Curse

CagedinSanity · Oct 24, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

I never had a problem with Shadow Form allowing easy farming, even though I don't farm myself, I have no issues with people being able to do it - it actually benefits me in that most stuff becomes cheaper and more attainable, I think...

This.
I used to farm before I changed computers and discovered my graphics card hated Rata Sum.

But since It's difficult for me to make any money outside of Zaishen Key farming, I like the lower prices.

Hyper Cutter · Oct 24, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by killerbot3009

I belive that by nerfing SF, there will simply be a stupid inflation in Ectos/Shards prices.

This is what the whiners want, actually. A sort of "Now that I've exploited X to the fullest, nerf it so no one else can get what I got".

Pretty much the story of everything people push to be nerfed, really.

Squalus the Ipno · Oct 25, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

nerf sf.......one elite less. If anet want to nerf it just put sf as normal skil and no elite. Too many elite skill that really are not.

jeison · Oct 25, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

when is SF becoming nuked?
I don't use it and I don't see the issue with it, but maybe thats because I don't use it

Martin Alvito · Oct 25, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

This is what the whiners want, actually. A sort of "Now that I've exploited X to the fullest, nerf it so no one else can get what I got".

Pretty much the story of everything people push to be nerfed, really.

Perhaps you should try actually reading what other people write and evaluating the propositions? There's a laundry list of reasons to nerf SF that have nothing to do with greed and everything to do with proper game design and the long-term health of the game.

I'll concede that there are plenty of self-interested anti-SF posts on this board. But it looks as though you haven't noticed that there are two levels of discussion going on around you. One of those tiers is the mindless self-interested drivel operating at about the level of a television news program. The other tier is the discussion that actually makes propositions and defends them.

The good posts get lost in the noise if you're not looking for them, but they're out there.

Copenhagen Master · Oct 25, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

This game was good before SF and the prices of things were way higher also. I see two points to the SF issue. One it is great and speedy for areas if you just want that elite item etc. etc. The other side of it though it has destroyed values of certain items or brought them way down in value IMO. It also make it harder for the (regular) players to get a good balance group to do these certain areas, when all the SF are farming the areas. Either way GW will survive with or without SF, granted alot of people gonna get ticked off for the SF nerf , but they will get over it

Dusk_ · Oct 25, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copenhagen Master

This game was good before SF and the prices of things were way higher also. I see two points to the SF issue. One it is great and speedy for areas if you just want that elite item etc. etc. The other side of it though it has destroyed values of certain items or brought them way down in value IMO. It also make it harder for the (regular) players to get a good balance group to do these certain areas, when all the SF are farming the areas. Either way GW will survive with or without SF, granted alot of people gonna get ticked off for the SF nerf , but they will get over it

Lower prices for elite items is good, not bad, unless you're an elitist jerk. Wanting prices to be higher because of some trivial reasons like "prestige" is never a good reason.

Balanced groups will never be popular. Ever. Players naturally want to optimize, and the optimal build will never be PuGway. Nerfing SF will just lead to a slightly slower farming build that still excludes people, and nothing more.

Cuilan · Oct 25, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Making areas inaccessible is also elitist. Not saying builds should be necessarily random, but sound like you only want a select part of the player base to do SoO, UW, FoW, etc.

Bug John · Oct 25, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

long-term health of the game

gw high end pve has no repeatability, farming (cash or titles, or both) is all you've got left to do in pve

nerf sf and farmers will either move to another build or just leave the game, how can that be good for the "long term health of the game" ?

Skyy High · Oct 25, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

If the next farming build involves more than a party of sins, more people will at least get the opportunity to try it.

Cuilan · Oct 25, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

nerf sf and farmers will either move to another build or just leave the game, how can that be good for the "long term health of the game" ?

Others may come back to the game, new players may be inspired to do more, and normal players will be able to do "elite" areas. How's that a bad thing?

Alias_X · Oct 25, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

The thing about UWSC is that while it made pugs hard, it made it super easy for perma-sins to find groups. And who really likes pugs anyway? Without superior team builds, everyone always complains about how much pugs suck anyway.

Now the rich are going to be super rich, and the economy may very well get screwed.

Hell, I didn't even have a permasin.

Is Anet going to eliminate Frenchway for Kurzick faction farm? Why not? Was it ever intended that alliances would have 130mil faction and be completing runs for faction in 5 minutes? That has screwed the prices of Amber, but does anyone care?

Martin Alvito · Oct 25, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

nerf sf and farmers will either move to another build or just leave the game, how can that be good for the "long term health of the game" ?

1) It combats boredom and functionally increases the amount of content. People get tired of doing the same old thing over and over. The farming optima need to move around, so that people see new areas and have to solve new problems.

People would generally prefer that this be done by making farming stronger rather than weaker, but that leads to the next problem...

2) ...if you permit hyper-efficient farms that are more efficient than previously existing farms, all time previously invested in farming gets devalued. People that have already worked hard don't like that.

There's also a problem of game design:

3) It shouldn't be possible to stay alive without serious risk of death. God modes are bad. God mode is fine if it takes a great deal of skill to pull off and isn't 100% reliable. But being able to pass content over and over again with more or less 100% accuracy given sufficient skill is bad. That undesirably turns the game into Grind Wars, rewarding he who grinds the content the most times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Once SF is nerfed and the time to clear goes up Ecto prices will go sky high and many of us will be richer than we are now.

) Poor people will remain poor and have to work even harder to get anything valueable in the game from that point on.

