Curse

Esprit · Nov 19, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

It's seems most arguments for a nerf go back to wanting more money.

Shards used to sell for more... nerf SF and speed clears.
Elemental Swords used to sell for more... nerf SF.
Ectos used to sell for more... nerf SF and speed clears.
Voltaic Spears used to sell for more... nerf SF and speed clears.

It always boils down to greed.

Most people don't understand that speed clears and perma-Sins just sped up price drops and made it easier to spot. There is no cap on ectos or shards, there is a constant influx that has slowly but surely driven prices down. Ectos used to be 15k+ at the beginning of GW and they dropped a lot before speed clears and perma-sins, first noticeably dropping when 55's came into existence.

The reason that prices were so high in the beginning is because supply did not meet demand, but as soon as every player and his friend had a FoW set, supply started out-pacing demand, and prices dropped.

Just like prices will continue to drop... and nerfing SF and speed-clears will not change that, just slow it down again.

Deakon · Nov 19, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah. If you are so greedy that you want the shortcut to fortune, then yeah, you probably do need SF.

I guess if you consider 200k in storage "fortune" then... lol. I can honestly say that I've never done a "speed clear" with SF. Used it a little farming raptors before it was nerfed, then found an easier (and much faster) way using my ele. All in all, I think I've used an SF build for a grand total of less than 3 hours. I'm just saying that speed clears have had absolutely no effect on my enjoyment of playing.

If I had spent days upon days of grinding UW or FoW for ecto/obby and had a decent amount stockpiled in storage for the sole intent of selling it... well, I can understand why you'd be concerned that prices are low (compared to before) and that's the ONLY reason anyone can legitimately give for complaining about speed clears. This whole "but it's ruining the spirit of the game" is a load of crap and EVERYONE knows it. Greed is the only "legit" motive. Any game promotes the concept of stonger, faster, easier etc. i.e. More reward for more efficiency.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to want to kill speed clears to protect the value of your "stash." I'd be a little pissy too. But the fact of the matter is... Speed clears have no effect on gameplay or opportunity other than making some things more affordable to purchase in-game. I think it actually helps quite a bit. It allows some "shunned" classes to pay 20k (of hard earned gold) and actually get a display in their HoM. I mean, I could spend 3 hours with a well-balanced and organized team and MAYBE get 20k worth of drops to sell or I can pay to have someone run it for me. Those are my options (unless I want to risk wasting 2+ hours on a fail, in which case there's the PUG option) in which case, in-game money is still exchanging hands and still supporting the in-game economy. (Things are cheaper so they sell more.) Ele swords didn't lose popularity because they got cheaper... they lost popularity because cooler skins were introduced. So the whole "breaking the economy" argument is also a load of bunk. Money is still changing hands... it's just different hands now.

But since I'm not sitting on stacks of ecto or z-keys or whatever else, it doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game at all.

Honestly though... if I didn't think it would be mind-numbingly boring, I'd probably start doing it too. Who cares if every character created has obsid armor, chaos gloves, a voltaic spear and a tormented shield. It's all superficial and has no effect on the game. Why do some people have to be all "serious bidness" about PvE? It's PvE for Pete's sake! If it was truly balanced... you'd fail at 50% of everything you do.

Yawgmoth · Nov 20, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

A game's eonomy is well balanced if the rewards are proportional to the effort taken to obtain them. But SC's and other imba overfarm ruins that balance - the values are defined according to the most efficient and widely used rate of getting the rewards, so for example the EV from opening an overfarmed endchest is much lower. Now if someone wants to do the zone without using the imba shit he loses - his rewards aren't worth his effort - the player doesn't get properely rewarded for playing unless he starts using the imba shit himself (or goes powertrading instead of playing the game).

This is a universal rule and it applies to every ingame activity that has a reward, not just elite area farming.

And stop bringing the old absurd 'argument' of "don't like don't use". Some people are just hopeless in their desperate defending of their easy money source. Zero understanding of the deep and widespread effects that the existance of broken crap like god-mode has on many aspects of the game.

The source of all the problems is horrible skill balance, a complete failure that would be so easily fixed.

