Curse

Sarevok Thordin · Sep 23, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Yes it is. It has always been the best option and it always will be the best option. The option will never go away.

Here is the problem:

That attitude. That is the problem. You aren't up for starting at the bottom? Well I guess you didn't want to play GvG then did you? If you actually wanted to GvG, then you would welcome starting at the bottom and working your way up.

Hey, I'm just saying the mindset of people looking to get in but simply cannot be buggered dealing with all the smurfs and vast changes to style of gameplay.

Maybe it's not the fault of anyone who plays, and just the style isn't attractive enough (see: rewards) for those looking to get into it. Personally I've love to GvG more but the only thing I'd want from it is the champion monument, which is too far a stretch when I could be getting other things for the HoM, rather than fighting through smurfs to get it.

It's a rather complex problem as to why GvG is simply not as popular as it used to be, and the solution is going to be very hard to get to.

Still Number One · Sep 23, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Hey, I'm just saying the mindset of people looking to get in but simply cannot be buggered dealing with all the smurfs and vast changes to style of gameplay.

Maybe it's not the fault of anyone who plays, and just the style isn't attractive enough (see: rewards) for those looking to get into it. Personally I've love to GvG more but the only thing I'd want from it is the champion monument, which is too far a stretch when I could be getting other things for the HoM, rather than fighting through smurfs to get it.

It's a rather complex problem as to why GvG is simply not as popular as it used to be, and the solution is going to be very hard to get to.

I know you were talking about the mindset of people and I commented on it. I'm well aware of it and as I said, I see it outside of Guild Wars too. It is a shame but there really isn't anything we can do. It is the way perceptions have changed in the world from one generation to the next. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, people are generally more spoiled today than they were even 10-20 years ago.

My first post that quoted you was really all about the false idea of elitism, and my second was on the claim you made about it not being possible to form a guild of 8 new players and begin to GvG. You can do that still and it is still the most likely way to get into GvG. I won't deny it is a lot harder nowadays, but unfortunately it is still the best way to go about playing GvG.

And I believe the lack of rewards is the main cause for the lack of GvGers. Even people who loved GvG left when there were no live tournies and no real life prizes being given away. Most PvErs will look at PvP and if they have any interest at all it is mainly in RA or HA because of the titles being obtainable right away. HA even has the added bonus of emotes and an end chest. So it is only obvious that most would be unable to see the appeal in GvG over other formats.

As far as a solution goes, I've stated plenty of times that I don't feel there is one, not for GW1 GvG anyway. You could up the rewards and see a slight increase in people wanting to get into GvG, but it will end up being like HA where they will want to be invited into the groups who have the best chance of winning and don't want to spend the time losing. They would much rather just go vanquish an area where they know they will succeed and get a reward rather than failing multiple times over.

QueenofDeath · Sep 23, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Everywhere I go I see people looking for free handouts, looking for favors and thinking everyone owes them something

Yes, my son was a lot like that thought everything was owed to him by me because I brought him into this mess. lol So, I gave him what I owed him, a kick in the azz right into the army. Now he's finding out that other people don't really care what he thinks or what he wants or how he feels. Sometimes it just takes a kick of real life to find out how good you really have it in those places where you are griping all the time about what you are owed. I think too many parents are spoiling their kids too and giving them too dam much nowadays instead of making them get out there and work for what they want and get. That's why you have so many whinners here. I got .50 cents a week for my allowance and hear about kids today getting $20 a week and don't have to do a dam thing for it. Get your lazy azz up off the couch and do something for your old man or mom some of you ingrateful lil oaths.

moriz · Sep 23, 2009, 11:35 PM // 23:35

one of the biggest problem with GW gvg (and pvp in general) is the lack of continuity between the different arenas. what i mean is, there isn't such thing as a "casual" gvg arena. there isn't anywhere where a player can learn the fundamentals of gvg on his own. let's face it, playing a thousand matches in RA will teach NOTHING about gvg. to learn how to play gvg you have to play gvg, and get thrown to the lions in the process.

my favourite example of a game that has this done properly is DotA (or heroes of newerth, as it's turning into). the casuals, newbies, and professions all play the same format. the casual games might not be as organized, and skill levels are not as high, but the same basic format still applies throughout all tiers. it means a much easier transition going up the ladder.

Still Number One · Sep 24, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

my favourite example of a game that has this done properly is DotA (or heroes of newerth, as it's turning into). the casuals, newbies, and professions all play the same format. the casual games might not be as organized, and skill levels are not as high, but the same basic format still applies throughout all tiers. it means a much easier transition going up the ladder.

