Curse

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 04, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You are wrong in saying that 5 random PvE players can easily streak.

Well, I admit pulling "5 pve players" out of the hat is a bit of a longshot. Also when I use "pve player" in this context I don't actually mean getting a guy straight out of a dungeon, I mean "pve player" in the way it's normally used here on guru. That is a person who RAs, ABs or does some casual gvg/HA - pretty much someone like myself. (I've been called pve scrub enough times to assume I am one) I consistently get long streaks with completely random people in CB if I can convince them to listen to my advice and tactics so I'm fairly certain I could replicate a long streak given 4 other pve'ers like myself and access to vent.

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Second, syncing is actually NOT easy to do. Usually, your sync ends up being split in to 2-3 teams, and getting 5 people together is a low probability exception. This seemed to be the case even in districts that that looked completely empty. So unless you planned and were capable of completing 100+ runs, syncing probably wouldn't even be worth the set up time.

The chances were actually VERY high. I faced 11 other sync teams the entire event in all, even when I didn't sync myself. You probably feel this way because you played maybe a dozen games the entire event.

I replied to Thevil King and his full team sync. So like me you are both right and wrong, basically because you are replying to a statement I didn't make. A "half sync" will obviously be completely at the mercy of the 1-3 randoms and luck when one of them leaves for dinner.

And I actually played a lot of CB games. I ran into lots of syncs as well but very rarely did I face a full sync. I played the korean districts to get away from all the necros and dervishes in english districts so I accepted fighting more sync teams this way. Had only significant problems with teams of 4+ synced people. One team used 2 sins and 2 eles for coordinated spikes, in terms of "dishonor" I think that team is directly qualified.

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 04, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SluggyTheZealot

The situation after the initial mobbing has already been laid out.

1) Leaving BC towards center allows the splitting team to get the second health, while simultaneously moving with most (or all) of their team to start neutralizing BC. If you think you have time to move back from center and gank them with your speed boost, good luck getting any kills when the split team has both health shrines and is converging from all angles to make it a 5v5.

2) Leaving BC as a mob toward your old health shrine means the guy that came in behind to neutralize will just run away, probably back under the bridge and wrap around to meet his team who should already be capping BC. This is a huge loss of time.

I think Hallvard agrees that both of these situations are not favorable, but I can't speak for him.

I agree on both of those situations.

I just don't see how you end up with your full team on BC completely giving up all the other shrines. If you hold BC and 1 health shrine you are able to go 1v1 against similar professions(ie. sin v sin). It's impossible to cover all the possibilites after such a 5-0 opening. The bc team should most definitely split at this point, but being ready to collapse back on bc if a split moves in. You can afford giving up bc if you are likely to get a quick kill forcing a 4v5 at bc or similar. Like I said if you hold bc and 1 health shrine you can accept all otherwise equal match-ups, you can chase down anything and you can escape skirmishes where you are outplayed. It's just theoretical that the split team will be able to win on shrine morale alone, over such a long period of time you are bound to get caught and killed.

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 04, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevil King

OK... first i'd like to point out that we did not use vent or any of the like.
And regarding the fact that syncing leading to me believing that the tactics i described are superior:
1.nearly all of our teammates were HB plaeyrs, who ended up on the top 50 at least...now despite what you think of HB, it is very similar to CB, especially the concept of shrines, capping, morales, and so forth. So before CB we had our own experience of such tactics, and all agreed on this. In other words, we had very good evidence that our tactics are superior even BEFORE CB was started.
2.In this entire event, especially in the last few days, we played against almost as many sync teams(good ones,too) as we did randoms. The result was that we won most of them, this further supports my view.

I like the way you argue, bringing arguments instead of flames to a guru discussion is not the norm. I commend you for that.

What you say gives more weight to your claim of having a superior tactic. Just having 5 people agree on a tactic beforehand is a huge plus. Also that you fought and won vs other sync teams at least indicates that yours was of better quality.

