Curse

Lina Inverse · Nov 26, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I don't know how people can be "100% sure" that GW would have lost so many of it's sales if they charged, say, $5/mo. Now, it would be totally different if they charged more than that. I can think of a few games that are pay-to-play and only charge $5-10/mo and they have been around for years. Some of them still have decent sized player bases considering that 90% of them are made by a small group of people or even a single individual.

If ArenaNet had charged $5/mo right from the get-go I still would have played and I'm sure that a lot of others would as well. It's not the fact that GW is free that makes it fun, it's the game itself.

Either this or they could make a better in-game store where you can buy Items and Equipment that you can actually use. This seems to go over well in many no-subscription games.

QueenofDeath · Nov 26, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

It's not just the monthly fee it's the GM's and guides that most of these monthly fee games have. That's what gets rid of the riff raff like a Moriz ingame. If they just had GM's and guides without a monthly fee it would have worked and been better. Take volunteer players with good game standing and let them sort out the bad ones. That's how Everquest does it. I was a guide for them toward the end of my 5 year stand with them. I enjoyed it. Nothing more enjoyable than getting rid of griefers. I love how they lie too. I'm invisible watching them and then when I become visible they start telling me they weren't doing anything. lol

Lina Inverse · Nov 26, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Yeah, it's really too bad they didn't take that example to heart.

fowlero · Nov 26, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

For myself and plenty of other players i know in the game i wouldn't have even started playing GW if it had a subscription fee.

I had never even heard of MMO type games before i started playing, it just caught my eye in GAME as it was cheap and looked like it might hold my interest for a bit as i was bored at the time. Had it said sub fee i'd have chucked it back instantly as i hadnt even considered that someone'd pay to play a game.

rangereminem1984 · Nov 26, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

if gw 2 is p2p i would consider looking into playing it. im sure ill play it a little but not as much after playing aion and paying t o play im very happy with it and the updates and the actions ....

Copenhagen Master · Nov 26, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Just don't use there online store you might get banned HAHAHAh j/k ANET

DreamWind · Nov 26, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

..So now we get on to the only part of the argument that actually merits any debate: Could an MMO with the core principles of Guild Wars have competed with World of Warcraft?

The principles are a whole issue by themselves. Either way you make some good points. Specifically, the fact that GW doesn't have a monthly fee allows it to exist without actually competing with WoW.

That being said, I still think the only true answer to this thread is that we don't really know. Perhaps if GW had a lower fee and claimed to be the MMO with a difference (like they did at release) in that ripe 2005 market things could have worked? Maybe, maybe not. We are asking the question could the game have survived, not could it have competed with WoW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

...Guild Wars had nothing like that, and couldn't have had it without abonding it's core principles.

It arguably already has abandoned those principles just without the monthly fee. It is almost as if Anet has slowly determined that a move over to more general MMO principles with microtransactions and without the monthly fee is the best situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Who said anything about manage to overcome? Listen dude, there's been builds since way before one of the other games have come out. You can't tell me that you need to have more than 1 game to effectively put the 8 skills into the bar, because "the other builds are better". I have seen a Wammo (that's right, wammo!) with healing hands and mending (not even kidding) kill a Magebane Shot ranger from where he ran over to kill a Primal Rage warrior in RA.

I really don't think you get the point of a competitive game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Option 3: There you go. If ya don't want to pay more money, don't do it. If ya don't think you can compete with the others in PvP, don't do it. If you blame it on the fact that you have a handicap compared to the others, don't play PvP. The last one just goes to show that you made the choice to (meaning optional, no force) rather stop playing that part of the game than pay. You are still free to come back any time you like, you can still play PvE, you can still play PvP should you change your mind, and no one asks you for a dime. Get it? The only one who "feels compelled to pay" IS YOU!

And this is exactly the problem. Many people have chosen to do just that because of all the problems being brought up in this thread and elsewhere. You can say "just quit" and be done with it, but the majority of the PvP community has quit and that adds up to be a huge problem.

Sword Hammer Axe · Nov 26, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I really don't think you get the point of a competitive game.

And this is exactly the problem. Many people have chosen to do just that because of all the problems being brought up in this thread and elsewhere. You can say "just quit" and be done with it, but the majority of the PvP community has quit and that adds up to be a huge problem.

"I really don't think you get the point of a competitive game."
Don't give me that shit... you can't just go in and say "you just don't understand" seeing as I would clearly just throw the exact same sentence right back at ya. I know very well what competitive play means.