Oh, and I just have to respond to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

Trickle up economics 101. It worked in the roaring 80's/early 90's in the real world, it will work here too. (think of time spent playing as a tax and relate that back to the real world economics.) The "time tax" on sc'ers is lowered, so they earn more: a win. This drives fow item prices down making it more affordable: a win. The extra money earned by the sc'ers and money saved by people who now can buy FOW armor/toys cheaper is spent on other items in the economy from hero gear to rare weapons. So anyone who finds or has an item for sale can more easily find a buyer: a win. Anyone who can play the game, find an item to sell (fow or not), will win (think entrepreneurs). If you sit on your butt and do nothing but whine that everyone is making money except you... you lose (think welfare recipients). That is economics 101, trickle up, real world analogies. The only losers in a SF world (assuming that is what they are using) are the people who do not play the game, do not find items to sell, and just sit around whining. You do not have to be doing speed clearing to benefit. All boats will rise in a rising tide. All you have to do is stop expecting welfare checks to be sent in the mail cuz it isnt gonna happen.

Awkward way of thinking of many things there.

Time spent shouldn't be thought of as a 'tax' but as a cost of an investment (one of many costs to be considered), and all that matters is the revenue/costs ratio = how much profit you get for a given effort and time spent. Players can compare the ratios for various activities and the better the profits the more attractive the area becomes for the farming masses.
FoW is clearly the #1 choice right now but the rewards can't hold their value forever and it's obvious FoW will get heavily farmed until it's revenue/costs ratio gets down to the levels of other areas.

Now making an elite zone easier (for example by introducing a broken skill that absolutely owns everything there), and effectively reducing the time 'cost' CAN'T in any way be called a "win" situation. Such a thing will always allow some easy money to be made, for both the farmers and powertraders, since easily farmed (or given for free) money increases demand for various stuff. But you only see profits of some individuals where you need a more broad view. It's actually just a swing in the economy balance, after which everything will balance out. In the long term the FoW sc'ers won't be earning anywhere as much as they do now. I wouldn't be surprised to see for example Shards at ~1.2k again.

Next point is that driving prices down is also far from a "win" - from an economics point of view low prices are never a good or bad thing. Again some individuals will be happy about getting cheap fancy toys they couldn't afford before, but look at it from the it from a different point of view. I'll bring the most overused example of the Elemental Sword again - after they got overfarmed to infinity there were huge masses of happy buyers first, but then everyone ends with worthless trash. Now here we're talking about an "elite" zone with "elite" rewards, and those shouldn't be easily affordable for everyone. That's where a game economy differs from RL. A game's economy is all about making various stuff in the game well rewarding and maintaining a value over time. Cheap FoW armors for everyone would do more bad than good... same with ruining the values of even more weapons... should I really explain why elite rewards are good for a game?

Bottomline: A smart powertrader will always win. No matter if any heavy farming is around or not, the existance of sc's only makes it easier.

AKB48 · Nov 20, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah. If you are so greedy that you want the shortcut to fortune, then yeah, you probably do need SF.

I'm sure all of us who play GW can spare at least 23 hours of our 24 hour-day to make money in GW. I mean, why make UW 2-3hours for a balanced? THAT is what I call "cheap", make it 10-11 hours at the very least, 15 hours is optimal imo.

Golgotha · Nov 20, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

A game's eonomy is well balanced if the rewards are proportional to the effort taken to obtain them. But SC's and other imba overfarm ruins that balance - the values are defined according to the most efficient and widely used rate of getting the rewards, so for example the EV from opening an overfarmed endchest is much lower. Now if someone wants to do the zone without using the imba shit he loses - his rewards aren't worth his effort - the player doesn't get properely rewarded for playing unless he starts using the imba shit himself (or goes powertrading instead of playing the game).

This is a universal rule and it applies to every ingame activity that has a reward, not just elite area farming.

Shouldn't the reward of the area be the fun you had while accomplishing it? If not, then why do it at all? If all you're interested in is the reward, how is that different from nonsense grind at all?

Some people don't like Wal-Mart's policies and by following their morals they don't shop there. Now, other people have no such qualms and continue to shop there receiving much more value (reward) for their money (time). Yet you now feel compelled to shop there for no other reason than to keep up with the amount of awards others are receiving, which has no bearing on your shopping experience -- you would spend the same amount of money elsewhere whether they shopped at Wal-Mart or not. And your sudden urge to sell out your morals for greater value (reward) is somehow Wal-Mart, or the other shoppers' faults? No, it's your urge to keep up with the Jones's.