Obviously the flipside is that 5 people agreeing on something in CB will alone win matches. Just think of the random teams wanting to go 5-0 center shrine on the 3-shrine map but having 1 of them deciding to go on a split instead.

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Well, i was only describing one of many possible situations. Believe it or not, when we played this match, it was exactly as i described. Now you may give as many objections as you liek against this, but mind you this is on a forum, and you can have as much time as you like to think about this, so of course u can give these objections. Id liek to see u do what u describe in game.

I'm sure it happened, it happened for me many times as well. My team splits(like yours) and the other team sends 5 to bc. While capping bc I would move over the bridge and cap the health they just left behind. But the fact remains, I was completely shocked every time that they just let me do this. I would keep an eye on mesmers and eles so I could run back if they seemed eager to snare me. They rarely did. It is my opinion that if a team lets you do this they are bad and you would have rolled them regardless of tactics.

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Well, if i'm not mistaken, we both agree on the importance of capping. Now i cant make a judgement on your views as to capping in relation to fighting, but where i stand on that would be: capping should be slightly more important than fighting, of course this is subject to changes depending on the situation, and that they both support and compliment eachother. That is, u simply cannot neglect one and expect to win(tho it is possible, but unlikely).

We probably agree in practice, but in theory my goal is to get kills. Capping is only a means to an end. Scoring kills without bc against good players is near impossible, the health shrines are also vital in this respect. As I said I will nearly ignore energy and morale shrines since they offer no bonus to fighting. I will only cap them if it's convenient to do so, if it will make the other team try to recap them so I can steal a more important shrine meanwhile etc.

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As for capping and splitting, I agree with you on most of the splits, however I do not believe that 5-0 is the way to go, on any maps at all. Normally my team starts 2-3 on the forest map, 2-1-2 on the grassy map, and 2-3 on the 3shrine map(3 on teleport,2 at gate).

If you split 2-3 on the 3-shrine map as red when I'm blue you're already in big trouble. Your 2 will face 4 of mine on bc, you can retreat back to base or risk getting snared and killed by pushing through bridge to center.

Your 3 on the teleport I don't know how you will use but if any of them goes after my 1 split he will retreat back through tele and join up with team going for center already having bc by now. If your 3 all go for center I will send 3 from bc and 1 from base collapsing on your team with bc soon to be capped.

IMO that map simply favors red for going 5-0 bc. Red has the shortest way to the best shrine, they will respawn nearby if they die cutting down on time spent running to battle. Blue should split for the same reason, they are at a tactical disadvantage going 5v5 over the bc since casualities take longer to replace. Although given my 2 optimal openings red will hold bc and blue center+energy, leaving red still at advantage.

Feathermoore Rep · Nov 04, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

I didn't shift my grounds. Not needing more than 2 people and only really needing 1 to tackle most professions are two valid statements. In fact, you can send 2 to rape those professions that are solable if you want to ensure you kill the kiting player quickly. But it remains that you should only need one. 2 is just extra bonus support.

Ok perhaps i should of said, you said you never need more than 2 people, and in fact you really only should need 1 for more classes, but thats just my grammer choice. Moot point.

As for you have all 4-0 shrines capped. Theres just no way you can recap the opp. side health shrine before the 5-0 split caps both HP and BC. First you only sent two people to your HP shrine. Its going to take you the whole time that we cap HP and part of BC to fully cap your HP. That still leaves the run under the bridge to our BC, and begining to neutralize our HP. At this point, you have 2 people forcing center, 1 at our HP with 1 running to help, and 1 WAY on the other side trying to sneak across the bridge. This is full of options to force your splits into a retreat with 5 people having already capped BC and probably already deciding on a split tactic.

There's no way you can assume you will have both HP shrines. We've already determined Energy shrine has no fighting bonus, only morale bonus. So mostly likely scenario is that both teams with have an HP shrine, while 5-0 rush has BC and other has Energy. Center shrine here is only shrine left to decided.