So there's good and bad here. You fail at understanding how the trader distorts rare item markets. Once there are enough ectos in the system, it takes an extremely large amount of pressure on the system to push through the trader's resistance. With as many ectos as exist, you won't see a boom. Enough people will sell ectos when the price at the trader rises 500-1k to contain the boom.

That said, poor people and new players will be in extremely sorry shape. There are two arguments for not dumping tons of ectos into the system - it distorts the very high end markets in undesirable ways and new players will have it extremely rough when you turn the spigot off. The latter argument, however, is not sufficient excuse to leave SF as it stands. Man up, admit the mistake, fix SF, and find ways to help noobs such as increasing the rewards for the one-shot quests noobs do.

Dusk_ · Oct 25, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Others may come back to the game, new players may be inspired to do more, and normal players will be able to do "elite" areas. How's that a bad thing?

How will "normal players" be able to do elite areas when nerfing SF just makes farming runs take longer?

Honestly people, use your brains for a second. There are dozens of elite area farming builds, and the only reason why SF is used is because it's the best. That's it. SF is not some magic switch that turns speed farming on and off.

Nerfing SF does not make your Balancedway builds better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

If the next farming build involves more than a party of sins, more people will at least get the opportunity to try it.

No, it'll probably be a party of monks.

own age myname · Oct 25, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

No, it'll probably be a party of monks.

Or obby tank eles.

There are gimmicks after gimmicks behind SF. I'm pretty sure there is a Rit UWSC too.

Bug John · Oct 25, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Others may come back to the game, new players may be inspired to do more, and normal players will be able to do "elite" areas. How's that a bad thing?

a few people might come back, but lots may leave, this is bad for in game demographics...

by the way, if there really are people waiting for a sf nerf to come back to the game, I suggest they contact a psychiatrist immediately, they do have a serious problem

normal people won't be affected by this nerf at all, there will be new speed clear builds, or there will be nothing at all... just look at doa, can normal people complete it now that ursan got nerfed, or is it a dead outpost ?

I'm getting sick of seeing people using the same arguments again and again although 5 years of GW proved them wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

1) It combats boredom and functionally increases the amount of content. People get tired of doing the same old thing over and over. The farming optima need to move around, so that people see new areas and have to solve new problems.

People would generally prefer that this be done by making farming stronger rather than weaker, but that leads to the next problem...

2) ...if you permit hyper-efficient farms that are more efficient than previously existing farms, all time previously invested in farming gets devalued. People that have already worked hard don't like that.

There's also a problem of game design:

3) It shouldn't be possible to stay alive without serious risk of death. God modes are bad. God mode is fine if it takes a great deal of skill to pull off and isn't 100% reliable. But being able to pass content over and over again with more or less 100% accuracy given sufficient skill is bad. That undesirably turns the game into Grind Wars, rewarding he who grinds the content the most times.

boredom is natural in GW, once you've completed an elite area, opened the chest to get a q13 uninscribable water wand of deathbane and a diamond, you won't go there again

all you've got left to do is grinding money or titles, which is what sf was made for, this skill totally fits what GW has turned into

if you don't deeply rework the game design, nerfing sf is pointless

To Chicken To Die · Oct 26, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by gw_poster

hmm, high ecto and shard prices - as well as actually having to TRY at obtaining 'elite' trophies for HoM?!

I believe that was the original intent of such sought-after collectible materials and a full HoM...and I also believe that's exactly why SF should be nerfed

I agree about that but 1 thing. SF shouldn't even have had the issue to be nerfed. It shouldn't be buffed in the first place. Buffing the thing making SF perma was a dumb thing of Anet and ruined the hard and hard work of making elite dungeon Elite. I am no rocket scientist but wth is Anet thinking making such flaws

Bryant Again · Oct 26, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

boredom is natural in GW, once you've completed an elite area, opened the chest to get a q13 uninscribable water wand of deathbane and a diamond, you won't go there again

all you've got left to do is grinding money or titles, which is what sf was made for, this skill totally fits what GW has turned into

if you don't deeply rework the game design, nerfing sf is pointless

Dunno if I agree with your intentions, but I agree with the overall message. This is largely based on how static the PvE has remained. Monster mobs are often one-sided, have poor builds, and require little in the ways of tactics. ANet admits this with over-buffing the AI to absurd levels, and while I may be a bit sympathetic with such a move it's overall ineffective at increasing the difficulty and skill of players. Couple that with the PvE skills and other major buffs the PvE side has received and you're stuck with an incredibly shallow and ultimately unfullfilling experience.

There was massive potential for GW's PvE, but ANet dropped the ball and forgot it ever existed in the first place.

Cuilan · Oct 26, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

How will "normal players" be able to do elite areas when nerfing SF just makes farming runs take longer?

...because they would be able to do it and enjoy it at the same time.

Martin Alvito · Oct 26, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

if you don't deeply rework the game design, nerfing sf is pointless

Depends on where we're talking about. UWSC has quality substitutes (Obs Flesh and consumables). That isn't going to work so well for most EotN dungeon runs, where people use SF to run past most fights. Players will either get killed, have to spend a lot of time healing up in the rare safe spot, or have to carry too many survival skills to have room left on the bar to kill anything.

The stronger argument for your side is that nerfing SF is locking the barn door after the horse is gone. But the obvious counter to that is that the abuse never should have been permitted in the first place, and nothing is gained by permitting it to continue.