I haven't ever played DotA but I always hear great things about it. Could you maybe explain in greater detail how DotA adds a casual format and maybe theorize how Guild Wars can incorporate something similar? Because I agree that that would help a great deal.

moriz · Sep 24, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

there isn't a strictly casual format per se. everybody use the exact same map with the exact same heroes and exact same mechanics. however, it's also structured in a way that you can just jump into a game with a bunch of randoms and play. this is unlike GW gvg, where no amount of practice is lower end arenas can EVER prepare you to play gvg.

honestly though, what GW needs is a random GvG format of some kind. it also needs much better matchmaking systems to ensure nobody gets 8 monks on each side or other retarded teams. at the end of the day, GW might not be suitable for this kind of stuff. its emphasis on team play is too heavy; there's no way you can have 8 independent players be effective on a gvg map. even BYOB is not entirely random.

Chocobo1 · Sep 24, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I haven't ever played DotA but I always hear great things about it. Could you maybe explain in greater detail how DotA adds a casual format and maybe theorize how Guild Wars can incorporate something similar? Because I agree that that would help a great deal.

I've played a lot of War3 and a lot of Dota, and it's safe to say the game still has the same problems. At casual play, people leave the game if they think there team isn't going to win or if they die. There is a lot of yelling and screaming and just generally people being bad at the game. The only reason people think Dota is such a great game is because it is so simple. You control one unit with three skills and have a limited amount of items to choose from. You generally pick the same items each time.

Also, competitive Dota is VASTLY different from casual Dota. There is no way you can just "jump" into competitive Dota. You need a team of friends (four friends + you), organize a team to vs by yourself and even then, the game is decided by the hero choices. One person picks Hero A, Other team Picks Hero B to counter Hero A, next person picks Hero C to counter hero B and so on.

moriz · Sep 24, 2009, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I've played a lot of War3 and a lot of Dota, and it's safe to say the game still has the same problems. At casual play, people leave the game if they think there team isn't going to win or if they die. There is a lot of yelling and screaming and just generally people being bad at the game. The only reason people think Dota is such a great game is because it is so simple. You control one unit with three skills and have a limited amount of items to choose from. You generally pick the same items each time.

Also, competitive Dota is VASTLY different from casual Dota. There is no way you can just "jump" into competitive Dota. You need a team of friends (four friends + you), organize a team to vs by yourself and even then, the game is decided by the hero choices. One person picks Hero A, Other team Picks Hero B to counter Hero A, next person picks Hero C to counter hero B and so on.

the point is, DotA has just one arena, while GW has a bunch of arenas that really has nothing to do with each other. you can practice for competitive play in DotA by playing casual matches. you can't do this in GvG.

Chocobo1 · Sep 24, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the point is, DotA has just one arena, while GW has a bunch of arenas that really has nothing to do with each other. you can practice for competitive play in DotA by playing casual matches. you can't do this in GvG.

I dunno, the skill level in Competitive and Casual play is so different. It's like a 8v8 Random Arena teaching you how to play GvG, I'm not sure how helpful it would be.

moriz · Sep 24, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I dunno, the skill level in Competitive and Casual play is so different. It's like a 8v8 Random Arena teaching you how to play GvG, I'm not sure how helpful it would be.

that's the thing though; only skill differentiates in DotA. not to mention, an 8v8 RA on GvG maps objectives is bound to be more helpful than 4v4 RA on totally different maps with no objectives other than "kill the other team".

Shadowspawn X · Sep 24, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

one of the biggest problem with GW gvg (and pvp in general) is the lack of continuity between the different arenas. what i mean is, there isn't such thing as a "casual" gvg arena. there isn't anywhere where a player can learn the fundamentals of gvg on his own.

Was not Fort Aspinwood the GvG transitional stage?

Shasgaliel · Sep 24, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

There are 1000's of players who don't GVG and there are many reasons why. Elitist GVGers is just one of the reasons.

As a reply to your post I will use your own words from the other thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Where do these magicians find this miraculous ability to read 1000's of minds and learn how people like to play or why they play??? lol Why don't YOU just state YOUR opinions with "YOU" don't play for fun and YOU are just there to finish up your EotN title and YOU don't care how it's done? Stop speaking for 1000's which you have no clue how they think and why they play. It just makes you look dumb and childish.

@OP We in the guild do not do gvg from simple logistics reasons. It takes too much time to form a team and the time the match takes is quite short. In this case TA is already more interesting choice since preparation times are significantly lower.

Canon · Sep 24, 2009, 09:26 PM // 21:26

just wanted to say thanks again for everybody who responded to my post. I really do appreciate all the feedback I've gotten and it's given me a lot to think about. If you have any other questions or something you would like to add, feel free to pm me in game. IGN Canon Rock

Thanks!