The next tactics are completely dependant upon where exactly on the map each player is, and which are easy to pressure without the ability to be supported by their teammates.

As for tactics on 3-shrine. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOk the energy shrine its only worth morale. Let the other team split to have it. Thats more time they spend kiting away while my team is capping something. As for which side is quicker to BC, i think tele>bridge>bc is quicker than the team that spawns directly infront of BC. (I forget colors)

And i said understand basic game mechanics, not space=attack and numbers make skills happen. Thats not game mechanics thats just commands. Understanding mechanics, mean you know how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO to you use you skill bar, and what snares and kiting is.

Saint said it pretty well, " but in theory my goal is to get kills. Capping is only a means to an end. Scoring kills without bc against good players is near impossible, the health shrines are also vital in this respect. As I said I will nearly ignore energy and morale shrines since they offer no bonus to fighting. I will only cap them if it's convenient to do so, if it will make the other team try to recap them so I can steal a more important shrine meanwhile etc."

Which is why i keep saying that killing trumps capping and that capping only serves to introduce tactics and movement into a format that is mainly kill count, allow teams that have more skill, but worse team builds to win.

Perfected Shadow · Nov 04, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevil King

For people saying fighting is more important than capping, thats just a big joke. The only reason my team was able to get epic streaks such as this:

is because you synced with your alliance (which is notorious for syncing). No need to read further.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

is because you synced with your alliance (which is notorious for syncing). No need to read further.

LOLOLOLOLMFAOBBQ

Dude my alliance is so new that the only festival event we have even played was this yrs CB(which started 2weeks ago). are you droppin some acid dude? how in the world can my alliance be notorious for anything when we just created it in less then about 1month???? this is the biggest joke ive heard all week lololol

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Obviously the flipside is that 5 people agreeing on something in CB will alone win matches. Just think of the random teams wanting to go 5-0 center shrine on the 3-shrine map but having 1 of them deciding to go on a split instead.

Ok, maybe i need to rephrase myself better. What i meant to say was, the tactics ive described was, in essence, HB tactics tailored for the purpose of Cb. Given HB being 1v1, the claim that our tactic was superior was independently proven, by me and my friends in our hb experience.

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I'm sure it happened, it happened for me many times as well. My team splits(like yours) and the other team sends 5 to bc. While capping bc I would move over the bridge and cap the health they just left behind. But the fact remains, I was completely shocked every time that they just let me do this. I would keep an eye on mesmers and eles so I could run back if they seemed eager to snare me. They rarely did. It is my opinion that if a team lets you do this they are bad and you would have rolled them regardless of tactics.

Well, when i posted this scenarior, i was only trying to respond to the challenge for me to give an example where i can outcap my opponent without fighting in the start(which i did, hence this scenario). Of course, I did expect all these objections, but my original purpose was fulfilled. That is, through this example i proven that it is indeed possible. As for theyre bad, yes but not always. In fact, one team did this to us and we won, but the same team beat us on another map using the exact same tactic.

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We probably agree in practice, but in theory my goal is to get kills. Capping is only a means to an end. Scoring kills without bc against good players is near impossible, the health shrines are also vital in this respect. As I said I will nearly ignore energy and morale shrines since they offer no bonus to fighting. I will only cap them if it's convenient to do so, if it will make the other team try to recap them so I can steal a more important shrine meanwhile etc.

Well u see, u only got half the picture here. The "end" is to score pts and win, and both capping and fighting serves to achieve that. Like i said before many times, these 2 build upon eachother. If you want to secure a fight, you need cap to help u out(this is almost always the case, because u simply cannot assume taht u will win every fight without the advantage in cap). In a similar fashion, if u want to secure the shrine, u will have to fight(this, however, is not always the case, because there are many times where u do not need to fight in order to cap).

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If you split 2-3 on the 3-shrine map as red when I'm blue you're already in big trouble. .......

.....

..... Although given my 2 optimal openings red will hold bc and blue center+energy, leaving red still at advantage.

