Curse

Silverblad3 · Aug 04, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

I have read all the posts here and there does seem be a vocal minority who no longer play or are retired and seem so passionate in dictating to others their opinion about the way the game should be played, some of these folks are also disrepectful to posters here....

Really, if you are not playing the game any more and not affected by SF etc then why get so worked up about it? Who cares? It is a game? Play it the way you want to play it. There are different play styles.

Anyway, I have lost respect for some of the more prominient members of the guru forum in the way they conduct themselves in this thread, not that it matters right?

Silver.

Ugh · Aug 04, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

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Originally Posted by Fire Turok

WE spent OUR money on this game so it should be how I want!!!11!11! *whine*

I spent money on this game, as well. I would like it to be balanced.

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Its amazing how much this looks like the Ursan Thread right before Anet nerfed that.

Sounds like a good omen.

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I have read all the posts here and there does seem be a vocal minority who no longer play or are retired and seem so passionate in dictating to others their opinion about the way the game should be played

I still play. I want a nerf.

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Really, if you are not playing the game any more and not affected by SF etc then why get so worked up about it? Who cares? It is a game? Play it the way you want to play it. There are different play styles.

Because I am still playing, I am affected by SF, and there are not different play styles. Not anymore, anyway. Now I have to use SF or sit in the outpost. And that is how SF affects my gaming experience (@ all the people who were asking that). SF severely restricts my gaming options by forcing me to make an assassin if I want to clear UW. The old clears that I found fun are no longer ran.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

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Originally Posted by Ugh

I am affected by SF, and there are not different play styles. Not anymore, anyway. Now I have to use SF or sit in the outpost. And that is how SF affects my gaming experience (@ all the people who were asking that). SF severely restricts my gaming options by forcing me to make an assassin if I want to clear UW. The old clears that I found fun are no longer ran.

I love this argument. Aside from being patently false (I got my UW statue on my ranger after UWSC was born), it makes a lot of faulty assumptions. The biggest one being "With no UWSC anymore, I'll be able to get a pug on whatever class/build I want."

Yeah, because pugs are going to be falling all over themselves to get your non-imbagon para or Communing Rit into their groups.

No, they're going to go with what works. If your whinging works and you get the widespread nerfs you so desire, and there isn't a new gimmick that comes up in a week, you'd better be running Holy Trinity if you want to see the inside of UW with a pug.

Ugh · Aug 04, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

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Originally Posted by Targren

I love this argument. Aside from being patently false (I got my UW statue on my ranger after UWSC was born)

With a PUG? Lucky you.

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it makes a lot of faulty assumptions. The biggest one being "With no UWSC anymore, I'll be able to get a pug on whatever class/build I want."

Yeah, because pugs are going to be falling all over themselves to get your non-imbagon para or Communing Rit into their groups.

No, they're going to go with what works.

Not sure who you're arguing with here. I don't have a Para or a Rit, I never said that I wanted to form a group with poor synergy and planning to clear UW, and I'm well aware that people are going to go with what works. As long as an elite area in Hard Mode can't be cleared in a ridiculously short period of time by a team of Assassins all abusing the same skill, I'm going to be pretty content. I don't expect there to suddenly be BYOB groups in ToA. There will be a new meta, but it should not be as stupidly fast and simple as the current one.

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If your whinging works and you get the widespread nerfs you so desire

Shadow Form is one skill.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 02:09 PM // 14:09

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Originally Posted by Ugh

With a PUG? Lucky you.

HAH! Hardly. I won't even pug for Great Northern Wall.

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a group with poor synergy and planning

If that's not the dictionary definition of PUG, it should be.

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As long as an elite area in Hard Mode can't be cleared in a ridiculously short period of time by a team of Assassins all abusing the same skill, I'm going to be pretty content.

Ah. So you want them nerfed because you don't approve of what they are doing. That is a far cry from the claim that "If I want to play UW I have to be an assassin." that you made earlier, and your issue has shifted from "it effects my play" (it doesn't) to "It's wrong and I'm going to moralize on the issue".

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There will be a new meta, but it should not be as stupidly fast and simple as the current one.

And you will be forced into that meta too. So your arguments are hypocrisy at best. And if you think UWSC is simple, try it. I won't even be dicky enough to suggest mountains. Start with an easy one. Go vale and see how well you do without practice.

Star Gazer · Aug 04, 2009, 02:13 PM // 14:13

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Do you expect me to believe you aren't 1 of these noobs who doesn't want his precious UWSC taken away and is prepared to go to any lengths to avoid it?

loads of respect for people that use that word. only immature people use this word. oh wait.

