Curse

Bryant Again · Oct 29, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

That's all well and good, but it's meaningless. What you personally want the game to be has no bearing on what is good for the game.

You say running is bad. Fine. That's your opinion.

You say dungeon running is bad. Fine. That's your opinion.

You want rare items to stay rare and expensive. Fine. That's your opinion.

That doesn't make anything you say more right or more wrong.

Likewise, all of this is your opinion.

I consider running to be bad since it undermines pretty much the entire game. The only reason it exists is due to dismay. While it might exist for lower-level instances in WoW, Blizzard has at least made the effort to keep the gameplay intact for the current instances.

I do not have problems with people wanting to play through the game "fast", but the integrity and challenge shouldn't suffer for that. For quite awhile now I've been advocating for a much more toned-down normal mode, allowing players of less experience to play through and enjoy the dungeon instead of getting their face stomped in at every effort.

The "rare item" debacle is a bit two-fold: one may argue that because all items are essentially based on appearance that everyone should have access to them. But on the other hand another may state that because the items have nothing else going for them, and because they are simply based on appearance, that rarity should be the only thing going for them.

Dusk_ · Oct 29, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Have to take exception to this statement. The nice thing about people farming gold is that gold is functionally non-transferable for high end trading. Gold farming was hard on the new player, to be sure. "Necessities" like runes and materials get expensive when gold is plentiful. ANet doesn't like this model, because it increases the likelihood that a new player will get frustrated and quit before buying all of the expansions and bringing in friends.

When people farm ectos and armbraces, we get inflation in rare item markets. This happens because this farming effectively increases the amount of wealth players can move back and forth. The supply of those items is fixed or nearly fixed, so we see price increases.

Sure, the prices on the UW/FoW/EotN end chest skins that got farmed to death dropped as a result of SF. But the price of things that don't drop from those chests (eg: Crystallines) went up despite the fact that the game was raining zkeys (and therefore Crystalline drop chances) for over a year. Prices on fixed-supply items went into the stratosphere.

Any time trade markers are being created faster than they are being destroyed, you're going to have issues. Increasing the rate at which they are created only exacerbates those existing problems. All you do by pushing farmers out of gold and into ectos is change who is impacted by the externalities farmers create.

Well, yes, but the effect is still largely limited to the high-end market, which has no real bearing on "playing the game". When the low-end market is effected, that's when it's a major problem for the general game economy, because you have serious issues with steep entrance into the game itself.

The worst part about SF is that common materials like feathers and dust have gone through the roof, but that can be solved through other means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Likewise, all of this is your opinion.

I consider running to be bad since it undermines pretty much the entire game. The only reason it exists is due to dismay. While it might exist for lower-level instances in WoW, Blizzard has at least made the effort to keep the gameplay intact for the current instances.

I do not have problems with people wanting to play through the game "fast", but the integrity and challenge shouldn't suffer for that. For quite awhile now I've been advocating for a much more toned-down normal mode, allowing players of less experience to play through and enjoy the dungeon instead of getting their face stomped in at every effort.

Yes, it is my opinion. But unlike your opinion, mine isn't about trying to force my preferences on other people.

People getting runs does not hamper your play-style. Nerfing runs does nothing to benefit the anti-runners, except fuel some elitist egos.

That's why I will always scoff at people spouting junk about "not playing the game properly". It's elitist, and that's all it is. If you can actually give some decent explanation on how other people getting runs somehow hurts your game play, then by all means, go ahead and do so. Otherwise, you're just a jerk sitting in the corner going "Stop having fun guys!".

Quote:

The "rare item" debacle is a bit two-fold: one may argue that because all items are essentially based on appearance that everyone should have access to them. But on the other hand another may state that because the items have nothing else going for them, and because they are simply based on appearance, that rarity should be the only thing going for them.

That still falls into the category of "forcing your personal preferences on everyone else". Rarity has nothing to do with personal opinion, and everything to do with economics and market environment.

If your only reason to nerf rare-items runs is because you want rare items to be rare, that's completely petty.

It's like the government saying that all fruits must be priced at 10x their current value because fruit farmers want to make more money. That's not how the market works.

Davros Uitar · Oct 29, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Way over powered, way over used, way over abused.

Bring a little balance back

.

You just have to look at the applictaions for guild membership. Most of them nowadays have sin as their main with 85% of their total character XP. That tells you why it needs changing right there.

PS - NO - that is not a good thing.

Golgotha · Oct 29, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I don't use it. So guess what? It doesn't bother me.