Ok, for cases liek red going 5-0 bc, this is normally what we do:
the 3 on teleport go to cap center instead bc, and 2 cap energy(if needed, 1 of the 2 will move to center). So when red finishes capping bc, and is moving towards center, the 1 or 2 at energy will go back to base and teleport, then try to cap bc. Now if red decides to send every1 to center, then the 3 just have to move back until we got bc. If red sends only 3 or 4 to center, then the ppl from teleport will join the fight at center, making it a 5v3 or 5v4. After forcing a kill, we rush bc.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feathermoore Rep

I didn't shift my grounds. Not needing more than 2 people and only really needing 1 to tackle most professions are two valid statements. In fact, you can send 2 to rape those professions that are solable if you want to ensure you kill the kiting player quickly. But it remains that you should only need one. 2 is just extra bonus support.

Ok perhaps i should of said, you said you never need more than 2 people, and in fact you really only should need 1 for more classes, but thats just my grammer choice. Moot point.

Fine then ill give you 1. Now lets imagine a 1v1 then, say sin vs sin(since this is the most popular class this event). Both sins use palm strike, then sig of malice. If you know anything about the game, these 2 are skills, not atks, in otherwords, bc does nothing to determine which sin uses it faster. the point i was making was that, bc is not "priceless" as you claim. I am also pointing out that, even if you do have bc, the player cannot guaratee the kill in a 1v1. This is why i presented the scenario where 2 or 3 players chasing down 1 player.

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As for you have all 4-0 shrines capped. Theres just no way you can recap the opp. side health shrine before the 5-0 split caps both HP and BC....

...

...dependant upon where exactly on the map each player is, and which are easy to pressure without the ability to be supported by their teammates.

k enough with ur criticizing of my scenario. i know these are all possible cases taht ur pointing out, but geuss what? i can come up with even more possible ways that team can play. Nevertheless, the example ive describe was one that happened EXACTLY as i described, no matter how many possibilities u think up. u see, i did not give this scenario to have every1 criticize how stupid the team was, how they should played, etc. The whole reason i provided that scenario was to answer your challenge of capping all or most shrines without fighting in the start, which i did.

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As for tactics on 3-shrine. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOk the energy shrine its only worth morale. Let the other team split to have it. Thats more time they spend kiting away while my team is capping something. As for which side is quicker to BC, i think tele>bridge>bc is quicker than the team that spawns directly infront of BC. (I forget colors)

ok so u choose to 5-0 the bc shrine instead of center,fair enough. Read how my team would play in response to that in the previous post.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

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And i said understand basic game mechanics, not space=attack and numbers make skills happen. Thats not game mechanics thats just commands. Understanding mechanics, mean you know how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO to you use you skill bar, and what snares and kiting is.

lol....this is all you need to know to play cb? i dont think so. This "basic game mechanics" in your definition should be instead called "basic ways of how to play RA/TA/CA". Simply knowing these are not sufficient enough to do well in CB.

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Saint said it pretty well, " but in theory my goal is to get kills. Capping is only a means to an end. Scoring kills without bc against good players is near impossible, the health shrines are also vital in this respect. As I said I will nearly ignore energy and morale shrines since they offer no bonus to fighting. I will only cap them if it's convenient to do so, if it will make the other team try to recap them so I can steal a more important shrine meanwhile etc."

