Curse

Crippie its Tom · Nov 09, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

So we all know that for pugs UWSC has been nerfed with the addition of skeletons, raising ecto prices to ~6.5k. While this may seem like a great thing to everyone who hated the fact that people were commonly clearing the underworld in ~20 minutes (pugs), it has simply spawned the next generation of UW Speed Clear Builds, as well as increasing the likelihood of a FoWSC Sinway catching on with your average (former) UWSCer.

With the addition of skeletons, the two common farming/gimmick builds in HM UW are 600/smite, as well as SF still having some ability to do this. So, some smart people took those facts and created two additional builds-

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Monky_UWSC, which is 4 600/Smite teams that completed UW with an unconfirmed 25 minutes for the time.

The other one, which has already gotten some attention on this forum due to it's formerly offensive name is http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_Mobway. This build basically has 2 A/E's that run around and pop all the reapers and 5-6 A/D's who gang up on targets and beat them to death, completing the quests as a team that the A/E's cannot. Out of the current 3 publicly available UWSC builds (I'm sure other guilds are developing their own) I think that this one is the most likely to catch on with less serious guilds and pug groups.

The other build that has been brought to my attention is the http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_FoW_Sinway, which is able to clear the fissure of woe in ~15 minutes. What I find slightly comedic is the fact that a week after UWSC gets nerfed this goes public. I also think that this build has a high likelihood to catch on with pugs. At a glance this build looks incredibly pug-unfriendly, but you must remember that UWSC and even Ursanway with the triple terras were not pug friendly and looked overly complicated to begin with.

In the near future as these builds become more known and practiced by the public, more and more variants will emerge, making comparable times with the UWSC we once knew. What can Anet do short of a nerf to Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker? Honestly, the answer is beyond me.

~The_Crippster

Eragon Zarroc · Nov 09, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Who says the the skeletons are the only thing to be implemented for the nerf of UWSC? DHUUM is still to come!!! We will just have to wait and see.
;-)

Fay Vert · Nov 09, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

They could just nerf Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker

Immunity god mode skills just shouldn't exist in the game. Builds that have foolproof survivability in given situations are inevitable, and I suspect a good thing in the game, but the sheer ubiquity of these god mode builds is a massive problem. Given what they have nerfed out of existance in the past, it's pretty frustrating that they won't fix the truely game breaking skills.

Martin Alvito · Nov 09, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Blow up SF. Blow up OF. PvE/PvP split SB (it has PvP uses), giving it a *shorter* PvE duration. Solved.

Chocobo1 · Nov 09, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

Jessyi · Nov 09, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Blow up SF. Blow up OF. PvE/PvP split SB (it has PvP uses), giving it a *shorter* PvE duration. Solved.

This, ffs THIS.

SF has been the worst example of degenerate garbage forEVER. Why oh WHY does ANET have such a raging hardon for this skill that they can't relegate it to the shithole it's belonged in for SO long now?

snowman relic · Nov 09, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

They could just nerf Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker

Immunity god mode skills just shouldn't exist in the game. Builds that have foolproof survivability in given situations are inevitable, and I suspect a good thing in the game, but the sheer ubiquity of these god mode builds is a massive problem. Given what they have nerfed out of existance in the past, it's pretty frustrating that they won't fix the truely game breaking skills.

fay i belive u raise an interesting point but 90% of the time i am against the person im about to quote but for once i belive wat hes saying is actually good and true

quoting chocoboko1 or something sorry im terrible with spelling

Quote:

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

Meridon · Nov 09, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

SF has been the worst example of degenerate garbage forEVER. Why oh WHY does ANET have such a raging hardon for this skill that they can't relegate it to the shithole it's belonged in for SO long now?

Because that would make every PvE Assassin cry, and would make them not buy GW2. Anet is trying to find the middle way out of this to not turn their backs on either side, so future sales won't be put at risk. The result: some half-baked updates in an attempt to shut the anti-SF crowd.

