Curse

Bryant Again · Nov 14, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Exactly. I mean think about it: if the trolls in that cave recognized what Zealot's Fire did and knew to kite a lot of the time, and if attacking someone who has "Shield of Judgement" on them usually leads to "owie", then that would've been one of the few changes that would've lead to "farming" being ineffective. Even a typical animal in real life could recognize if something hurt them and to stay away from it.

UnChosen · Nov 14, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Easiest way to encourage a balanced team...code in an extra ~10k for a team that complete UW with a varied 8 player build setup, and watch everyone switch to balanced. And do this for every area in the game except vary the plat increase according to difficulty. Far easier than attempting to nerf their way to balanced build (NEVER works) or revamp the entire game AI and hope that a gimmick build won't break it again.

Arduin · Nov 15, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Easiest way to encourage a balanced team...code in an extra ~10k for a team that complete UW with a varied 8 player build setup, and watch everyone switch to balanced. And do this for every area in the game except vary the plat increase according to difficulty. Far easier than attempting to nerf their way to balanced build (NEVER works) or revamp the entire game AI and hope that a gimmick build won't break it again.

People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.

Golgotha · Nov 15, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.

.. and offer no gameplay advantages over the ugly skins.

Martin Alvito · Nov 15, 2009, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.

There's this thing called expected utility theory that lets us put a price on that shot at getting a rare weapon. That chance is much less valuable than you seem to think.

People speed clear for the ectos, or because they like to gamble.

UnChosen · Nov 15, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.

If people are not doing SC for the money, then this entire thread and all the previous 100 threads wouldn't exist. The rare chest weapons? 4x faster of 0.00001% is completely insignificant. its the same reason why we don't see "swarms" of people doing dungeon SC for chest items. (Swarm is relative....still tiny compared to all the pugs out there desperate for some sort of gimmick help to complete NM missions)

The only reason ToA is the only area in the game that actually still has people is because its the only area with an SC that offers more reward than solo farm and/or PvP Z questing. Nerf the SC without compensating normal play just shift everyone to another type of farm...there were already ridiculous amount of evidence of that. I still remember before Ursan/Perma were available there was a period where UW/FoW and Urgoz/Deep were all empty, with everyone doing UW/Fow solo/duo farm. Then of course there's the DoA episode that obviously show that people will not ever do anything with a balanced team build unless it is the most efficient choice.

Martin Alvito · Nov 15, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

The only reason ToA is the only area in the game that actually still has people is because its the only area with an SC that offers more reward than solo farm and/or PvP Z questing.

This is completely untrue. People SC from ToA because they're bad. Either they don't know about other superior alternatives, or they're too bad at the game to pull them off.

You just don't see PuGs forming in those areas because PuGs will fail consistently. People form those groups the same way decent HA teams form - via guild rosters and friends lists. Just like with those teams, PuGs get taken only out of sheer desperation to play.

UnChosen · Nov 15, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

This is completely untrue. People SC from ToA because they're bad. Either they don't know about other superior alternatives, or they're too bad at the game to pull them off.

You just don't see PuGs forming in those areas because PuGs will fail consistently. People form those groups the same way decent HA teams form - via guild rosters and friends lists. Just like with those teams, PuGs get taken only out of sheer desperation to play.

Its about accessibility....to go with a guild to something = waiting for 8 free players, discussing builds, and of course the guild actually has to be one of the very few good ones. Even if you do have a good guild with good players you still need to have a common time, whereas PuG SC you can do it 24/7 constantly non-stop. There are also plenty of "guilds" that really just copy what the pugs do. Finding a guild that truly do something original AND is constantly active is probably as rare as getting a rare weapon out of the UWSC end chest :P. At the end even with the "superior alternative" that "good" people do, UWSC might still ends up coming ahead because in the hours that a guild doesn't have enough people, SC pugs are still farming away.

And if there's a "superior alternative" that are done by guilds, what's wrong with UWSC then? Because that implies that UWSC is an inferior alternative only done by pugs for less reward = exactly as it should be = no problem. And I doubt that "superior alternative" is anything remotely close to balanced, its probably another gimmick that will one day find its way out into pug groups and then the "good people's build" will end up being "OP pug build" again.

DreamWind · Nov 15, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

P.S.: if Dreamwind replies to my quote, then this thread will start going down :P

I doubt it. We are generally on topic. The other thread was unjustly locked.

The Blood Countess · Nov 15, 2009, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Its about accessibility....to go with a guild to something = waiting for 8 free players, discussing builds, and of course the guild actually has to be one of the very few good ones. Even if you do have a good guild with good players you still need to have a common time, whereas PuG SC you can do it 24/7 constantly non-stop. There are also plenty of "guilds" that really just copy what the pugs do. Finding a guild that truly do something original AND is constantly active is probably as rare as getting a rare weapon out of the UWSC end chest :P. At the end even with the "superior alternative" that "good" people do, UWSC might still ends up coming ahead because in the hours that a guild doesn't have enough people, SC pugs are still farming away.

