Curse

InfernalSuffering · Sep 22, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Are there more people who want to play competitively, but lack the tools (knowledge, builds, etc) to do so, or people who want to play casually, but fail at the logistics (enough people, all on at same time, etc.)?

The Drunkard · Sep 22, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

As a pve'er trying to shift into pvp, it's quite fustrating to try and find a serious pvp guild that takes beginners. Everytime I go to the pvp districts, everyone always wants ranked people. I've gotten to glad4 and hb2, but there wasn't any "skill" into achieving those at all and it shows. I wish there was a larger playerbase in GvG so the beginners would have a place to start...right now it's pretty exclusive.

Still Number One · Sep 22, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

He was looking for a guild in the wrong place for one thing. You will never see a serious GvG guild recruiting in places like GToB, RA, TA, and the like. They recruit on forums like here at Guru and on Team Quitter. Serious guilds are selective in who they choose because they have to be if they want to actually be serious. Making a forum post allows to explain in detail what type of player you want for your guild and allows any potential recruits to fill out a detailed application on what they can bring to the table for your guild.

The only way to get around that is to know people who know what you are capable of and will add you based off prior knowledge of you. The whole elitism thing is really quite retarded, because elitism really doesn't exist. People just say it does because they were rejected from a guild for not being good enough or not being a right fit. That is not elitism, that is proper recruitment. Google isn't going to hire someone with no knowledge of computers to work in their IT department. Google isn't being elitist because of that, they are simply looking for their best options and that person wasn't cut out for the work.

In most situations where people bring up "Elitism" the guild or group rejecting someone isn't the problem. It is the player trying to get into a group or guild he doesn't have the qualifications for.

If you are looking to get into GvG with no prior experience, don't look to join a guild with established players. You have to play with people at the EXACT same level you are. You can guest better players and ask top players for advice all you want, but you aren't cut out to join their guild. People need to realize that and that right there is no the number one reason why there is such a small influx of players coming into GvG. A lot of players feel they deserve things they do not. They want to be accepted into an already established guild and expect people to teach them how to improve rather than learn on their own. Join or make a guild with 8-10 players who are committed to breaking into GvG. Set your playtimes, set your core, and talk to top players and ask them to guest for you. There is a thread on QQ updated every month of people willing to guest.

If you want to play GvG, then YOU have to do something about it. No one else should be expected to help you.

Snow Bunny · Sep 22, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Are there more people who want to play competitively, but lack the tools (knowledge, builds, etc) to do so, or people who want to play casually, but fail at the logistics (enough people, all on at same time, etc.)?

You have to think of it from a PvE'ers standpoint

- they want to play some organized PvP? That's fine. However, they have X hours (let's say 2, fair number) to play GvG. It will take about an hour to get everyone rounded up, equipment/skills in order, and it will take 5-10 min to find a match. They might end up against a r2000 guild, a r43 guild, or some shitty r300 bspikers. They will probably lose, possibly one of them might rage, then they spend another 20 min getting someone else, then 10 more min...

etc.

etc.

It's a logistics, not rewards or skill, issue.

fowlero · Sep 22, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I remember when i started out the largest problem we had (aside from logistics of getting 8 players online), was the plain ability for players to have the 64 skills we wanted.

Make pvp unlocks easier to attain, with the introduction of zquests i believe zcoins should be made usable for unlocks very cheaply.

This way pveers can do their thing if they fancy doing pve zquests and earn their way into more skill unlocks etc, without being forced to pvp it. Sounds counterproductive but they're not gonna learn a lot tossing around in RA, if anything i think it'd put them off as there's simply no incentive to gvg for pveers. Plus it's gonna take a lot to say to you're average pveer, dont spend 5kbalt on a zkey, spend it on some skills.

Other than that it's just a question of how much effort the players feel they can put in to get around the logistics nightmare.

Jensy · Sep 22, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

If you want to play GvG, then YOU have to do something about it. No one else should be expected to help you.

Yes, a million times yes. Being tenaciously determined to play will hopefully pay off for my guild in the end. If we rounded up all of the people here who have expressed interest and made them into GvG guilds, we'd get people playing instead of whining about how they're not playing.

People are willing to help, and guest. I'm learning this :P

Still Number One · Sep 22, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by pansy malfoy

Yes, a million times yes. Being tenaciously determined to play will hopefully pay off for my guild in the end. If we rounded up all of the people here who have expressed interest and made them into GvG guilds, we'd get people playing instead of whining about how they're not playing.