Wuhy · Nov 09, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessyi

This, ffs THIS.

SF has been the worst example of degenerate garbage forEVER. Why oh WHY does ANET have such a raging hardon for this skill that they can't relegate it to the shithole it's belonged in for SO long now?

agreed. anet, you are doing it wrong.

Caligo · Nov 09, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

They could just nerf Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker

Immunity god mode skills just shouldn't exist in the game. Builds that have foolproof survivability in given situations are inevitable, and I suspect a good thing in the game, but the sheer ubiquity of these god mode builds is a massive problem. Given what they have nerfed out of existance in the past, it's pretty frustrating that they won't fix the truely game breaking skills.

Why don't they just remove these skills from the game entirely? Or /smiteboon and make them nonelites? I understand why SF should be nerfed, and I'm not against it completely. I do use it, but only as an advantage in farming. I'll be disappointed when it's nerfed, but I won't qq and quit, since there will be plenty of ways to farm. However, on the other two, you're getting pretty ridiculous. SB is SO far from "godmode"... 25sec duration and 45sec recharge is hardly permable. OF was given the 50% slower movement to balance the armor and invulnerability to spells. If you take away the armor or invulnerability to spells, this skill is pointless and may as well be removed from the elite list.

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious fact that you will NEVER be happy. You move from one 'meta' or 'op' skill or build to the next, crying relentlessly that it's imbalanced. Once SF is nerfed, what will you attack next? 600/smite, again? E/Me terras? How about instead whining constantly that it's not fair, you actually log on and play the game? We WILL NOT return to the 'balanced' team of a warrior tank and ele nukers. It's too slow. Plain and simple.

coil · Nov 09, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

thanks for the sinway link. time to learn fow roles.

people will always try to clear an area in the fastest time possible. if you're just going to bitch about the way people play the game instead of enjoying whats given to you, then you have bigger problems than sf/obs/sb

Polgara Val · Nov 09, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caligo

Why don't they just remove these skills from the game entirely? Or /smiteboon and make them nonelites? I understand why SF should be nerfed, and I'm not against it completely. I do use it, but only as an advantage in farming. I'll be disappointed when it's nerfed, but I won't qq and quit, since there will be plenty of ways to farm. However, on the other two, you're getting pretty ridiculous. SB is SO far from "godmode"... 25sec duration and 45sec recharge is hardly permable. OF was given the 50% slower movement to balance the armor and invulnerability to spells. If you take away the armor or invulnerability to spells, this skill is pointless and may as well be removed from the elite list.

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious fact that you will NEVER be happy. You move from one 'meta' or 'op' skill or build to the next, crying relentlessly that it's imbalanced. Once SF is nerfed, what will you attack next? 600/smite, again? E/Me terras? How about instead whining constantly that it's not fair, you actually log on and play the game? We WILL NOT return to the 'balanced' team of a warrior tank and ele nukers. It's too slow. Plain and simple.

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

evilseabass · Nov 09, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Blow up SF. Blow up OF. PvE/PvP split SB (it has PvP uses), giving it a *shorter* PvE duration. Solved.

I disagree with this blanket statement.

OF is fine as is because it only protects against spells. Skills and Attacks still hit, AND there is that horrible movement penalty...

SB is also fine as-is because it doesnt protect against skills and attacks either, just spells.

SF is broken because it protects against spells and attacks. The only way to hurt a perma-sin is by touching or no-target-specified AoE, which arent widely used by monsters in the game...

[edit] Also, the other problem with perma-sin is their ability to basically run past everything, kill a target, then move on to next objective. Take Oola's Lab dungeon for example: The perma runs through all of level 1, kills Xien, then picks up the key and moves to level 2. On level 2, they run past everything, kill golem, pick up key then move to level 3. If alone, the perma only has to kill the TPS golem to get reward...Its the same with almost everything a perma can run, i.e. they skip everything in between and simply get the rewards.