You play the way you want, I'll continue to do the same.

byteme! · Oct 29, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davros Uitar

Bring a little balance back

.

What balance "back"? It was never there to begin with. PuGs will migrate to the next best thing GUARANDAMNTEED! So don't kid yourself it ain't gonna happen.

I predicted all this SF crying months ago when CoP was all the rage. I can prove it if I can find that post again. Very lil discussion was had about SF at the time because it was overshadowed by CoP. I was right about all the SF crying then and I'm certain I'm gonna be right again. However this time around the next best thing isn't so obvious. It could be 600/Smite, Save Yourself, Ob Flesh, Manlyway (MoP + 100b) etc... The verdict is still out on this one but 1 thing will remain constant no matter what happens. The crying will commence long after SF is dealt with. The community will do a complete 180 and we'll be right back to square one again. History will repeat itself and this vision of a perfect game will be awash. The sooner some of you realize this the better because this crap is getting old. Given Anets track record I don't see a world of balance ever coming to pass.

Bryant Again · Oct 30, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Yes, it is my opinion. But unlike your opinion, mine isn't about trying to force my preferences on other people.

People getting runs does not hamper your play-style. Nerfing runs does nothing to benefit the anti-runners, except fuel some elitist egos.

That's why I will always scoff at people spouting junk about "not playing the game properly". It's elitist, and that's all it is. If you can actually give some decent explanation on how other people getting runs somehow hurts your game play, then by all means, go ahead and do so. Otherwise, you're just a jerk sitting in the corner going "Stop having fun guys!"..

The bolded part is the scary part. It's the "don't like it don't use it" argument that can be applied to anything someone else disagrees with. You can use it to defend implementing a Hello Kitty costume, you can use it to insert a God Mode button, you can use it to defend anything you can think of.

The reason I dislike running and farming in general is because I don't believe you should be able to beat an area designed for 8 with less or far less than that, and that what should optimal is a well-rounded, well thought out team build.

Of course, if you want your game to be easy, then that's why I advocate for either a much more toned down NM or an additional lower difficulty setting. Challenge and skill needs to be preserved.

Sadly, the game is way too far past all of that. That's why I'm upset.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

That still falls into the category of "forcing your personal preferences on everyone else". Rarity has nothing to do with personal opinion, and everything to do with economics and market environment.

If your only reason to nerf rare-items runs is because you want rare items to be rare, that's completely petty.

It's like the government saying that all fruits must be priced at 10x their current value because fruit farmers want to make more money. That's not how the market works.

But the problem with that metaphor is that the only things that become necessities in the GW world are achieved when you're able to get max gear. Everything else falls into wants, not needs.

And yes, this is about personal opinion. It all withers down to what you as a player would rather have: would you rather stumble upon an extremely rare skin - or would is it preferable to permit every skin with easy access?

Personally, I don't care about achieving specific or rare skins - the weapon I use 99% of the time is an FDS - but I would rather keep the rarity of items because they don't have anything else going for them.

Golgotha · Oct 31, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The bolded part is the scary part. It's the "don't like it don't use it" argument that can be applied to anything someone else disagrees with. You can use it to defend implementing a Hello Kitty costume, you can use it to insert a God Mode button, you can use it to defend anything you can think of.

The reason I dislike running and farming in general is because I don't believe you should be able to beat an area designed for 8 with less or far less than that, and that what should optimal is a well-rounded, well thought out team build.

Of course, if you want your game to be easy, then that's why I advocate for either a much more toned down NM or an additional lower difficulty setting. Challenge and skill needs to be preserved.

Sadly, the game is way too far past all of that. That's why I'm upset

YOU, and anyone else for that matter, can continue to use well-rounded groups builds all you want. This, or anything else, certainly aren't stopping you. If I thought no one should be able to play without wearing a pink fuzzy hat and leopard stripe slippers it doesn't mean it should be. Trying to apply your own standards to other things usually ends up as a poor decision and makes you look like a bitter elitist.

I think they should introduce a Purist Character mode for people like yourself. You then can be content with playing the same game you currently do without having to think about that pesky farmers and runners ruining your experience.. that you don't actually experience.

Bryant Again · Oct 31, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

YOU, and anyone else for that matter, can continue to use well-rounded groups builds all you want. This, or anything else, certainly aren't stopping you. If I thought no one should be able to play without wearing a pink fuzzy hat and leopard stripe slippers it doesn't mean it should be. Trying to apply your own standards to other things usually ends up as a poor decision and makes you look like a bitter elitist.