What you're suggesting is that because of this, we should just shut down Wal-Mart altogether.

This reminds me of a study once done. The majority of people interviewed had a choice between them making $60,000 a year while their peers made $30,000 a year or everyone they know making $90,000 a year, including themselves. Guess which they picked? The first option. People need to feel special and on another level of others to justify their existence and quiet their insecurities. GW is no different.

byteme! · Nov 20, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Are you kidding me? DoA is the best farm in the entire game. So many times better than fow/uw that it's ridiculous. The problem is that all the problems that pugs have in fow are a thousand times worse in doa. Pugs can't ball well, spike well, heal well, or follow instructions. There's a reason pugs don't do doa, and it's not because of lack of profits

What did I stutter? No I am not kidding you. DoA profitable? For who? You? Put that in general terms so everyone can relate and the end result is FoWSC/UWSC > DoASC. Even the time spent per dollar gained is better. DoA has shit drops outside of your gemsets to boot. I don't even need to debate this with you or anyone. The proof is in the pudding. The only thing good about DoA is your rewards are fixed. You know what you're going to get in the end chest.

Having said that though, nerfing SF or SC's will only make people move to the next best thing. Guess what the next best thing will be? That's right! Your very own backward. Land of the Torments. A place where many elitists believe if you aren't good enough you don't deserve to play in it. I say go ahead and screw with SC's, be nice to walk into someone else's backward and wreak havoc in it once again.

Life Bringing · Nov 20, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

What did I stutter? No I am not kidding you. DoA profitable? For who? You? Put that in general terms so everyone can relate and the end result is FoWSC/UWSC > DoASC. Even the time spent per dollar gained is better. DoA has shit drops outside of your gemsets to boot. I don't even need to debate this with you or anyone. The proof is in the pudding. The only thing good about DoA is your rewards are fixed. You know what you're going to get in the end chest.

Having said that though, nerfing SF or SC's will only make people move to the next best thing. Guess what the next best thing will be? That's right! Your very own backward. Land of the Torments. A place where many elitists believe if you aren't good enough you don't deserve to play in it. I say go ahead and screw with SC's, be nice to walk into someone else's backward and wreak havoc in it once again.

Lets assume you get 15 minute runs in UW, 20 minute runs in fow, and 60 minute runs in DoA.

UW: Assume 3 ectos+lockpick+a few random golds
FoW:Assume 4 shards+lockpick+a few random golds
DoA:Assume 8 titans, 6 Torment, 4 Stygians, 2 margonites+1-2 extra gem drops along the way.

At current prices, that comes out to ~18k for ectos, 3.6k for the lockpick, and 2k for merching your golds(doublescroll) for a total of 23.6k in 15 minutes, or ~85k an hour after time spent rezoning/merching/finding more players.

FoW:10k for the shards+3.6k for the lockpick+2k for the doublescrolls, for 15.6k an hour or about 40k with rezone times.

DoA:~45k for titans, ~15k for torments, ~16k for stygians, and about 6k for margonites, plus anywhere from 4-12k for the extra gem drops, which comes out to 86-94k/hour.

So be my guest and compare them. While DoA is not significantly better than UW, it is nearing triple the earnings of fow. Not to mention that armbraces sell for at least 30k more than individual gemsets. Pugs will not be able to do doa btw, it's been too long since they actually had to work

coil · Nov 20, 2009, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Invinci builds, SF included, destroyed it. It made those areas with swords too easy.

because the quickest form of raptor farming uses sf. find something else to qq over, ele swords look bad regardless.

Life Bringing · Nov 20, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

because the quickest form of raptor farming uses sf. find something else to qq over, ele swords look bad regardless.

Quickest raptor farming is actually a w/n tbh.

AtomicMew · Nov 20, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by optymind

With the demise of UW, FOW is now the next target to be hit. Shard prices are spiraling out of control downwards. Times are 13-15minutes to clear an elite area! Elite areas should take at least 30mins!

We need a new holiday questline that introduces Balthazar's Champions... Paragons (very fitting with fow) and has Anthem of Disruption. Other skill ideas: "You're all alone!" which would reinforce teamplay... Fear me/None shall pass for pure annoyance.

Or just simply made the Tower Mage take damage when hit.

QQQQQQQQQ

There is really, quite honestly, nothing more to it.