And if there's a "superior alternative" that are done by guilds, what's wrong with UWSC then? Because that implies that UWSC is an inferior alternative only done by pugs for less reward = exactly as it should be = no problem. And I doubt that "superior alternative" is anything remotely close to balanced, its probably another gimmick that will one day find its way out into pug groups and then the "good people's build" will end up being "OP pug build" again.

You must not have a very good guild if its easier to form a pug than a guild group. find a guild that people actually like to play together and you dont have a problem. And if you like each other you wont care what the other persons build is. My guild for one does not make guildies ping builds (that would be bullshit, we all know the other person isn't a bad player). it doesn't take us long to set up, and we play in full guild groups a lot. Its not a big guild its just a guild of like minded people, if we have 8 people logged on chances are we are all playing in the same group.

Martin Alvito · Nov 15, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Its about accessibility....to go with a guild to something = waiting for 8 free players, discussing builds, and of course the guild actually has to be one of the very few good ones. Even if you do have a good guild with good players you still need to have a common time, whereas PuG SC you can do it 24/7 constantly non-stop.

Another Grind Wars player. This game was marketed as skill > time. The old-timers that bought this game don't want to 24/7; we want ANet to maintain the game properly so that you will go to another game where 24/7 play gets rewarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

And if there's a "superior alternative" that are done by guilds, what's wrong with UWSC then? Because that implies that UWSC is an inferior alternative only done by pugs for less reward = exactly as it should be = no problem.

It makes ectos. Lots of them. That screws up high end markets. You don't want lots of people farming UW all the time. You want them farming elsewhere, and you want them farming gold or items/consumables that people actually use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

And I doubt that "superior alternative" is anything remotely close to balanced, its probably another gimmick that will one day find its way out into pug groups and then the "good people's build" will end up being "OP pug build" again.

Every single one of them uses SF. That should tell you how imba SF is. The problem that is SF is not limited to UWSC.

UnChosen · Nov 16, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Blood Countess

You must not have a very good guild if its easier to form a pug than a guild group. find a guild that people actually like to play together and you dont have a problem. And if you like each other you wont care what the other persons build is. My guild for one does not make guildies ping builds (that would be bullshit, we all know the other person isn't a bad player). it doesn't take us long to set up, and we play in full guild groups a lot. Its not a big guild its just a guild of like minded people, if we have 8 people logged on chances are we are all playing in the same group.

Its not that guild groups are harder to form, its that guild groups are availible less often. My guild is actually pretty good (IMO) in that I can get at least 2 hour of end game area play time each day. Most people who pugs however, usually do it because their guildies ain't on for long enough (when they go on their guildies leave), or on at different time/time zone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Another Grind Wars player. This game was marketed as skill > time. The old-timers that bought this game don't want to 24/7; we want ANet to maintain the game properly so that you will go to another game where 24/7 play gets rewarded.

It makes ectos. Lots of them. That screws up high end markets. You don't want lots of people farming UW all the time. You want them farming elsewhere, and you want them farming gold or items/consumables that people actually use.

Every single one of them uses SF. That should tell you how imba SF is. The problem that is SF is not limited to UWSC.

LOL. You do know that UWSC is essentially the most anti-grind build ever? By the way when I said 24/7, I mean 24/7 accessibility, NOT 24/7 grinding. If you want grind, "balanced" requires the MOST grind of them all, because its a build that purposely cripple itself by not taking advantage of the AI flaws fully (blame ANET for its AI design), and requires the most searching for varied profession. Nerfing UWSC increases grind more than anything.

Every single player uses SF? Didn't you say that guilds uses "superior alternatives"? So what is it?

Martin Alvito · Nov 16, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

LOL. You do know that UWSC is essentially the most anti-grind build ever?

No, there's plenty of more efficient SF alternatives out there. If all you want to do is clear the UW, sure, it's more efficient than prior alternatives. But I left the early UWSC groups specifically because I could beat the pants off of the returns even once we finally got the run down to a single cons set by Bleys' use of an SF in Chamber. (All the soloists were OF at that time.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

If you want grind, "balanced" requires the MOST grind of them all, because its a build that purposely cripple itself by not taking advantage of the AI flaws fully (blame ANET for its AI design), and requires the most searching for varied profession. Nerfing UWSC increases grind more than anything.