With a 600/Smite team, or a balanced team, they have to kill everything in-between...

Axel Zinfandel · Nov 09, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

Supply and Demand

Being able to farm elite areas easily = more supply = lower price.

While this isn't directly a bad thing, ectos and the like are constantly in demand, and the easier they are to get, the less rewarding it is for players once they have a good number of them, and it effects the price of nearly everything else.

So it's not just a simple matter of "if you don't like it don't use it", because it effects everyone, including the people who aren't using it.

KageNoShi · Nov 09, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

15 minutes you say..? *Puts down my book and picks up my staff* Time to do FoW I suppose since DoA is dead as usual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

people will always try to clear an area in the fastest time possible. if you're just going to bitch about the way people play the game instead of enjoying whats given to you, then you have bigger problems than sf/obs/sb

So true Coil.

Nereyda Shoaal · Nov 09, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Where operating a 600 requires some skill and knowing the mob you are against SF doesn't require almost anything. Monkey see monkey do. "When the color picture in the top left corner starts to blink press 1, 2 and 3". Very rarely avoiding AoE damage and/or signets

Polgara Val · Nov 09, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Supply and Demand

Being able to farm elite areas easily = more supply = lower price.

While this isn't directly a bad thing, ectos and the like are constantly in demand, and the easier they are to get, the less rewarding it is for players once they have a good number of them, and it effects the price of nearly everything else.

So it's not just a simple matter of "if you don't like it don't use it", because it effects everyone, including the people who aren't using it.

To a degree I agree with you, however not everyone in GW are farmers and farm for ectos they play the game to do just that, play it for its content rather then the crazy world that is farming

As a sidenote there are other ways to farm ectos without SF albeit slower of course.

Pol

Caligo · Nov 09, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Supply and Demand

Being able to farm elite areas easily = more supply = lower price.

While this isn't directly a bad thing, ectos and the like are constantly in demand, and the easier they are to get, the less rewarding it is for players once they have a good number of them, and it effects the price of nearly everything else.

So it's not just a simple matter of "if you don't like it don't use it", because it effects everyone, including the people who aren't using it.

So the power traders who make their money by taking advantage of ignorant traders are angry that their ectos are worth less because people made a sin, ranked up some titles, and waded through bad pugs and grinding to farm their fortune? Sounds completely legit.

Bug John · Nov 09, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

anti-SF crowd.

there's no such thing as an anti sf crowd, you can just find a bunch of loudmouths on guru

the problem is not sf, or any farming build... the problem is that elite areas are so poorly designed that they are nothing more than farming areas

you can nerf anything you want, people will keep on farming with another build, and you won't see them in your 4 hours uw "balanced" pug

Martin Alvito · Nov 09, 2009, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilseabass

OF is fine as is because it only protects against spells. Skills and Attacks still hit, AND there is that horrible movement penalty...

The movement penalty is easily negated with some combination of Essence, Rock Candy and Cupcakes. People are already eating Red Rocks; throw a Green Rock and a pair of Cupcakes at the problem and you're good for twenty minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilseabass

SB is also fine as-is because it doesnt protect against skills and attacks either, just spells.

The problem with SB is that it solves a 605/smite's sole vulnerability. Damage isn't an issue on a 605 if you're intelligent about aggro. Unless you want to put Signet of Disenchantment everywhere, hitting SB is the way to address that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilseabass

SF is broken because it protects against spells and attacks. The only way to hurt a perma-sin is by touching or no-target-specified AoE, which arent widely used by monsters in the game...

If the OF can still safely run past content like it's an SF sin with Mantra of Earth and Stone Striker, then we're right back where we started. Granted, it'll be a lot more expensive to eat all that junk...but that'll just factor into pricing of the outputs (items/ectos/runs). Skilled players will probably find ways. Eventually those tricks will disseminate into the community.