People are willing to help, and guest. I'm learning this :P

as long as your guild has 8 people dedicated to playing the game and improving, who get along with each other and actually enjoy playing, then there is no reason to believe it won't all work out for you and your guild.

I always find it funny that whenever PvP "Elitism" is brought up you get about 10 people popping in and saying yea so and so won't let me play cause of this. And they are usually different people every single time. I have no idea why these people don't pm eachother and say hey, I see you are in a similar situation as me, maybe we can form a guild together with other people in our situation and we can play.

I also don't see The Drunkard with a post in the Player looking for PvP Guild section of this forum. How can you say you are actively looking for a guild if you don't even have an application set up for everyone to see. How is anyone supposed to know you are looking for a guild and know what type of guild you belong in without that? There are a lot of resources available to you, so use them.

Sorry for sorta getting off-topic, but this whole PvPers are Elitists attitude is really getting on my nerves.

Master Fuhon · Sep 23, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Some of these may be repeats:

1) Outgrowing the stereotypical gaming environment and behaviors after college (no more cram gaming sessions, finding what used to be funny to not be).
2) Not compatible with the crowd that wants an ‘ideal’ skillset/personality, instead of the crowd that wants a compatible but different skillset/personality.
3) Playing on a wireless connection with lag spikes (up to 20-30 seconds at times).
4) Not making the continual gaming investment (mice, keyboards, rememorizing the scripted actions to take in combat sequences, relearning skill graphics and animations). These are the basics by which higher level play is learned on top of.
5) 8v8 PvP is something you have to follow throughout, by being active in GvG, Team Arena, or at least Heroes Ascent and Observer; reforming the people networks that get lost from absences. There’s a lot of ground lost by quitting for a year, and then regularly quitting for months/weeks when something comes up. There is no training ground for shedding rust, just PvE and competition that has continually progressed.
6) Learned too much about the strategy aspect that playing the game wasn't fun. For some reason I have fun doing analysis and not going through the motions.

Just to say something extra, do not underestimate how much is gained from experience within a single meta, how much is not gained by missing out on a single meta.

fenix · Sep 23, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Here's a quick comment for PvErs;

You CANNOT base your failings on trying to get into PvP as being because of 'elitism'.

Blaming it on 'elitism' is a cop out, and poor excuse for your own inability to play. There are plenty of avenues to get into PvP, but just because you're a PvE superstar doesn't mean you should be handed a top guild spot on a silver platter.

In fact, I find the entire 'elitism' thing to be a ridiculous joke. If you want elitism, try to get into ANY speed clear groups.

Iotan · Sep 23, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

I was away from GvG for about 2 years before getting back into it in the last month. The main reason for me was I had a lot of success and a lot of fun with my original guild and knew that wouldn't come with a different guild. Although I know this absolutely isn't the case for the pve type.

The pve people I've observed tend to have a few common things against GvG.
1. "It's not fun". Many of us know that's not true, but a lot of PvErs played 1 GvG, probably on bad builds with bad armor/equipment and got facestomped and never tried again.
2. Not competitive people. Would rather do some carefree raptor farming (no risk, small reward) than anything competitive (some risk, larger reward). Not a whole lot can be done to get people like this to GvG.
3. Recognition. Aside from ladder and capes (which few will ever get) there's nothing to show off to others. I assume this is why people who faction farm, UWSC, etc. don't GvG.
4. Playing times. This is true for all GvGers, but there are pretty simple ways around it. Guests and alliance are useful, and are out there for people who look.

Sarevok Thordin · Sep 23, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

See, all the whole "get 8 people your own level and go" argument may have worked before but in this day and age it's not working anymore. The game is no longer in the state where that is an option.

People are simply not up for that anymore, I've dabbled in GvG/HA and all those other formats btw. A group of people who gather up for a GvG after hours of looking for people will go in, get curbstomped a few times and just never do it again, and they won't even KNOW where they went wrong.

It's like HA, we are past the point where simple trial and error will help, there's an established formation of play and people are going to need to either mentor or post some sort of good guide to GvG that is easy to follow otherwise they'll lose interest and bugger off back to whatever they normally do. Maybe once the GvG community (shock) grows through this getting others into it will be easier. Another thing that can help people into GvG is better rewards, the more people that get into GvG, the easier it'll be to get a high rating (I.e not running into smurfs around the 1200 mark, if they don't show up before then) as someone said, no recognition before that point.

