIC FAIL to Live Team in less of 2 months.

Will we have new content in hallowen like new weapons skins . new minipets or new EL etc.... or at the end will we have the same old content or will be a new 2 minute mission and will be the next fail update?

Place your bets gentlemens

Emunator · Oct 02, 2009, 11:06 AM // 11:06

About all the QQ, i thought that they said they would improve the AI of henchman so they would use the winning bars as they are supposed too.

Bug John · Oct 02, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

heroes can't use the bars they gave them, maybe the hexers could do, but they have either poor energy management, or way too much

nobody will use them, they could just have make a random prize giveaway (when I see the bars that at least 1000 persons submitted, I guess that's already what they did)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

About all the QQ, i thought that they said they would improve the AI of henchman so they would use the winning bars as they are supposed too.

the day I see a warrior hero using frenzy (or primal rage) and bull's strike properly, I'll send a bottle of champagne to Anet's office

sure random humility signet, aura of stability, shock, death charge, death pact signet, gale... (and other key skills that the AI will NEVER have a clue how to use correctly) are fun to watch, but only in an opponent team

they shouldn't have forgotten heroes are not human players, even if the people who submitted those builds may be considered as stupid as koss with frenzy in his bar

what about bars heroes can play properly ?

smite monks, necro rits, tease mesmers, tainted flesh, hexers...

but I guess Anet wanted them useless, and it was their plan from the beginning to get rid of the AI in pvp

Elephantaliste · Oct 02, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

you should about giving a link or a quote then.

Gz to winners.
When will winners get their prizes, and when will GvG/HA changes happen ?

Xenomortis · Oct 02, 2009, 11:15 AM // 11:15

I am... almost surprised.

Seriously, too many of these are nearly straight up PvXwiki copy+paste. A lot contain skills we know the AI cannot use well or will not use at all. Some contain skills that will just hasten their death.

ANet, either admit you just don't want the AI to appear in PvP and that this entire contest was a distraction to make us believe otherwise and was a waste of resources, or fix the AI and/or the skill bars.

upier · Oct 02, 2009, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Man, I am glad I don't do PvP!

JR · Oct 02, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

Congrats to the winners. I'm glad I didn't bother entering this contest.

Indeed.

Want to know what really kills me about all this? Hold on to your hats, it's hillarious:

The updated PvE hench bars have been designed by Robert Gee, that prodigous youth on the live team, and optimized with feedback from 'top PvP players'.

I'll let that soak in for a minute, while you go over the bars that have been served up to PvP players as a result of this contest.

DoomFrost · Oct 02, 2009, 11:48 AM // 11:48

I constructed my bar based on the fact on what skills the AI could use properly. So much for that. Congrats to all the winners though.

zwei2stein · Oct 02, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The updated PvE hench bars have been designed by Robert Gee, that prodigous youth on the live team, and optimized with feedback from 'top PvP players'.

wait ... WHAT!?!?!?! Which updated PvE hench bars?

makosi · Oct 02, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

PvX and observer mode stuff.

I thought the contest would reward uniquity and innovation instead of copy&paste, popular meta builds.

I bet multiple versions of the same winning builds were posted, so how were the final winners decided?

Emunator · Oct 02, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Ok for the people who asked, quote is from : http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...naobra/Journal

Quote:

AI: It's possible that the Henchman AI will be updated to utitlize winning builds effectively, but it all depends on whether the design team feels this is appropriate. When submitting your bars for the contest, you shouldn't necessarily feel limited by the current AI.

So please no more QQ.

Lex · Oct 02, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

So please no more QQ.

If they update AI - ok then. But what about originality? They did want original builds. They did not want gimmicks.

From what point of view were these winning builds original???

Xenomortis · Oct 02, 2009, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

So please no more QQ.

Except I doubt they will. Even then, AI updates can and will only go so far.
Working the AI to act intelligently with skills such as Frenzy, PR, Infuse or Prots in general is quite a stretch.

It would have been much more resource efficient to only pick bars that worked well on heroes as they currently stand.
Though updating heroes to use stuff like Coward should be easy enough, especially as NPCs already use it.

And saying "Please don't submit gimmicks" and then accepting a bunny thumper is bullshit.

Symeon · Oct 02, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

About all the QQ, i thought that they said they would improve the AI of henchman so they would use the winning bars as they are supposed too.

If this isn't beyond the resources of the Live Team, it would certainly take weeks more work - and for what gain? AI would be too good again and we'd be back to the original problem.

I'm not annoyed that the bars aren't AI-friendly - AI shouldn't be in PvP in the first place, except to replace disconnected players. If the bars and AI stay as is, very few of the henchmen will be used, which is a good thing.

I am annoyed about two things. Firstly, how much unnecessary effort the Live Team have put into this. If they hadn't had the contest and simply copied PvX bars, unless they included Tease/AoD mesmers or Tainted necro, I wouldn't have complained, because of the minimal effort required. But since they had a contest, sifted through thousands of bars, and ended up picking ones they could've taken skill for skill from PvX, as well as several bad ones - valuable developer time has been wasted. Secondly, the contest rules stated that builds should be original, not taken from another source. Only a handful of the winning bars comply with this. So not only was the contest not needed, but it turned out to be a complete joke.

The man-hours spent on all this could have produced a decent balance update, or even implemented Sealed Deck. I think ANet lost their sense of priority a long time ago, but it just hurts to see such an utter waste of time.