"And this is exactly the problem. Many people have chosen to do just that because of all the problems being brought up in this thread and elsewhere. You can say "just quit" and be done with it, but the majority of the PvP community has quit and that adds up to be a huge problem"
... are you even reading what I say? I say that you have options, dude OPTIONS! You have the liberty to improve your own skills, get more, play on without a care or quit. If you chose to quit you quit and that's the end. The point is that it was YOUR choice to quit, the same as it was YOUR choice to play on and YOUR choice to improve. I'm not just saying "just quit", I'm saying that A-NET DOES NOT FORCE ANYTHING ON YOU! What you so far have been saying is that A-net in some way forces their products on you, which you have no either proof or valid point to.

Let me repeat the very point I've been trying to get through: What you do is all up to you, and A-net can not be held responsible for that.

Daesu · Nov 27, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Supply and demand curves people. You charge more money, fewer people buy the product. This is an elastic, luxury good, with lots of substitutes.

The money A.net would make from charging a monthly fee would not have recooped what it lost from fewer overall sales.

You can armchair quarterback it all you want. But I'm pretty sure A.net has actual accountants to think of this stuff for them and know what they are doing more then we do.

Actually it is based on market segment. GW appeals to a poorer (or cheaper) crowd of gamers (not saying all of you guys are poor in RL) because if they were to charge $15/month they would be competing in the same space as WoW. I doubt they can defeat WoW revenue at this time, with or without subscription, even with "actual accountants thinking of this stuff for them."

If GW were to charge a subscription, I would expect a lot more work from them. Otherwise there are lots of other $15/month MMO subscriptions out there. This way, they charge less, give less, and people expect less from them.

Goddess Survivor · Nov 27, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

i consider this post dumb, if you want to pay to play, go to world of warcraft or Aion. Dont make a free game, a pay to play game, not alot of people can afford this, just because you can, does not mean everyone can. dont think about urself and be selfish like this.

Thanks,
Marc

The Drunkard · Nov 27, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goddess Survivor

i consider this post dumb, if you want to pay to play, go to world of warcraft or Aion. Dont make a free game, a pay to play game, not alot of people can afford this, just because you can, does not mean everyone can. dont think about urself and be selfish like this.

People can afford it, they don't want to.

Goddess Survivor · Nov 27, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

everyone? not really, i know ALOT of people who play this game, even tho they would rather play WoW...why? because of those 15 bucks a month...for u its not much, for someone else it is...so dont put words in someone elses mouth.

nomoretacos4u · Nov 27, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

I think people are being too quick to reject a monthly fee $15 is not a lot for a month as tther hobbies can cost way more than that. You can choose to not eat a nicer meal once a month and would probably have an easy $15, or not drink 3 cups of Starbucks. If your life seriously depended on the $15 a month I think you should have other things to worry about other playing a game.

I have tried other pay to play games and never stayed because I didn't enjoy the game play. I wouldn't mind paying a monthly fee for Guild Wars if it improved the quality of the game, and content kept coming out. The game has run its course for me, and without new content I don't have a real reason to play the game anymore. If a monthly fee could change that I enjoy Guild Wars enough to pay for it.

DreamWind · Nov 27, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Don't give me that shit... you can't just go in and say "you just don't understand" seeing as I would clearly just throw the exact same sentence right back at ya. I know very well what competitive play means.

Maybe you do, but your posts aren't showing it. Non level playing field = bad competitive play. Hell it is arguably bad PvE play when people have better options than you. Until you realize this, your argument that "Anet doesn't force anything on you" is pretty much irrelevent and off topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Let me repeat the very point I've been trying to get through: What you do is all up to you, and A-net can not be held responsible for that.

Let me repeat the very point I've been trying to get through: What many people have done is quit the game, and A-net can be held responsible for that. We know Anet has made questionable decisions. We know some of this is in part due to the marketing model. The question this thread is asking is would monthly fees solve things, and the answer is we don't know.

Riot Narita · Nov 27, 2009, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomoretacos4u

I think people are being too quick to reject a monthly fee $15 is not a lot for a month as tther hobbies can cost way more than that.

The monthly fee for one game may not be much, but GW isn't the only game I play. If I had to pay monthly for everything, it would quickly add up to something significant. That's not something I want, and I will vote with my wallet for free-to-play business models like GW. I refuse to support the monthly fees business model.

God_Hand · Nov 27, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

There is only one reason that GW still has an active playerbase after four and a half years:

No subscription fees.

/thread

distilledwill · Nov 27, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

The fact that makes guild wars stand out is that its such a good game and yet still F2P.