Again, this depends on what you're trying to do. Making ectos easy to get decreases grind for failbots and increases it for people that play efficiently. We don't want the masses easily getting their hands on things that are supposed to be hard to get. Wasn't that the whole reasoning behind nerfing Urgoz HM a couple of years ago? The exploit was well known for farming keys in NM prior to HM's introduction. The devs just didn't care until it because efficient to farm it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Every single player uses SF? Didn't you say that guilds uses "superior alternatives"? So what is it?

Every single superior alternative uses SF. Whether it's DoA or a dungeon run (running players or 8-man), anything that makes money faster uses SF. So did Vaettir farming during events before that got nerfed.

This should clue you in that SF is broken. The only issue that deserves debate is whether or not OF and 605 need to go as well. OF is just as potent as SF for some of the content SF is used to bypass, given that you eat some consumable speed buffs. 605 beats just about everything SF beats and some things it doesn't, but isn't as quick.

Tastyy · Nov 16, 2009, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Every single superior alternative uses SF. Whether it's DoA or a dungeon run (running players or 8-man), anything that makes money faster uses SF. So did Vaettir farming during events before that got nerfed.

Who uses SF to grind in UW or Dungeons anymore?

I am using SoS-build or Discordway. Sometimes I dust off my 55. SoS gets me tons of money from feather farming. Discordway is excelent way to pick-lock and tome farm. 55 is still in use with SS necros. SF doesn't get me anything. I guess it could be used for running.

Your argument is invalid

Abedeus · Nov 16, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

I am using SoS-build or Discordway. Sometimes I dust off my 55. SoS gets me tons of money from feather farming. Discordway is excelent way to pick-lock and tome farm. 55 is still in use with SS necros. SF doesn't get me anything. I guess it could be used for running.

Your argument is invalid

Bolded the problem. YOU ARE using those builds.

SF is still a compressed anti-physical, anti-spell, anti-interrupt, anti-condition skill that can't be Shattered, Drained, Stripped, Rended or Interrupted by anything but few signets.

Tastyy · Nov 16, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Bolded the problem. YOU ARE using those builds.

SF is still a compressed anti-physical, anti-spell, anti-interrupt, anti-condition skill that can't be Shattered, Drained, Stripped, Rended or Interrupted by anything but few signets.

Right, and so this is the part where you give me a list of areas that are good for money making when your a permaSF, beside of course FoW/UW.

Abedeus · Nov 16, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

Right, and so this is the part where you give me a list of areas that are good for money making when your a permaSF, beside of course FoW/UW.

See, this is also one of the problems - overfarming of green items, dungeon drops and other rare drop locations thanks to all sorts of invinci builds made it almost impossible to make a decent buck outside of UW.

You can still tank in DoA, try getting Elemental Swords with the Raptors or various mobs in Desolation...

Still, why the bloody hell do I have to give any list to you? It's a damn overpowered build that can tank ANYTHING that doesn't have PBAoE or non-Spell skills.

This is the part where you name me a game that allows for a skill superior to anything else in defense, offense or utility to exist for over a year.

edit: An online-only game, to be exact.

AKB48 · Nov 16, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

It's funny how many people gets all worked up over one assassin elite. If you don't like SF, don't run it, but also don't btch to these who do, we never said "DO use SF" to you, did we? And if you can't find a team to play with using your "good-old-fair" builds, too bad, try to convince these of us who do use SF to use balanced instead of btching at us like a dying mad dog, it will work better.

Abedeus · Nov 16, 2009, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

It's funny how many people gets all worked up over one assassin elite. If you don't like SF, don't run it, but also don't btch to these who do, we never said "DO use SF" to you, did we? And if you can't find a team to play with using your "good-old-fair" builds, too bad, try to convince these of us who do use SF to use balanced instead of btching at us like a dying mad dog, it will work better.

You are an idiot for not reading the last two pages or so.

Tastyy · Nov 16, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

See, this is also one of the problems - overfarming of green items, dungeon drops and other rare drop locations thanks to all sorts of invinci builds made it almost impossible to make a decent buck outside of UW.

You sure are a whiny lad.
Green farming is not that profitable, most green weapons go for 1-5k. It has nothing to do with "overfarming" because you can't overfarm bosses. The drop late is pretty low, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You can still tank in DoA, try getting Elemental Swords with the Raptors or various mobs in Desolation...

You'll be able to tank, but not hold aggro long enough. Not to talk about that you won't be doing DOA if you don't have a guild which does. Not many guilds do DOA often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Still, why the bloody hell do I have to give any list to you? It's a damn overpowered build that can tank ANYTHING that doesn't have PBAoE or non-Spell skills.

As I said, you don't use SF to tank. Mist Form, Kenetic armor, various Earth armor-skills tank as well.

How did SF effect your gameplay? And how did SF effect the market, other than keeping it mid-low?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

This is the part where you name me a game that allows for a skill superior to anything else in defense, offense or utility to exist for over a year.

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