Curse

Danax · Aug 09, 2009, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Give some creatures Mind Shock (ele elite) and a monster elite as the Stormcloud Incubus have in EOTN dungeons.

LOL. that should fix all UWSC clears.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mind_Shock

Its a spell??

vamp08 · Aug 09, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadgerzFTW

...assassins in PvE are completely useless without SF.

Incorrect. Flashing Blades. We do have a use, most sins are too ignorant to see past Shadow Form.

bitchbar player · Aug 09, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

just give some monsters leech signet but i rather see sf die a painfull dead

Steps_Descending · Aug 09, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

btw, people do sc for money, they're totally different from people willing to form a non-sc group, trying to make them leave won't change anything

That got me thinking... What is exactly the point of SCs? Last time I read the updates there was no title that required farming UW, the latest craze was VSs, then came the Zaishen Quest bags (equipment bags was that the name?) So... why are we still playing so seriously?

[DE] · Aug 09, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Incorrect. Flashing Blades. We do have a use, most sins are too ignorant to see past Shadow Form.

Uhm- You're right that most sins can't see past Shadow Form. However, Flashing Blades isn't the elite you'd want to be using in PvE.

Quote:

That got me thinking... What is exactly the point of SCs? Last time I read the updates there was no title that required farming UW, the latest craze was VSs, then came the Zaishen Quest bags (equipment bags was that the name?) So... why are we still playing so seriously?

Drops and e-peen. Having the fastest time in a zone sends all your blood to your pants, and the faster you can clear a zone the faster you can get the drops from the end-chest, the more time you have to clear the zone again, the more chances you have to get a rarer drop.

Targren · Aug 09, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Uhm- You're right that most sins can't see past Shadow Form. However, Flashing Blades isn't the elite you'd want to be using in PvE.

gogogo Moebius Strike

Actually, with the recent lead-attack recharge buffs, maybe it's time to look into some chains that start over, though Wild Blow should be an elite in the hands of assassins.

leetLoLa · Aug 09, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

nah if sf die many ppl will ragequit GW CAUSE their profit is comin from scs =S

HawkofStorms · Aug 09, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by leetLoLa

nah if sf die many ppl will ragequit GW CAUSE their profit is comin from scs =S

And then they will get over it and slowly start to come back... like they did with Ursan.

Martin Alvito · Aug 09, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by leetLoLa

nah if sf die many ppl will ragequit GW CAUSE their profit is comin from scs =S

The only people who win are the people with huge amounts of time on their hands. If everyone's farming the same exact thing at the same exact rate, everyone that farms less than the mean number of hours per week is getting poorer. Your pinky blobs are worth less and less every week (in terms of what you can buy with them), and so are the drops from the end chest.

Of course, it's the people who don't care to farm that REALLY get owned.

AtomicMew · Aug 09, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Re: 2 man UW
And that's quite a massive and quickly acquired reward for only two people.

Actually, it's NOT. If you bothered to read, you would have seen this point made time and time ago. Even if these people are capable of doing 2 man UW consistently (which is dubious), the rewards are only comparable to an 8 man UWSC, which is itself, only comparable to feather farm.

Again, there's no economic reason to nerf SF without nerfing ALL the other non-SF farms in existence.

AtomicMew · Aug 09, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The only people who win are the people with huge amounts of time on their hands. If everyone's farming the same exact thing at the same exact rate, everyone that farms less than the mean number of hours per week is getting poorer. Your pinky blobs are worth less and less every week (in terms of what you can buy with them), and so are the drops from the end chest.

Of course, it's the people who don't care to farm that REALLY get owned.

Right, if you don't farm, then you have less cash than farmers. I fail to see any injustice in that logic.

Martin Alvito · Aug 09, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Actually, it's NOT. If you bothered to read, you would have seen this point made time and time ago. Even if these people are capable of doing 2 man UW consistently (which is dubious), the rewards are only comparable to an 8 man UWSC, which is itself, only comparable to feather farm.

What sort of warped mathematical universe are you people living in? A skilled team that can complete UW four times an hour is generating a lot more than the 20-25k an hour from feather farming. If that group rotates players around the different slots to even out the distribution, two ectos per player per run is a reasonable estimate of the long-term average. That's eight ectos an hour before you figure in the expected value of ultra-rare chest goodies.