You can bleat "Learn from your own mistakes" all you want, but some people just won't figure out what mistakes they are making on their own.

fowlero · Sep 23, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

It's like HA, we are past the point where simple trial and error will help, there's an established formation of play and people are going to need to either mentor or post some sort of good guide to GvG that is easy to follow otherwise they'll lose interest and bugger off back to whatever they normally do.

If you actually look for these guides you'll find they already exist, although this one is a bit outdated it still very much applies largely.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10172205

Then there's the moderated section on QQ too which has some good guides.

oxylus · Sep 23, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canon

With this in mind, I have to then ask what is holding members of the Guild Wars community back from getting into the GvG scene.

OK so looking at it from a distance, this is what I think :

To put it simply the lack of new GvG players is like what happens to the major leagues when the minor/college leagues aren't feeding players into the elite game.

As GW gets older and the general player base reduces, there are less and less entry-level and mid-level GvG players and guilds. The GvG player base is mostly veteran players who have been around for a while. So without the lower "leagues" for new players to rise up through it becomes very difficult to play in ATs and MATs.

(And no, HA is not really a feeder for GvG any more - that was back in 2005/6)

Also I think the lack of players in absolute numbers means that there are less players with the aptitude and dedication needed for high level play.

Now looking at it from my PoV - I left the game for a couple of years and only started logging into GW again early this year. I've been playing enough TA/HA to get UAX a long time ago. However between my guildies and friends I haven't been able to find a group of 8 who have time to regularly GvG - this includes myself. I don't think I have the time to commit to GvG properly.

I would be interested to know what most current GvG players are (or more correctly what they did when they were most active in GvG). I bet a good percentage of them are/were highscool or college. There aren't many other demographics with the time available to play.

lord of all tyria · Sep 23, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Because it isn't; it's not fun, and no one in their right mind would think it is.

GvG is played as a competition, or a sport, not as something fun like a game.

I play sport because I find competition fun. Same goes for GvG.

madriel222 · Sep 23, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iotan

The pve people I've observed tend to have a few common things against GvG.
1. "It's not fun". Many of us know that's not true, but a lot of PvErs played 1 GvG, probably on bad builds with bad armor/equipment and got facestomped and never tried again.
*snipped*
4. Playing times. This is true for all GvGers, but there are pretty simple ways around it. Guests and alliance are useful, and are out there for people who look.

Who are you to say what's fun for PvE'ers? You guys enjoy GvG and that's great, but don't assume that because you're having a good time that it's fun for everyone. Most PvE type players aren't playing PvE because they're afraid of GvG competition (or because of any PvP related reason for that matter), they do it because they enjoy that facet of the game. You love your part, and we'll love ours.

"Guests and alliances" turns group related goals into individual ones, and I think that's what keeps a chunk of PvE'ers from trying PvP. We don't want to play with your friends. We don't want to seek out help and advice from people we don't know. And, most importantly, we dont' want to break away from our circles of friends in order to join competitive PvP. I'm sure I'm not alone, being in the same guild as my friends for the last 3-4 years. Why would I want to leave my certainty for a complete unknown? This is fine for the new or bored PvE'er, who either doesn't have the community ties or wants to try something new, but the casual PvE'er would rather hang out with friends than move up the ladder.

QueenofDeath · Sep 23, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

You CANNOT base your failings on trying to get into PvP as being because of 'elitism'.

The above is the example of elitism trying to tell others how they should think and feel about GVG. Typical elitist activity here. Everyone has the right to determine what and how they think about the game, GVG or whatever and no one such as yourself has the right to tell them how they should think or feel about it. There are 1000's of players who don't GVG and there are many reasons why. Elitist GVGers is just one of the reasons.

Still Number One · Sep 23, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

See, all the whole "get 8 people your own level and go" argument may have worked before but in this day and age it's not working anymore. The game is no longer in the state where that is an option.

Yes it is. It has always been the best option and it always will be the best option. The option will never go away.

Here is the problem:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

People are simply not up for that anymore

That attitude. That is the problem. You aren't up for starting at the bottom? Well I guess you didn't want to play GvG then did you? If you actually wanted to GvG, then you would welcome starting at the bottom and working your way up.