UnChosen · Nov 20, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

A game's eonomy is well balanced if the rewards are proportional to the effort taken to obtain them.

I totally agree with that. Balanced team completing UW or FoW (or any elite areas for that matter) in HM should receive an automatic 50k, because trying to complete an elite area without a good guild or knowing some good people = at least 50 times harder and takes far longer. Dungeons are far harder than normal missions but all I get is 2 onyx? NOT well balanced. DoA is far harder than UW but all people get are a few gems (or none at all other than the chest drops) where a few of them depreciated to even less than what ectos are worth? NOT balanced. As for The Deep and Urgoz...also harder than UW and the reward is....a chance for a green that can't even be sold nowadays....yeah very balanced. And no the 0.00000000001% chance of winning the lottery from some of those end chest does NOT count.

Maybe it isn't gimmicks rewarding too much and its balanced / pugs rewarding too little. Today I did the 2 PvE Z quest (elona reach & killing nulfastu) for all 10 of my characters, took less than an hour and I got 15k (1.5k for each character) from just the quest reward and a whole bunch of junk for another ~2k. Then I just repeated Jade Quarry for 3 hours and got another 2k in quest reward and enough factions for about 1.5k in amber....a bit less than 4 hours for 20k, not to mention a bunch of coins that can be traded. No grouping, no hassle, no difficulty.

I do a damn UW balanced with a pug, and I'll be lucky if the group managed to complete the area in less than 4 hours and not fail. And even then I better hope my luck is good enough that I get 3 ectos or more to slightly surpass what I get by doing super easy casual stuff. (assuming 5k selling price, but as we all know price changes.)

Now THIS is what I call unbalanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

DoA:~45k for titans, ~15k for torments, ~16k for stygians, and about 6k for margonites, plus anywhere from 4-12k for the extra gem drops, which comes out to 86-94k/hour.

Considering the difficulty...only exceeding UWSC by a tiny little bit is a joke. Then of course the reward curve for the entire game is a joke. See above.

bilinast · Nov 20, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

I totally agree with that. Balanced team completing UW or FoW (or any elite areas for that matter) in HM should receive an automatic 50k, because trying to complete an elite area without a good guild or knowing some good people = at least 50 times harder and takes far longer. Dungeons are far harder than normal missions but all I get is 2 onyx? NOT well balanced. DoA is far harder than UW but all people get are a few gems (or none at all other than the chest drops) where a few of them depreciated to even less than what ectos are worth? NOT balanced. As for The Deep and Urgoz...also harder than UW and the reward is....a chance for a green that can't even be sold nowadays....yeah very balanced. And no the 0.00000000001% chance of winning the lottery from some of those end chest does NOT count.

Maybe it isn't gimmicks rewarding too much and its balanced / pugs rewarding too little. Today I did the 2 PvE Z quest (elona reach & killing nulfastu) for all 10 of my characters, took less than an hour and I got 15k (1.5k for each character) from just the quest reward and a whole bunch of junk for another ~2k. Then I just repeated Jade Quarry for 3 hours and got another 2k in quest reward and enough factions for about 1.5k in amber....a bit less than 4 hours for 20k, not to mention a bunch of coins that can be traded. No grouping, no hassle, no difficulty.

I do a damn UW balanced with a pug, and I'll be lucky if the group managed to complete the area in less than 4 hours and not fail. And even then I better hope my luck is good enough that I get 4 ectos or more to slightly surpass what I get by doing super easy casual stuff. (assuming 5k selling price, but as we all know price changes.)

Now THIS is what I call unbalanced.

Then group with SF shouldnt be able to do uw/fow*sc again for another 3-4 hours?

4thVariety · Nov 20, 2009, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Maybe FoW is the next area to get a bossfight. Put Menzies on the map and have him curb-stomp all gimmick skills with the following:

Smoke Monstered:
All players using shadow form in shouting range are teleported into the Lake of Fire

Care Beared:
All players using a Norn form spells are made into Care Bears for 60 seconds. They earn the spells: Barf Sugar, Fart Rainbow and Wavey Wavey.

Indeed:
All players in shouting range under the influence of save yourselves get -120 armor for 5 seconds.

What he said:
The next three spells hitting Menzies also hit the casters and two people nearby. If the spells require triggers they are triggered as long as they triggered hitting Menzies.