I'd rather be "elitist" than have the game without a focus.

Of course if all you want to do is stroll through the content to see the areas with little difficulty then that should be possible, but you shouldn't be as recognized for it as someone who actually puts in a lot of time and effort. You don't get an A for not studying and getting all the questions wrong.

Golgotha · Oct 31, 2009, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'd rather be "elitist" than have the game without a focus.

Of course if all you want to do is stroll through the content to see the areas with little difficulty then that should be possible, but you shouldn't be as recognized for it as someone who actually puts in a lot of time and effort. You don't get an A for not studying and getting all the questions wrong.

Ahh. I see what this is about. You want to feel special for the amount of time you've played GW and the knowledge you've attained. You're obviously far superior to other people because of how they choose to enjoy their game.

Recognized by what, and how? How are people recognized in GW? Titles? Half of those are grind based and I discredit because any person without a job and massive time on their hands can achieve. Fancy black-dyed armor? Waste of money and adds no benefit to your character. Should we bow and clap when you enter a town? I've played GW off and on since it's release and don't have anything that would constitute "recognition". Then again, it doesn't bother me in the slightest and doesn't alter my enjoyment.

Without focus? The focus is to have fun. Don't blame others because instead of finding things to enjoy in Guild Wars you'd much rather concern yourself with what other people doing -- that you can't see or even be sure they are, might I add -- than having an enjoyable time.

The game is what it is, not what it was. Neither you or I can change that, so just enjoy what you can of the game.

Bryant Again · Oct 31, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Ahh. I see what this is about. You want to feel special for the amount of time you've played GW and the knowledge you've attained. You're obviously far superior to other people because of how they choose to enjoy their game.

Why shouldn't players be recognized for being good at the game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Recognized by what, and how?

Recognized by having skill, and by anything that tells that player that the devs appreciated they put so much effort into their game.

What you have to do to earn those "rewards" is what matters, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Without focus? The focus is to have fun. Don't blame others because instead of finding things to enjoy in Guild Wars you'd much rather concern yourself with what other people doing -- that you can't see or even be sure they are, might I add -- than having an enjoyable time.

And "fun" is quite a subjective word.

Some people find fun in pressing space bar the whole time while they've typed in IDDQD, i.e. god mode. They have fun while putting little to no thought in the game.

Others find fun in knowing that they were challenged even using the game's best tools, and that mastering the game indeed takes quite a long time. They enjoy being presented difficult challenges, tough encounters, and having to spend time to develop what to bring.

The thing is that both spectrums can be pleased. You can have a game that's accessible while also being incredibly in-depth. ANet only has a game that's accessible with all the depth lowered/erased through running, "tanking and spanking", PvE skills, solo farming, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

The game is what it is, not what it was. Neither you or I can change that, so just enjoy what you can of the game.

That's why forums exist.

But no, I do agree that this game is way past it's shittiness to ever be amended.

germanturkey · Oct 31, 2009, 04:23 AM // 04:23

they just need more PBAoE on enemies. solves the problem right there.

Bryant Again · Oct 31, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by germanturkey

they just need more PBAoE on enemies. solves the problem right there.

A better AI would be the main helping hand here. SF and farming in general would be easily countered if the enemies weren't so stupid.

byteme! · Oct 31, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Why shouldn't players be recognized for being good at the game?

Because in PvE this doesn't exist. Too many people with GWAMM nowadays. So much so that trying to distinguish the good from the bad is impossible. So whatever superiority complex and recognition you are trying to achieve is futile. No one will notice and quite frankly no one cares. In a game with hundreds of thousands if not millions of players there will always be someone better then you at something. Elitism doesn't fly very well, just shows some people are more of a geek then others.

Only exception is PvP where you have a ladder and monthly tournaments. There is no such ladder in PvE. There is no way to know if you are "good" or "the best" at what you do. Case in point. I've never seen nor played with you in game Bryant. For all I know you could suck really bad but I wouldn't know. So where exactly is this recognition you seek? No one sees it and a few screen shots here and there isn't good enough.

Outside of your own lil circle of friends how many people recognize you as a good player? Have you achieved the recognition you seek? Do you think you or anyone else will ever achieve the same kind of recognition that [rawr] recieves in PvP in the PvE format?

MisterT69 · Oct 31, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Why shouldn't players be recognized for being good at the game?