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Why should i have any faith in future products when they've made such a crap job of this 1 in its later years?

don't buy any more of their products again. I am sure regular people will enjoy not seeing the likes of a whiny brat wanting things done their way.

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Ever since EotN was released they've gone from 1 bad decision to the next, 1 delayed update to the next.

so not only are you demanding that anet abides by your commands, but you insult them at the same time. excellent.

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I honestly don't care if the people who do UWSC quit when it gets nerfed, wtf were they bringing to the game?

and let me ask you fine sir, what exactly do you bring to the game that seperates you from others? oh right....uh...what was it again?

MastrSplintr18 · Aug 04, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

It doesn't really matter if you nerf SF. The problem with GW in this regard (note: I LOVE the game, so this is not a cutting rant) is that because they want their end-game to be PvP, the PvE is too standardized. Going in to an area you know what enemies you're going to face, what skills and skill levels they are going to have, and exactly where they will be (for the most part). At that point, its all just math (and timing skills) to figure out the most efficient way to beat a given area. If UWSC are nerfed via SF, then the next mathematically efficient build will take its place.

What you would need in these areas is a certain amount of randomization for enemies. For example, if they are mesmers, give them 2 attributes and they get 4-6 random skills from those attributes. The more you have to prepare for, the less direct you can be with your build and the harder it would be to farm these areas. This goes not only for solo builds, but team builds as well. You would see more creative ways of getting through these areas that will take longer.

Personally, I just want there to be parity. If they aren't going to stop assassins from being able to solo farm, then they need to allow all professions to solo farm by some whacky build (not necessarily the same area, but at least somewhere in the game like 600's have SoO, Earth Eles can farm Raptors and Vatteirs). I agree, that perhaps these elite areas should not be farmable, since they are meant to be elite areas, but as long as everyone can farm something, its not so bad.

Tullzinski · Aug 04, 2009, 02:24 PM // 14:24

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Originally Posted by Avarre

His points aren't valid, and I'll answer your simple question to explain why.

From a player's perspective, making things easier is always going to make them happy. From RMT to mods to UWSC, players like to have things given to them quicker and easier. That doesn't affect my gameplay at all.

However, I'm not even talking from a player's perspective, I'm talking from an overall design perspective. A solid game with high replayability does not benefit from making the game shallower/easier, nor does the developer doing it inspire trust in future developments. It simply shows lazy game design and poor judgment for the long run, at the expense of short-term profit/player fun.

The 'doesn't affect your gameplay' argument simply isn't valid when talking about game design and no longer needs an explanation every time someone throws it out.

From a player's perspective, making things harder is always going to make them unhappy...

I am trying to think of a MMO that is near perfectly designed that players have not found a preferred build that everyone "exploits". Nothing is jumping out at me.

It is my opinion that this whole nerfing business just amounts to beating your head against the wall. It is human nature to "beat" the game and allow you to kick ass.

Ugh · Aug 04, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

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Originally Posted by Targren

HAH! Hardly. I won't even pug for Great Northern Wall.

PUGs were what I was talking about. You clearing UW with your friends or Guildmates doesn't change the fact that UWSC is the only thing that PUGs will do.

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Ah. So you want them nerfed because you don't approve of what they are doing. That is a far cry from the claim that "If I want to play UW I have to be an assassin." that you made earlier, and your issue has shifted from "it effects my play" (it doesn't) to "It's wrong and I'm going to moralize on the issue".

I'm not allowed to have more than one argument? And, yea, it does affect my play.

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And you will be forced into that meta too. So your arguments are hypocrisy at best.

If the new meta isn't as ridiculously effective as the current, then It will be less impossible to get a group doing something other than the meta. In my opinion, the meta should be the most efficient way, but not so efficient that everything else is immediately dismissed as a possibility.

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And if you think UWSC is simple, try it. I won't even be dicky enough to suggest mountains. Start with an easy one. Go vale and see how well you do without practice.

I was basing that comment on what I've read on the forums. So, I guess I didn't really have any place to say it. Sorry if I was misinformed. And no, I'm not going to make an Assassin just to do UWSC.

Avarre · Aug 04, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

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Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I am trying to think of a MMO that is near perfectly designed that players have not found a preferred build that everyone "exploits". Nothing is jumping out at me.

It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to not continually make implementations that worsen the problem.

Either nothing is imbalanced to make things even, or everything is imbalanced to make things a hackfest (ie: Diablo 2). Consider PvE an actual challenge or clearly demarcate it as nothing more than a farm for all. GW is caught between the two, trying to be both and not particularly fabulous at either.