20-25k is borderline excessive for a long-term farm, but it's not totally out of whack with past sustained farms. It's when stuff starts hitting 40k+ an hour that it either gets farmed to death (eg: green farms) or it gets nerfed. For people that don't suck, UWSC meets the latter criteria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Right, if you don't farm, then you have less cash than farmers. I fail to see any injustice in that logic.

Because you're a PvE-er, and you forget that this other parallel community (PvP) exists in your universe. There's also that problem where ANet prefers that players actually play the game, but I think that players have pretty conclusively proven that's just never going to happen.

The Halls chest and the monthly are solid farms for the PvP crowd, but they're fairly exclusive. The rest of the PvP community catches it in the shorts when stuff like this goes on.

AtomicMew · Aug 10, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

What sort of warped mathematical universe are you people living in? A skilled team that can complete UW four times an hour is generating a lot more than the 20-25k an hour from feather farming. If that group rotates players around the different slots to even out the distribution, two ectos per player per run is a reasonable estimate of the long-term average. That's eight ectos an hour before you figure in the expected value of ultra-rare chest goodies.

20-25k is borderline excessive for a long-term farm, but it's not totally out of whack with past sustained farms. It's when stuff starts hitting 40k+ an hour that it either gets farmed to death (eg: green farms) or it gets nerfed. For people that don't suck, UWSC meets the latter criteria.

Right because 90% of players meet the criteria and can do UWSC 4 times in an hour. Oh wait...

4 UWSCs in one hour is severely pushing the limits. There are likely only a handful of guilds that are capable of this consistently. When you factor in organization time, rotation times, break times, everyone is on a different schedule, and yes, fails (EVERYONE fails sometimes, and there are 8 people), it probably comes out to around 20-30 minutes per UWSC. Given all these factors, it is not enough to be able find 8 different people who are capable of doing their areas consistently in 15 minutes, you need severely tweaked builds capable of doing it in <10 minutes with no room for error.

Quote:

Because you're a PvE-er, and you forget that this other parallel community (PvP) exists in your universe. There's also that problem where ANet prefers that players actually play the game, but I think that players have pretty conclusively proven that's just never going to happen.

The Halls chest and the monthly are solid farms for the PvP crowd, but they're fairly exclusive. The rest of the PvP community catches it in the shorts when stuff like this goes on.

I'm sorry, what does PvE have to do with Pvp? Or are you saying now you need ectos to do Pvp?

Also, even accepting the ridiculous premise that Pvpers should get PvE rewards, ZQ-farm says hi.

Martin Alvito · Aug 10, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Right because 90% of players meet the criteria and can do UWSC 4 times in an hour. Oh wait...

And a year ago you all couldn't do UW HM in less than 1:15, and the community went absolutely ape when we posted 30 minute screenies (crying Photoshop in disbelief). The community may not be down to 15 minute runs yet, but if the good players can do it now then eventually the slower learners will catch up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I'm sorry, what does PvE have to do with Pvp? Or are you saying now you need ectos to do Pvp?

lolwut? u need ectos 2 do pve?

Everybody likes nice stuff, and the UWSC crowd isn't down there to scare up cash to outfit Koss with a Minor Swordsmanship rune, ya know? UWSC farmers are after luxuries, not necessities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

ZQ-farm says hi.

What matters is relative rates of speed. That's a LOT slower, except maybe on the /resign wars day. Unless you're holding Halls for hours or making the later single elimination rounds of the mATs, every hour spent PvPing puts you well behind the productivity of the farmer. Not good when the idea was for PvP to be the content players would ultimately graduate to.

AtomicMew · Aug 10, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

And a year ago you all couldn't do UW HM in less than 1:15, and the community went absolutely ape when we posted 30 minute screenies (crying Photoshop in disbelief). The community may not be down to 15 minute runs yet, but if the good players can do it now then eventually the slower learners will catch up.

That's a false analogy. The builds for <10 min UWSC have already been posted. The majority of players will NEVER be able to do <10 minute UWSCs for every area.

Quote:

lolwut? u need ectos 2 do pve?