Gboy Mesmero · Sep 25, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

I think too many people take it way to seriously
I've been in guilds where we tried to get the "perfect" build for over an hour, only to find out that the leader didn't want to risk losing rating, and being unable to find another guild in our alliance to challenge unrated.
I would just prefer to play casually, but it seems that everyone just wants to win. (well, i could see why, but it shouldn't dominate all the other reasons)

Also, finding eight people(or even 4) is also a problem, as well as the general lack of interest because almost everyone has the perception that we will lose.
I tired convincing people that lower rating is better because then we can work our way bottom up, but maybe only one person listened to me.

Finding in good guild with the same interests is also difficult.

QueenofDeath · Sep 26, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

at the end of the day, good players will want to play with other good players. if you don't have what it takes, they are under no obligation to include you. that's not elitism. that's simple fact of life.

I'm not arguing good players being good, I'm also not stating all of these good players are elitists. When I say elitists I'm talking about these players who go around bragging they are the best and act as though nothing else matters but their opinions, thoughts and feelings about GVG and anyone else who participates or tries to participate in GVG opinions, feelings and thoughts just don't matter, elitists have no class and they hide behind a monitor acting like they are somebody when it's just a game thus they are really nobody. Typical of those that make blanket statements like go find some of those 1000's of players like X and play with them. These are your elitists. Good players are just good players not braggarts or arrogant. Players like that are the TO's of football or R. Moss's. They are good, but, nobody really likes them or cares what they think. In the end they will be nobodys without many friends if any at all. Neither will probably make it to the HOF either.

)

Eragon Zarroc · Sep 26, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

pffft, the barriers of entry into the high end gvg pvp are too high to bother putting the time into trying to overcome. besides, im just bad at the game anymore; laziness

Wild Rituals · Sep 26, 2009, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by subarucar

I used to play top 400 GvG on 250-400, so its not that bad.

Using the fact that New Zealand has a badp ing doesnt mean you cant Gvg. I do perfectly fine.

The biggest problem with NZ is the shitty time zone compared to Americans and Euro's we are right in the middle. and the time zone is dead for gvg

Red Intensity · Sep 26, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Getting noticed in the GvG world is like tossing a bottled message in a sea of bottled messages; the chances of your message being selected is painfully slim, and it's no easier than pinging your name for a spot for a DoA run when the team is 7/8 and what's needed is a monk, though your character is a warrior, and everyone else is gunning for that spot, none of them being monks because there aren't any around, or any willing to help. And about starting at the dirt bottom to get anywhere: the years have passed when that was acceptable, when just about anyone with some knowledge of the game was able to play GvG and get along to some degree. Of course, the bottom has gotten deeper, and it's at the level of hell today, where it's gotten to the point that people who want to start can't because they're permanently stuck in the hell level, so they have literally no choice but to play on the lower tiers of PvP, which I mean by anything below TA, because even that has gotten a bit fancy and ridiculously selective (though it will be gone soon).

I hate when people say "Make friends, make connections" or "Find like minded and make a guild from there" and the sort, but making friends in this game is as easy as building a computer; people who haven't done it before will find the task daunting and attempting the task, even with direction, failure is clearly imminent. Also, you can't make connections you don't have.

But simply, GvG to me is just another activity, but this format has Schutzstaffel-like requirements and is the primary focus on the game. It's the people in it that make the format seem like a spawning pool of elitists and their ilk.

moriz · Sep 27, 2009, 04:33 AM // 04:33

i went into my first complete computer build armed with nothing but a screwdriver and common sense. the computer worked perfectly right off the bat. i went into my first gvg much the same way, armed with a build that i've practiced, keyboard+mouse and ventrilo. my team and i went 2 for 3 that night, the only lose came 10 minutes into VoD because one of our players never loaded. this was back in '06.

the excuse of "there are too many elitists" is just an excuse. there are a-holes in every corner of the game, and to paint an entire group of people as such is just insulting. more often than not, it's a PEBKAC issue.

when shit happens, first look to yourself before looking at your teammates. often, you'll find the problem right there.

Artisan Archer · Sep 27, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

I don't see the problem with getting into GvG. I think it took me about two weeks to find a GvG guild that I liked and after about two/three months of playing I'm their core ranger and we're playing top 500 and still gaining ranks every session.

The fact we lost like 100 rating in the first month actually didn't matter cause everyone was feeling we we're just finding the right build and generally getting better as a team. For me, to be in a team that constantely improves in a competitive format has been one of the most fun experiences in Guild Wars.

When I read this thread I wonder which game you're playing. It's most definetely not impossible to get into GvG and I haven't really encountered elitism as described here. Ofcourse, I didn't even try to play for experienced guilds when I just started, like people said, you have to start at the bottom. If you don't want to do that then YOU are the elitist, not the people who don't want to play with you.