Which is why i keep saying that killing trumps capping and that capping only serves to introduce tactics and movement into a format that is mainly kill count, allow teams that have more skill, but worse team builds to win.

ok.....so it all comes back to where it begins, this is not going anywhere so let me present 2 cases and argument that are deductive in nature. That is, if u accept the facts that i present, you must agree to the conclusion regardless of how u liek it or not:
First case.
lets say ur team is losing, 7-0 or 8-0. The opposing team has all shrines capped and is waiting outside your base for u to come out. Now at this point, if u know anything about cb at all, u would know that the game is pretty much over, uve lost. But how do u know that? Is it because the team has all shrines capped? or because theyre mobbing infront of ur base so u cant get out? The obvious answer would be, its a combination of both the fact that the opposing team has all the shrines AND is mobbing infront of ur base so u cant get out.
lets look at why this is so: if all u have all or most of the shrines on the map, but somehow for some reason u got grp wiped, and is all in ur base, and the opposing team does NOT cap ur shrines but rather mob in front of ur base to prevent u from getting out. This is pretty stupid right? u would know then u still have a chance to win the game. this is because u still got all these shrines outside, all u have to do is force a fight in front of the base, and beat them in this fight.(from this we conclude that only being able to fight and not neglecting caps is not the way to go)
now lets say ur grp has been wiped, and all ressed at base at the same time. You take a look, and the opposing team has all shrines on the map, but that team is dancing and doing all kinds of emotes at their own base. Thats stupid too, right? From this u would know that u also have a chance to win the game, because nobody is preventing ur team to get out of ur base and recap these shrines. (hence we can conclude that having caps is not good enough either)
From this we can see that, capping and fighting goes together: only having one but not the other is NOT good enough. This scenario tells us that only a COMBINATION of these 2 factors is desired in order to meet the ends of wining.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Heres a second case:
since u advocate fighting over capping, lets imagine a case where both teams play under this philosophy.
It is the forest map and both teams go 5-0 towards the BC shrine, since its so "priceless". THese 2 teams then engage in a 5v5. Now at this point, neither teams have an advantage, but still in this fight, there MUST be one team who loses. Lets say its ur team that loses this fight. You all die and get ressed in ur base. From this fight, u conclude that it is the opposing team is so much better than ur team in terms of fighting, that it is impossible for ur team to beat them in a fair fight. But, does this mean ur team should immediately resign, and whenever ur team plays this team again, ur team should keep resigning? Well, if you are really that bad, then ok u can rage quit. But for most people, clearly the answer is no.
Now if you answer no, what can you do that can possibly help you beat this team? Do you keep running out of ur base and force another fight with this team until you beat them in the fight? lol.....any1 who is not mentally retarded will say thats stupid. So your only solution is to cap: if you cannot beat them in a fair fight, try to outcap them, and when you gain an advantage in shrines, you fight again, but not so much with the purpose of making kills, as opposed to more of stalling and wearing this team down. Then you may have a chance of winning the match
From this case, we can conclude that a fight-only tactic is not good enough. Being able to fight is a good thing, but in CB that is not the only thing you're after, because even if ur team loses the fight, u can still back urself up with superior capping. Fight-only is for RA/TA/CA pvp arenas, not CB.

Xenex Xclame · Nov 05, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevil King

It is the forest map and both teams go 5-0 towards the BC shrine, since its so "priceless". THese 2 teams then engage in a 5v5. Now at this point, neither teams have an advantage,...

Wrong, whichever team has the most sins win,if that is the same, whichever team has to most mesmers.After that the better players win.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Wrong, whichever team has the most sins win,if that is the same, whichever team has to most mesmers.After that the better players win.

lol....i was refering to the advantage in terms of shrines. But your objection still does not affect my argument in anyway. Nevertheless, my team rarely ran more than 2 sins 1mesmer, sometimes none, yet we beat most 3/4/5 sin team. I'm sorry to say but, there is something called "skills" besides your buildwars(tho the majority of gw players has lost it).

Feathermoore Rep · Nov 05, 2009, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Blah blah blah yadda some more things and some more things ok. Read it.

Alright. First i'm going to say if you understand game mechanics, then obviously you have some clue about how to play the game. Aka, you should know what kiting, snaring, certain skills do, what their effects are and how they effect you, and what you can do against them. Basic game RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin mechanics. No? Knowing game controls means oh i know this button makes me wack wack on a guy. and this button makes bright lights appear and cause dmg. Doesn't mean you know what they did, but you know they did it.