Uh.... yeah you do. Do I need to wiki how many ectos/shards it takes to make an armor set? Do I need to calculate the millions of gold required to max titles and fill halls?

Quote:

Everybody likes nice stuff, and the UWSC crowd isn't down there to scare up cash to outfit Koss with a Minor Swordsmanship rune, ya know? UWSC farmers are after luxuries, not necessities.

This is a game, everything is a luxury. There is nothing essential in the game, not max armor, not max weapons, because Guild Wars itself isn't essential.

Quote:

What matters is relative rates of speed. That's a LOT slower, except maybe on the /resign wars day. Unless you're holding Halls for hours or making the later single elimination rounds of the mATs, every hour spent PvPing puts you well behind the productivity of the farmer. Not good when the idea was for PvP to be the content players would ultimately graduate to.

...I farm ~7k every 15-20 minutes on HB days. No one does /resign anymore. Considering the insane amount of faction you get from HA, I doubt it's any slower, if at all.

Unreal Havoc · Aug 10, 2009, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Uh.... yeah you do. Do I need to wiki how many ectos/shards it takes to make an armor set? Do I need to calculate the millions of gold required to max titles and fill halls?

The key word was "need"

Quote:

lolwut? u need ectos 2 do pve?

You don't "need" ecto to do PvE.

Hermos · Aug 10, 2009, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

You don't "need" ecto to do PvE.

Right then, you try doing GWAMM without a farm like UWSC and without playing 10+ hours a day in a reasonable amount of time.

If you want to max titles fast, you need to make money fast. If you're not in a good guild which does 8 man farm teams regularly or if you can't run dungeons, your options are severely limited. Either sit outside Kamadan in HM farming those 6g Iboga Petals to make the 2 million required to max Party Animal for your last title, or do some UWSCing.

If you have a better alternative, please do share, because I'd love to be able to max my money sink titles without the pain and torture that is PuGing UWSC.

The truth is, the UWSC gave casual players a reasonable alternative to playing excessively and powertrading to reach their millions. Now all the high end PvE players who made their millions already through rigorous, trivial farms or through player services now hate the fact that other players can achieve what they did in half the time with the same effort involved.

Unreal Havoc · Aug 10, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermos

Right then, you try doing GWAMM without a farm like UWSC and without playing 10+ hours a day in a reasonable amount of time.

This is a weak counter argument because you don't "need" to do GWAMM. It's entirely optional.

Many people got GWAMM before UWSC was ever introduced.

Hermos · Aug 10, 2009, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

This is a weak counter argument because you don't "need" to do GWAMM. It's entirely optional.

Well then the only other definition of PvE would be "fun", wouldn't it? If nothing is a necessity, then neither is nerfing SF or UWSC.

UnChosen · Aug 10, 2009, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadgerzFTW

Yeah, but, the problem here is that assassins in PvE are completely useless without SF. you said it yourself, SF or GTFO is how it is with assassins, not other classes. Other classes actually have a use in most everything else, including most other SC's. Maybe some even have more than one use! (besides paragons). Devoting most of a bar to dagger attacks is useless in PvE, and critscythe is decent but most groups would rather use something else.

Completely agreed. I could careless how good their dagger attacks are...I still have to rush into the fray with shitty armor and no decent defense skill other than perma SF.

All non-secondary defense options for sins have some ridiculous requirements or downside. Ridiculously low uptime (feigned neutrality), being blinded as a melee class (shadow sanctuary), delayed heal that requires attacking to have full effect (Shadow refuge), ends on attack (dark escape + feigned neutrality), teleporting to random location and risk the chance of getting aggro on a backline char (heart of shadows)....the only decent one is critical agility, and even that requires constant attacking to be kept up and is stripable.

Sins also have to spend energy for attacks AND have to execute a combo in order....all that and sins still get overshadowed in damage by warrior auto attacking and spamming adrenaline attacks...and the war can still fit in a healing skill without extra attribute investment (Lion's comfort), an IAS (without secondary investment), a superior IMS compared to dash (also without secondary investment), and also the totally superior SY! which outclassed all the shitty PvE skills that sins have.

As for shadow form....it doesn't really overpowers anything outside of UWSC and FowSC. Change the mobs in UW/FoW, leave the skill.