My slant towards keeping it as the former (nothing massively imbalanced) is because GW started closer to that point, and if I wanted the latter, I'd play Diablo 2. I liked the game then and see no reason why it needed to change in such a bizarre and poorly-designed manner.

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Originally Posted by Targren

And you will be forced into that meta too. So your arguments are hypocrisy at best

Meta and 'best possible option' are not total overlaps. Meta simply implies a build that is highly familiar and the 'fashion' to run. It does not, however, have to be the most effective build, for example the Mantra of Frost GC/Winter builds in early DoA. A large part of the problem is that currently the most effective builds are the easiest builds as well.

clear · Aug 04, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

This is an outrage!!! How dare they even think such things.... Oh wait I don't even play Assassin. Oh well.

Dzjudz · Aug 04, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

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Originally Posted by Ugh

If the new meta isn't as ridiculously effective as the current, then It will be less impossible to get a group doing something other than the meta. In my opinion, the meta should be the most efficient way, but not so efficient that everything else is immediately dismissed as a possibility. And no, I'm not going to make an Assassin just to do UWSC.

So you don't mind a meta that probably excludes 7/10 professions from the teambuild, but it's just because you don't have an assassin that you dislike the current meta. And yes, UWSC is easy, if you have any experience permaforming. Mnts is easy too, just run there and start wanding. If you die, it's because of bad spawns or you ran in some traps or lag, it's not because it's difficult.

I, for one, wouldn't like to see SF nerfed. I've had a permasin for a few months now, and it helped me run my secondary account a few places or through a few missions. I recently did a couple of weeks of UWSC to get my first set of obsidian armor. Now I've had enough of it for a while. SF is a good way to make some money dungeon running, but the same can be accomplished with a monk. Other people farming their brains out aren't affecting my gameplay at all, except maybe that some items have become a little cheaper, which is only good in my opinion.

And some nerfs are very easy. For example, it's extremely simple to completely nerf Voltaic Spear farming out of existence: make it so the wall between the entrance and Thommis' chest doesn't open until all party members have opened the chest. How simple of a nerf is that?

Ugh · Aug 04, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

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Originally Posted by Dzjudz

So you don't mind a meta that probably excludes 7/10 professions from the teambuild, but it's just because you don't have an assassin that you dislike the current meta.

Yes, ignore all of my other points and focus on that detail. If I wanted to partake in this meta, I would make a sin and get him to ToA. Leveling to 20 in Factions and buying an elite sin tome for 3k is not an arduous task.

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And yes, UWSC is easy, if you have any experience permaforming. Mnts is easy too, just run there and start wanding. If you die, it's because of bad spawns or you ran in some traps or lag, it's not because it's difficult.

I, for one, wouldn't like to see SF nerfed. I've had a permasin for a few months now, and it helped me run my secondary account a few places or through a few missions. I recently did a couple of weeks of UWSC to get my first set of obsidian armor.

That's another thing that annoys me. "I feel like getting obsidian armor." *loads up perma build and effortlessly gets the armor within a few weeks* Seems like a slap in the face to all the people who actually earned it without abusing SF or 600 monking.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

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Originally Posted by Ugh

PUGs were what I was talking about. You clearing UW with your friends or Guildmates doesn't change the fact that UWSC is the only thing that PUGs will do.
I'm not allowed to have more than one argument? And, yea, it does affect my play.
If the new meta isn't as ridiculously effective as the current, then It will be less impossible to get a group doing something other than the meta.

If by "a group" you mean "a PUG" again, then you're deluding yourself. If you're pugging, you WILL run meta, or you will not pug. It has been that way since day one. It was why they QQed for Ursan Nerf, it was why they QQed for Cryway nerf, and it is why they are QQing for shadow form nerf.

You WILL run meta if you want to pug. If your argument is that you believe, for whatever reason, that you should not have to play meta with a pug, you're apparently new to MMOs.

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In my opinion, the meta should be the most efficient way, but not so efficient that everything else is immediately dismissed as a possibility.

You're entirely welcome to your opinion. Reality disagrees (although it doesn't depend nearly as much on efficiency as you think, just popularity). There's a reason that PUGs never change the meta, they only adopt it. It's because the friend/guild groups are the ones coming up with the new builds/teams that become the new metas.

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Originally Posted by Ugh

Yes, ignore all of my other points and focus on that detail. If I wanted to partake in this meta, I would make a sin and get him to ToA. Leveling to 20 in Factions and buying an elite sin tome for 3k is not an arduous task. Also, isn't it excluding 8/10 professions? It's all sins and a necro, right?