As for the sin v sin, your right it doesn't determine who uses it faster. However increase movement speed does. Faster movement speed leads to quicker touch range, which means you get advantage on cast time, meaning you will get off sig of malice quicker. The only way you should lose is if your ping is >400, or you DC in and they guy is turned around and prepared to use PS. DCin against the sin is a bad decision anyway against a good player. Plus with +attack speed and +skill recharge, my chains recharge faster, even if i somehow lose on the first SoM.

No-its not a guarantee'd 1v1, but personally in CB its a risk i'd take with BC on my side, given the general skill of players in CB.

As for 8-0 and I'm sitting in my base. I'm probably already /resigned and afk. Obviously someone/something RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up big if its 8-0 and we're all in our base.

I've never said neglect capping. I just said I'm not going to go out of my way to cap something. Which is only because fighting was so strong in this years CB builds. Which i still hold is more important than capping.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feathermoore Rep

Blah blah blah yadda some more things and some more things ok. Read it.

Alright. First i'm going to say if you understand game mechanics, then obviously you have some clue about how to play the game. Aka, you should know what kiting, snaring, certain skills do, what their effects are and how they effect you, and what you can do against them. Basic game RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin mechanics. No? Knowing game controls means oh i know this button makes me wack wack on a guy. and this button makes bright lights appear and cause dmg. Doesn't mean you know what they did, but you know they did it.

lol......kiting, snaring, what skills do, even pve noobs know what that is. But that does not mean pve noobs will succeed in CB. Youre talking about the very basics of the game, and when we talk about tactics, its a given that the players SHOULD KNOW THESE BASICS. I mean, if you dont know these basics, your not going to do well in pvp AT ALL regardless how good ur tactics are. These are the fundementals if u even want to play gw lol.....

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As for the sin v sin, your right it doesn't determine who uses it faster. However increase movement speed does. Faster movement speed leads to quicker touch range, which means you get advantage on cast time, meaning you will get off sig of malice quicker. The only way you should lose is if your ping is >400, or you DC in and they guy is turned around and prepared to use PS. DCin against the sin is a bad decision anyway against a good player. Plus with +attack speed and +skill recharge, my chains recharge faster, even if i somehow lose on the first SoM.

lol wtf is this logic? i run faster so my cast time is faster? Getting into touch range is not the same as using skills lol....
Ok, have you played shock warrior in pvp? you should know that the one who runs in and shock will ALWAYS cast after the one who stands there and shock. In other words, you run in, cast your skills, its guaranteed that you get off sig slower than the player who just stands there and cast. lol @ +atk and +skill rec. Just think about it, sin auto atks (7-17) are even weaker than a wand(11-22), the only reason sin atks are good is because they have all thes atk skills. Once the sin gets all these conditions(psn,dw,bleeding) on the other sin, he can just malice off any further palm strikes.

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No-its not a guarantee'd 1v1, but personally in CB its a risk i'd take with BC on my side, given the general skill of players in CB.

So now you do admit that shrines do help u fight better....lol contradictions?

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As for 8-0 and I'm sitting in my base. I'm probably already /resigned and afk. Obviously someone/something RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up big if its 8-0 and we're all in our base.

I've never said neglect capping. I just said I'm not going to go out of my way to cap something. Which is only because fighting was so strong in this years CB builds. Which i still hold is more important than capping.

lol if your going to give up that easily, then all i can say is....gg, thx for pts and balth. But for my team, if i was on my streak and got 70wins alrdy, I'm sorry but I gotta do something to win the game back lol(hence my tactics)and yes, on a long streak its inevitable that people have to mess up sometimes, my teams had all these things happen to us: ppl afk, dc, lag, etc. Geuss what? it is absolutely possible, both theoretically and practically, to comeback when under such circumstances.

And fighting>capping? lol read my previous 2 cases, if you agree with these facts ive presented, then it is logically nessesary for you to also agree that capping forms the basis of which u can safely fight on. In otherwords, without the foundations of capping, u cannot succeed in CB no matter how good u are at fighting.