After that we should have something similar to an equal ground since SF, Ursan 60s bumrushes, Imbagons and Cry are off the table.

You could still bring any gimmick to speed up the dungeon a bit, but for the bossfight you would need less gimmicky stuff. Bringing that other skills slows the group down to something slower than 15 minutes but faster than 2h.

dr love · Nov 20, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

fow boss would be wicked!

byteme! · Nov 20, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Lets assume you get 15 minute runs in UW, 20 minute runs in fow, and 60 minute runs in DoA.

UW: Assume 3 ectos+lockpick+a few random golds
FoW:Assume 4 shards+lockpick+a few random golds
DoA:Assume 8 titans, 6 Torment, 4 Stygians, 2 margonites+1-2 extra gem drops along the way.

At current prices, that comes out to ~18k for ectos, 3.6k for the lockpick, and 2k for merching your golds(doublescroll) for a total of 23.6k in 15 minutes, or ~85k an hour after time spent rezoning/merching/finding more players.

FoW:10k for the shards+3.6k for the lockpick+2k for the doublescrolls, for 15.6k an hour or about 40k with rezone times.

DoA:~45k for titans, ~15k for torments, ~16k for stygians, and about 6k for margonites, plus anywhere from 4-12k for the extra gem drops, which comes out to 86-94k/hour.

So be my guest and compare them. While DoA is not significantly better than UW, it is nearing triple the earnings of fow. Not to mention that armbraces sell for at least 30k more than individual gemsets. Pugs will not be able to do doa btw, it's been too long since they actually had to work

All it takes is 1 half decent drop in UW's end chest whether it be 10 runs or 100 runs and you can throw your numbers out the window.

qvtkc · Nov 20, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I've been playing GW for 2 1/2 years now. I've been enjoying it tremendously. I didn't realize how horrible things were until I joined this forum. All those speed-clears are ruining my fun because... um... It's affecting my... um... uh... It's just ruining the game and needs to be stopped! Nerf SF so I can go back to 2 hours of rezzing party members in UW so they can rage quit halfway thru. Yeah... That's the ticket.

Yes, it actually is. UW is an elite area. That means it's supposed to be hard. How can this be difficult to understand? Maybe your comprehension of common English is lacking.

UnChosen · Nov 20, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Yes, it actually is. UW is an elite area. That means it's supposed to be hard. How can this be difficult to understand? Maybe your comprehension of common English is lacking.

Its supposed to be hard WITH GOOD DROPS. 3 ectos in 4 hours for balanced pug is complete crap. And that's assuming the groups doesn't fail. When I have to have perfect pug players just to match what I get from Z quests and doesn't even come close to some of the easiest solo farm something is wrong. How can THIS be difficult to understand, this is an RPG, not a strategy game where no reward/insufficient reward is accepted by the players.

If you think people will do an area that isn't even part of the storyline just for fun and not for superior loot just look at DoA.

Arduin · Nov 21, 2009, 12:48 AM // 00:48

No, elite hasn't got anything to do with the quality of drops. That's something you and your fellow GW players invented when the enjoyment of the area gameplay-wise shifted to the farmability of said area.

It's a pity people don't play areas for fun anymore, but don't start complaining if an area's difficulty isn't on par with it's 'rewards'.

But maybe this is just a veterans player Prophecies nostalgia kicking in...

MithranArkanere · Nov 21, 2009, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latham

[...]

You honestly don't need a new quest line, the problem is SF.

I see most people saying that, excepting those that mostly use it to farm and make runs. Of course they won't find it a problem, they are making the profit.

I don't have any problem with anyone making profit, but I like to play for myself, not to pay a runner because no one else will do it any other way.

UnChosen · Nov 21, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

No, elite hasn't got anything to do with the quality of drops. That's something you and your fellow GW players invented when the enjoyment of the area gameplay-wise shifted to the farmability of said area.

It's a pity people don't play areas for fun anymore, but don't start complaining if an area's difficulty isn't on par with it's 'rewards'.

But maybe this is just a veterans player Prophecies nostalgia kicking in...

This is always a limit of how many times a person will do the same thing repeatedly for fun. If that's not the case right now I'll be playing Pong and Mario bros. 1 still.

How about we take away the guild ladder and the automate tournament and HA fame etc. See how many people would still play.