Vale support can be a necro or a monk. Necros are just preferred. So again, you are just objecting to this meta because YOU don't like it, and everyone should have to play your way. You've said as much here. You could do it easily, you choose not to. Therefore, everyone who enjoys the current meta should have to adapt to the mighty Ugh's playstyle, because he's more important than they are.

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That's another thing that annoys me. "I feel like getting obsidian armor." *loads up perma build and effortlessly gets the armor within a few weeks* Seems like a slap in the face to all the people who actually earned it without abusing SF or 600 monking.

That argument is nothing more than e-peen waving and no sane developer should even consider it (which means Anet probably will). "Baaawwwwww. It's gotten easier to get this rare item in 4 years so now mine doesn't show everyone how uber-1337 I am!!1one!"

In short, tough noogies.

Dzjudz · Aug 04, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

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Originally Posted by Ugh

Yes, ignore all of my other points and focus on that detail. If I wanted to partake in this meta, I would make a sin and get him to ToA. Leveling to 20 in Factions and buying an elite sin tome for 3k is not an arduous task. Also, isn't it excluding 8/10 professions? It's all sins and a necro, right?

Yes, I was talking about the 'new' meta you are going for, that will probably exclude 7/10 profession (just an educated guess based on all previous speed clear metas).

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That's another thing that annoys me. "I feel like getting obsidian armor." *loads up perma build and effortlessly gets the armor within a few weeks* Seems like a slap in the face to all the people who actually earned it without abusing SF or 600 monking.

So? I played for over 4 years now. I haven't gotten a q9 Voltaic Spear or an eternal blade or any other high value item dropped for me in all that time. Does that mean I'm pissed at the people who have? No. Did those people 'earn' their obsidian armor more because they got a high value item dropped? No. I'm playing for me. People running bogroot growths 24/7 collecting all kinds of frog scepters and getting insanely rich from them (just one example of a SF speedclear) doesn't bother me at all. I say let them. Maybe it will drive the price down so I can buy one without doing weeks of UWSC or equivalent.

Fire Turok · Aug 04, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

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Originally Posted by Spiritweaver

I've bought all the campaigns and the expansion. Aswell as some CE. I spent a good deal on the game too.

Do I not have the right to play a balanced game? One where all professions have an equal chance at doing a particular area?

The only lame skill update was the one that un-nerfed Shadow Form in the first place.

All proffessions are equal, it's how you USE them.

And what would assassins be without perma? you tell me the answer to that one

Fire Turok · Aug 04, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

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Originally Posted by Ugh

I spent money on this game, as well. I would like it to be balanced.

Sounds like a good omen.

I still play. I want a nerf.

Because I am still playing, I am affected by SF, and there are not different play styles. Not anymore, anyway. Now I have to use SF or sit in the outpost. And that is how SF affects my gaming experience (@ all the people who were asking that). SF severely restricts my gaming options by forcing me to make an assassin if I want to clear UW. The old clears that I found fun are no longer ran.

wow, shows how much of a idiot you are, messing up other peoples posts

MithranArkanere · Aug 04, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

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Originally Posted by Fire Turok

All proffessions are equal, it's how you USE them.

And what would assassins be without perma? you tell me the answer to that one

Oi, oi.

Are all professions equal?
Just check this:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill

They don't even have the same options when it comes to skills.

Professions are far from equal, that's why skill changes must be done so frequently to keep the game moving, add power when it's lacking, remove it when it's excessive and change them when there is no way to make any of both.

Shadow Form is one of the examples.
It can't have power removed without becoming useless, and can't have power added without becoming excessive.

It must be changed.

Anyways, anything with 'Speed Clear' on its name is to be utterly destroyed until it becomes just 'clear' without the 'speed'.

No single profession should be able to do in 10 minutes what takes 1 or 2 hours for the rest.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

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Originally Posted by Spiritweaver

Do I not have the right to play a balanced game? One where all professions have an equal chance at doing a particular area?

When such a game is invented, let us know. To my knowledge, there has never been a game with multiple classes/jobs/specializations/whatever, single player or otherwise, that has exhibited such perfect balance.

slowerpoke · Aug 04, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Trends like these have a habit of repeating. A super efficient farm build is formed, its heavily used and in time its nerfed. Only to be replaced by another super efficient farm build.

Wouldn't it be boring if you all were still farming griffins because ANet chose not to add all those scarabs?

Point is, use it while its there, and accept if somethings to good to be true, it probably is.