Because it's an absolute joke for people to find a sense of accomplishment in something fictitious. As sexy as that l33t 15k armor is, 99% of all people in this world don't care. The same goes for getting GWAMM in GW; guess what, it's not getting you a promotion in real life.
As I hear from the "elitists" in this argument, is that it's like a QQing "oh I got my stuff this way, now these nubs are getting the stuff I got and then some? Oh this is some grade-A bullplop, nerf pl0x!"

If A-net nerfs SF (which seems likely) I frankly don't give a damn because there will be a new SC soon enough which... surprisingly... will end up being much faster than the older SC methods. (Remember how everyone thought ursan was such pr0 shit and it was sooo fast, then SF comes along and amg people were panting for breath in real life :P)

And here's the kicker: in 10 years time the people who got the mini kanaxais/gwamms/rareweps/armor/minis won't even care about their own accomplishments, so why care about something you won't remember in a few years?

reaper with no name · Oct 31, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

The existence of SF affects everyone whether you use it or not, because its very existence defeats the purpose of all other builds. Ever laughed at someone who put mending on their bar? Guess what? If you're not using SF, you're doing the exact same thing. There is essentially no point to most of the classes in the game as a result of SF, because it's so superior. If you don't use SF, you are gimping yourself. Do you really think that an optimal party should be 8 invincible assassins? Do you really think this sort of thing was meant to be in the game? Of course it wasn't, because it defeats the whole purpose of playing the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

YOU, and anyone else for that matter, can continue to use well-rounded groups builds all you want. This, or anything else, certainly aren't stopping you. If I thought no one should be able to play without wearing a pink fuzzy hat and leopard stripe slippers it doesn't mean it should be. Trying to apply your own standards to other things usually ends up as a poor decision and makes you look like a bitter elitist.

I think they should introduce a Purist Character mode for people like yourself. You then can be content with playing the same game you currently do without having to think about that pesky farmers and runners ruining your experience.. that you don't actually experience.

So, basically what you're saying is, god mode is ok.

Great. Then go to the suggestions forum and suggest that every class be allowed to maintain SF indefinitely. If it's ok for one class to be able to beat everything, it should be ok for everyone, right? It's not like it would affect your gameplay, correct?

Do that and I'll take you seriously. Until then, I am forced to assume you have ulterior motives for opposing a SF nerf, whether you realize it or not (I imagine most SF supporters don't realize it though, considering how many of them deny it's brokenness).

Also, while you're at it, go suggest that players be allowed to use assault rifles and RPGs. After all, I'm sure some players would enjoy it. Those who don't think it belongs in the game can simply choose not to use it, right? And don't forget the laser guns and orbital bombardment skills! And Bamf! We have to give that to the players! Also, we need to throw in some monster that looks like George Bush, because some players would enjoy beating him to death with a hammer!

Bryant Again · Oct 31, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

Because in PvE this doesn't exist. Too many people with GWAMM nowadays. So much so that trying to distinguish the good from the bad is impossible. So whatever superiority complex and recognition you are trying to achieve is futile. No one will notice and quite frankly no one cares. In a game with hundreds of thousands if not millions of players there will always be someone better then you at something. Elitism doesn't fly very well, just shows some people are more of a geek then others.

While I admit that that little sentence in my post wasn't too well in-tune with the rest of what I said, taking it out of context wasn't entirely the best move. I'm not looking to get recognized by others, I want my skill to matter, and I want to be recognized by the developers for doing so, just like when you receive an achievement in a random game where you beat the best of the best with what you got.

But in regards to this little portion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

Outside of your own lil circle of friends how many people recognize you as a good player? Have you achieved the recognition you seek? Do you think you or anyone else will ever achieve the same kind of recognition that [rawr] recieves in PvP in the PvE format?

I haven't achieved the recognition I seek because there's nothing left in the PvE portion that actually requires any effort.

Nearly all of PvE can be completed by slapping the best H/H builds on your bar or just going to PvXwiki. So many tools are available in the game that allow you to bypass skill and mistakes (ranging from large to minor). PvE is pretty much a joke, lacking depth and integrity. It's not a game that I want to spend a lot of my time on because the only things that these "rewards" require is a large amount of time, and that's not why I've played Guild Wars. If I want to be rewarded for how much time I put into something I'll play WoW, because even with tank-and-spank mindlessness it still takes far much more of my knowledge of the game than GW's PvE ever will.

And while yes, I can go to PvP to truly test my "mettle", that's not the point. Plenty of games are able to have difficult, challenging, and in-depth player vs. environment encounters. Guild Wars has failed in that respect.