The problem is no one seems to want to work for anything anymore. Everyone wants things to be handed to them, and I'm not just talking about Guild Wars, I'm talking about life in general. Everywhere I go I see people looking for free handouts, looking for favors and thinking everyone owes them something when in reality no one owes you jack. There are a lot of students at the University I go to who think they deserve a passing grade just because they are paying for class. They don't view it as paying for the oppurtunity to learn and earn a degree. They look at it as they are paying for the degree.

And that is the attitude I have seen from a lot (I'd even go as far to say the majority) of players looking to get into GvG. They feel that because they have the game, they are entitled to do whatever they want in it. They think that they should be entitled to join a rank 500 guild even though they have no prior experience at all. The reality of it is, you aren't entitled to it. You aren't entitled to a damn thing. It isn't the job of the established GvGers to come find you and welcome you into the community with open arms, just as it isn't the job of Google or Aflac or Disney to come find business majors and recruit them to their workforce. It is your job to find those companies and tell them how you are going to make them better.

And 9 times out of 10 you aren't going to be able to. So you set your goals, and you start small. You take what you have, and you work to improve yourself. You go out of your way to find information to help improve yourself (there are timeless guides on QQ forums and rawr forums to help people learn). You go out of your way to find those who are the top dogs in your field and you try to talk to them. You ask them about what they do and why they are so successful at it, and I guarantee you if that person has a moment they will happily indulge you.

If you want to use the term "Elitist", then you better start pointing the finger at yourself. It is your duty to get noticed and become as good as you want to be. It isn't anyone's job to give you a free pass there.

So if anyone wants to get into GvG, you need to suck it up, and start low.

moriz · Sep 23, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

The above is the example of elitism trying to tell others how they should think and feel about GVG. Typical elitist activity here. Everyone has the right to determine what and how they think about the game, GVG or whatever and no one such as yourself has the right to tell them how they should think or feel about it. There are 1000's of players who don't GVG and there are many reasons why. Elitist GVGers is just one of the reasons.

if no one has the right to tell others what they feel about the game, then why are you telling us how you feel about the game? wouldn't that be a violation of your own principles?

at the end of the day, you either got what it takes, or you don't. nobody is obligated to include you just because you want to; you have to be able to perform. if you can't perform, either quit or come back when you've learned how. it's quite simple. there's no "elitism" involved here.

Billiard · Sep 23, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

GvGing is hard to do. Back in the day (pre-Factions), there were tons of people just starting to GvG. As a result, even though you might get rolled by War Machine and Nuclear Launch Detected, you'd also get 8-10 guilds just like yourselves and it would be fairly even. Strategies and builds were pretty simple, so anyone could just jump in and learn on the fly.

Now though, to start from scratch is very, very difficult. I have worked with probably over 1000 new PvP players between my time leading Xen of Onslaught and Team Love. One of the hardest things to convey to new players is that even if you work your ass off for 2 or 3 weeks straight, that might give you 100 hours of GvG experience, while you are going against players with thousands of hours of GvG experience. There are no shortcuts that allow you to pick things up in a night or a week - you have to put in the time if you want to get better. And because of the nature of GvG, it is very hard for a team to carry someone as they are trying to sort things out - competing teams will exploit any weak links.

Even though new GvG players might know skills and understand game mechanics, they are extremely slow in evaluating situations and making decisions - and then more often then not they make the wrong decision. What results then is that newer players have a 30-60 second lag between when they should be doing something, and when they actually do it, as they either have to figure it out or someone else has to explain to them what to do. With more experience this lag time decreases, to the point where top players can near instantaneously do the right thing at the right time to the right person.

So what often results is that new GvGers don't realize how slow they are reacting, and why the more experienced GvGers are loudly urging them to do specific things in a very expeditious manner. Trying to accelerate the learning curve of the new GvGers in match and with post-match discussions can often get very critical, and I am sure many people perceive the behavior of the experienced folks as "elitist."

In any event, GvGing is fairly complex and is not something easily explained and learned. It also requires more intrinsic motivation because there are really few external rewards associated with it. I have spent a lot of time and effort trying to help build up the GvG community over the past several years, and have yet to come up with any good solution to the problem.

keli · Sep 23, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

and this complexity is what i like in it so much billiard, but i can understand that this may be a drawback for new players