I've been playing aion since its release over the past couple of months and I can tell you, it holds none of the magic of GW. Combat is clunky and zergy, the player base is demanding and whiney (i know, so are most MMORPG player bases, but in GW I found an alliance/guild who were laid back and friendly), grind is epidemic. I'm considering migrating back to GW at the end of my 3 month subscription because even with its shiney new graphics and p2p content, Aion can't hold a candle to GW.

The nuances of combat; chiizu stepping, cancel casting, interupting, protting, hexing, enchantment covering, movement controlling, combined with the restrictive build system - having to cram all you can into 8 skills and use them effectively rather than just taking every skill your class can have and spamming them whenever you want feels more like you're playing the game than the Aion system.

If I had to pay for GW I think it would lose its shine somewhat, I can pick it up and play and not feel like I have to get my moneys worth. I've got the £50 or so I've paid over the years back one hundredfold through immersive and interesting gameplay, fast paced PvP, an intruiging storyline and a mostly friendly and accomodating player base.

Bob Slydell · Nov 27, 2009, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kador

GW isn't really a MMORPG. It's a multiplayer RPG with really nice
lobbies (outposts). Look at it that way and it bears no relation to MMORPGs that require monthly fees.

What it should have been (IMO) was a locally stored character game that can operate on LAN or on hosted Internet servers. Look up Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege, Dungeon Siege 2...etc..etc..they operate this way. Character on HDD, play single player, LAN or a hosted Internet server at your own leisure. Back up your characters. Immortality. Imagine if GW were like this.

And at OP... most of your points are great but when I played EverQuest II ($15/mo) the hacked account horror stories were as bad as they are in GW now and the GM's didn't do shit for people who suffered. One of my friends got his entire account wiped. What did SOE say? Screw you, rebuild it. Nice eh? SOE also did a lot of other bullshit things to it's playerbase in EQ2 like completely ignore the casual playerbase to the point many of them (like me) quit. They concentrated on the elitists and hardcore players instead, making it impossible for casual players with their "crappy gear" (that they didnt spend hours grinding for) to get into groups. Even laughed at us too.
Two years was enough of that shit for me for the treatment I received, the bugs that were not fixed, the causal players ignored..etc..So imagine what even 5 bucks a month would have done for us in GW? Probably nothing different than now, You'd still get hacked and lose all of your hard earned achievements. And one more thing. "More CM's that interact with players." Well..in my TWO long years at EQ2 this happened exactly twice, and you guessed it..still was paying 15 a month. They managed to have at least one GM that I talked with who ever knew what they were doing (out of probably 60 GM's) and honestly needed to be promoted to the CEO of SOE to fix that terrible company.

I went off topic but mostly, this post wasn't to flame OP, just to share my experiences and thoughts on why P2P is a steaming pile of crap that wouldn't make a difference anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

There is only one reason that GW still has an active playerbase after four and a half years:

No subscription fees.

/thread

While you might have part of that /thread correct, that is arguably NOT the only reason that you see people still running around in the game.

EDIT: I really enjoy playing a game everyday that has the most unhappy/questionable playerbase in the history of online games.

QueenofDeath · Nov 27, 2009, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

While you might have part of that /thread correct, that is arguably NOT the only reason that you see people still running around in the game.

But it is the majority reason and that's all that matters is what the majority thinks and does. If the majority goes the minority will soon have to follow as they would shut down the servers.

Sword Hammer Axe · Nov 27, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Maybe you do, but your posts aren't showing it. Non level playing field = bad competitive play. Hell it is arguably bad PvE play when people have better options than you. Until you realize this, your argument that "Anet doesn't force anything on you" is pretty much irrelevent and off topic.

Let me repeat the very point I've been trying to get through: What many people have done is quit the game, and A-net can be held responsible for that. We know Anet has made questionable decisions. We know some of this is in part due to the marketing model. The question this thread is asking is would monthly fees solve things, and the answer is we don't know.

Off topic huh? Wasn't the topic that You said that people pay monthly fees because of the extra campaigns comming out and then you feel compelled to buy it? How the hell is "Anet doesn't force anything on you" off topic there? The reason people have better options than you is that they payed money, meaning the gave something away to gain something and people who did not buy it chose the thing they had over the thing they could gain. So there you go: They have same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing options, one part just chose another.

There's one thing we can partly agree on though: We don't know whether fees would be the way to go or not, since we can not see alternative presents.

That is the topic of the THREAD overall. I commented on YOUR POST and not the thread. I think YOU are the one who have gone off from your own topic.

But RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it. You know I like having debates and such, but this shit is getting ridiculous. I'm not commenting on you more from now on, because clearly your sense of reality is malplaced. And btw don't give me that "you are just running away" shit because so far you have been using the same surreal points over and over again and I'm simply tired of that.