I don't care what other players think about me or even if they know me (why else would I spend my outpost time in the Int. district?), I just want GW require a lot out of me. But sadly, it does not.

So, no. I won't ever receive the recognition for my skill from ANet because it doesn't exist. You are right. There is nothing in PvE that recognizes skill because it doesn't require any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterT69

If A-net nerfs SF (which seems likely) I frankly don't give a damn because there will be a new SC soon enough which... surprisingly... will end up being much faster than the older SC methods. (Remember how everyone thought ursan was such pr0 shit and it was sooo fast, then SF comes along and amg people were panting for breath in real life :P)

The only reason people are so adamant about SF is because it's the best of the best. Many here like to paint SF as the sole reason that PvE is screwed, but it's just one of many farming builds possible in GW. Nerfing it will achieve little.

Unfortunately, Anet isn't trying to fix the game on a broad scale, they're just hitting what's the most successful, attempting to "balance" farming (a concept entirely broken in itself).

joshuarodger · Oct 31, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The existence of SF affects everyone whether you use it or not, because its very existence defeats the purpose of all other builds. Ever laughed at someone who put mending on their bar? Guess what? If you're not using SF, you're doing the exact same thing. There is essentially no point to most of the classes in the game as a result of SF, because it's so superior. If you don't use SF, you are gimping yourself. Do you really think that an optimal party should be 8 invincible assassins? Do you really think this sort of thing was meant to be in the game? Of course it wasn't, because it defeats the whole purpose of playing the game.

what again is the "purpose of playing the game?" i thought that the playing of any game was for enjoyment. we all bought the game in order to have fun with it. if he enjoys running teams with 8 invincisins, who cares? if you don't like doing it, so what? enjoy the game you want to enjoy and let everyone else enjoy the game the way they want to.

i don't really understand this debate anymore. just because you don't like something, doesn't make it bad for others to enjoy it. i've argued both sides of this in the past, until i realized that not everybody likes the things i like. maybe you should take a minute to think about that.

Martin Alvito · Oct 31, 2009, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

what again is the "purpose of playing the game?" i thought that the playing of any game was for enjoyment. we all bought the game in order to have fun with it. if he enjoys running teams with 8 invincisins, who cares? if you don't like doing it, so what? enjoy the game you want to enjoy and let everyone else enjoy the game the way they want to.

i don't really understand this debate anymore. just because you don't like something, doesn't make it bad for others to enjoy it. i've argued both sides of this in the past, until i realized that not everybody likes the things i like. maybe you should take a minute to think about that.

That model worked fine for 1990s single-player RPGs. It isn't the 1990s any more. In an online game, your actions affect others. That's why people care what you do.

We have these arguments because ANet has tried to build a big tent that pleases everybody. It's what their business model demands; they need to sell copies to realize revenue. Unfortunately, the strategy of "try to please everyone all of the time" leads to a lot of inconsistencies. The largest of those inconsistencies is that squeaky wheels get grease.

Rather than set, espouse and follow a consistent set of policies that dictates nerfs, ANet has chosen to approach the problem in an ad hoc manner. If people complain loudly enough and long enough, something gets done. The chances of something happening increase if the complainers are the "right" people that ANet chooses to listen to more carefully.

There doesn't have to be rhyme, reason or logic for people to complain under this regime. Mechanics changes have distributional consequences; they don't affect all players in the same way. If you nerf SF, players that use it heavily get punished and players that don't effectively get rewarded. So you naturally get a polarized debate influenced by personal interests.

Because mechanics changes don't affect everyone equally, the "live and let live" argument won't wash. Your argument is functionally indistinguishable from a self-interested "GIMME MOAR ECTOZ" argument; the greedy player simply cloaks that desire in something like your argument that is more palatable to others.

Bunnny Keeper · Nov 01, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Really, I don't see the point of getting rid of SF now.. It'll just cause unwanted controversy and the damage on the economy has already been done.

No doubt that there is more people with chaos gloves these days. They still worked hard for it though and what's wrong with ecto pices at 5k?

Keep it the way it is Anet and please your customers going into GW2

war330 · Nov 01, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

SF being nerfed is sad but it wont change much imo

heres wut will happen:

1) SF Nerf
2) people go crazy/commit suicide/rage quit the game/ QQ
3) ecto and shard prices rise to ridiculous amount
4) someone finds a way to bypass the nerf with new build
5) people calm down
6) everyone goes back to over farming crap
7) ecto and shard prices will go back down

so yeah ggqq w/e