Feathermoore Rep · Nov 05, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

you give pve noobs a little more credit than they deserve, but okay.

Touch skills are only slower against stationary foes because auto-run forces you to be at the minimum range of adjacent to foe. Touch range starts just after adjacent range ends. It also depends if you are facing the target or not, if you are facing your target and are stationary, touch skills activate at max range. If you are facing backwards they activate almost at minimum range. With a speed boost just tap backward just outside of range to ensure that the skill activates at max range. Which gives you the advantage on cast time because the stationary player is waiting for you to run up next to him to activate his touch skill. I know how touch range works.

As for giving up, sorry i don't sync. If I'm losing 8-0 its cuz i rolled in with a fresh new set with baddies. I like playing with baddies. Sure it can be annoying, but it has its epic funny moments, and pwning bad kids. And even finding cool people that actually aren't bad at the game too.

And i've always said BC is worth?!

Sigh. I'm tired of running in circles. Its no longer fun to me. I'm going to agree to disagree.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 06:22 AM // 06:22

k.....so you continue to disagree but seems to run out of arguments. That does nothing to disprove my points. so im going to continue advocating cap and continue to farm even more "fighting" CBers next yr.

Mustache Mayhem · Nov 05, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

a sin with monk was fun- was nothing special to going on rolls in cb.. remember we went 10 in row with 4 assassins and a monk one time and I had to go.. was goofing around alot too

long as you setup the split you were usually good.. had one really good team we went 20-0 a couple times, screened em

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 05, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

It's not so much running out of arguments as it is a circular argument. You both agree you can't fight without capping and you can't cap without fighting.

The main difference seems to be the different values you put on the respective shrines. Thevil seems to view all shrines with a relatively speaking more even importance than does Feathermoore.

Personally I would rate the shrines this way: BC 100 pts, health 50, energy 20, morale 10. Meaning it would take 2 health shrines to "equal" bc in terms of relative importance. And having bc would be more important than holding one health, energy and morale combined. I'm guessing Thevil would rate energy and morale with slightly higher values.

The reason I believe that the determining factor in a match is fighting is because I assume that you usually get the most points from kills not points from morale pips. I haven't done any research but my guess would be that maybe 15 points come from kills and 5 from morale. I'm sure you could play defensively and stall fights maybe making the distribution 10-10 or so. But CB seems different from HB in the way you score points. Bars are fixed in CB and if you don't hold bc it's impossible to completely avoid a chasing foe, in HB you could warp around and avoid fights altogether.

Thevil King · Nov 05, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

It is very easy to mistaken that, since most points come from kills, kills are therefore more important. I argue taht the only reason you make so many points from these kills is because you have the advantages in shrines to back you up in these fights.u see, the kills are only possible under the premise that you cap. That is why i said fighting and capping build upon eachother, and support eachother in what they do. That is, they go together. Of course, i also argued that capping is slightly more important(this is subject to changes depending on the situation) because it is the foundation of capping that youre basing a safe fight off of.

I believe a more plausible way to determine which one is important, would be to find out how much time was spent doing these 2 in a match. Do you spend more time standing there and fight? or do u spend more time moving around and capping shrines? Though i do not have an exact answer for this, but it is pretty evenly split. Of course, this is assuming that both teams are evenly matched, and one team does not get rolled right away.

The impression i get from Feathermoore was that BC is "priceless" and should therefore be taken at all costs. That is a huge mistake, both in theory and in practise. Liek ive described in my second case, if we fight under this philosophy, we will not be able to win against teams who can fight better then us. This maybe the case in RA/TA/CA, where the better fighter wins, but certainly not in CB. THat is why i emphasized the importance of capping

~ Dan ~ · Nov 05, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

What an enjoyable Thevil King & Sankt Hallvard page. Thanks for not using the edit button.

P.S. Didn't read your posts though, hope i'm not missing anything.