Curse

Page Down Warhammer · Jan 13, 2010, 01:20 PM // 13:20

I think it is more like this

Farming = Grinding = Cool skins and elite armor (Aka Gold)

Reputation = Grinding = a few good skills and, oh yeah, you have to do it for EVERY character you want those skills on.

Arduin · Jan 13, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Definition of grind according to the Wiki:

Quote:

...a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.

Also:

Quote:

Related terms include farming (in which the repetition is undertaken in order to obtain items, relating the activity to tending a farm field)....

It depends what you define as feature, but as far as being able to finish Guild Wars and it's Elite Areas, you only need to grind the Befriending te Kurz/Lux title for Factions, or get enough Sunspear Points for Elona.

Everything else is optional for completing the game, and thus could be called farming.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and definitions, and this doesn't imply I'm fine with how the 'endgame' of Guild Wars is set up.

a-kyle · Jan 15, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Page Down Warhammer

I think it is more like this

Farming = Grinding = Cool skins and elite armor (Aka Gold)

Reputation = Grinding = a few good skills and, oh yeah, you have to do it for EVERY character you want those skills on.

Reputation = Grinding = a few good skills and, oh yeah, you have to do it for EVERY character you want those skills on.

also equals farming so we re-write the equation as such:

Farming = Grinding = Cool skins and elite armor and, oh yeah, you have to do it for EVERY character you want those skills on.

galbat0rixx · Jan 16, 2010, 10:23 AM // 10:23

I have to disagree with the people saying players are stupid to grind farm to get good weapons or money, because a lot of people take great satisfaction in the end result of a rare sword or enough money to buy an asian minipet etc. It is very narrow minded to say that you don't have to farm/grind to complete the game etc because it's not just about completing the game, guild wars has become very much about achievements and riches. I know that I farmed for a crystalline sword because I wanted something special to take with me to PvP. This is why people farm.

I suppose farming CAN be grinding but it doesn't have to. UWSC with groups I wouldn't always consider grinding, and it always helps to have a team of friends of guildies because you can be slightly more relaxed about it. I know it's the same thing over and over again, but being longer it has slightly more variety than solo farms.

However, I would call raptor farming and UW solo (which was maybe why it was nerfed) farming which becomes grinding, because it is the same thing over and over again, usually very short and with no teamwork, which I think makes a lot of difference.

So to sum it up, IMO, solo farming is grinding but team farming is much less so. I think team farming would definitely be the way forward in terms of minimialising boredom, but with the population of GW in decline, there's always got to be a solo option, which currently, unfortunately, are much more tedious. Maybe something Anet could think about.

Reverend Dr · Jan 16, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Definition of grind according to the Wiki:

That definition is worthless. I find everything in PvE boring and repetitive. To me everything about PvE is grind; I don't just mean repeat farming, I mean doing a mission or quest for the first time is boring and repetitive.

But Rev how can doing something the first time be repetitive hurf durf?

Walkthrough for every quest:
1: Follow green arrow
2: Kill/interact/pickup object at green target
3: Repeat 1-2 as necessary
4: Receive reward

Walkthrough for every mission/dungeon:
1: Go from Point A to Point B
2: Kill groups in the way as necessary

My point is not to argue that the entirety of PvE is grind, its that the wiki's definition is absolute garbage and has no useful value.

DreamRunner · Jan 16, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

That definition is worthless.

They're a lot of people whom see wiki has a definition of fact and truth, when it is just a social force of information. It is sad to see how lazy some people are when researching information, but I doubt anyone has considered done any decent research in concerning this subject. Although the psychological and sociological implications of grinding and farming might be interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

My point is not to argue that the entirety of PvE is grind, its that the wiki's definition is absolute garbage and has no useful value.

Agreed.

Arduin · Jan 16, 2010, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Noticing how vague the boundaries between farming and grinding are from person to person, there's nothing wrong with a definition from wiki.

You might as well say that every definition proposed by the posters in this thread is garbage.

Skye Marin · Jan 16, 2010, 11:38 PM // 23:38

If there was a fast and easy way to earn money for everyone, then things would cost more.

You grind to get the things you want. If you don't think it's worth it, then you don't do it.

tmakinen · Jan 17, 2010, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I find everything in PvE boring and repetitive. To me everything about PvE is grind

These two statements are in perfect concordance with the wiki definition of 'grind'. I fail to see how you can call a definition worthless when you yourself agree with it

Is there a conceptual problem with terms that refer to subjective instead of objective qualities? You could as well claim that the definition of 'ugly' as 'aesthetically unpleasing' is worthless because something that in general is considered not-ugly is ugly to you.

Grind is a state of mind, not a property of any particular action.

(Datura) · Jan 17, 2010, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

This is where you failed as you believe too much of what "someone" told you. It wasn't 100% so. Just because someone says jump off a cliff would you do it?

) I got into groups just fine without even having Ursans. If you're a crowd follower then yeah you HAVE to do what OTHERS say not what the game requires or allows. If you're part of the speed clear group then yep you have to follow that crowd and build but there is nothing in the game requiring those builds. Players used them because they are lemmings instead of role playing gamers.

I mostly agree with this but you can be a year and a half into this game and not know that there is an option except the popular pug way. Being a lemming and not knowing any alternatives, are two different things.

Dallcingi · Jan 17, 2010, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Well farming is the only way to get money back if ur account got hacked and everything jacked.. but it's a plus since the bot probably leaves your monk as a SS 105 so you can just take that for a spin!

or you can grind pvp for zkeys and sell them

so both are fine for me!

Morphy · Jan 17, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Farming and grinding are basically two words for the same thing, although grinding is usually about levelling up.

I have a great dislike of both farming and grinding.

Reverend Dr · Jan 17, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

You might as well say that every definition proposed by the posters in this thread is garbage.

They are.

Grind itself is subjective. The only statements that can be made about ground are opinion based (e.g. Lineage and FFXI have too much grind in the game).

Grind can also be deceptive. People generally like to get more powerful, however that is done is going to involve repetition. Does it become grind? Depends on who you ask, but it doesn't stop the players desire. Same applies for money/items/armor/titles or just about anything else in any video game with a 'save' feature.

If a game is designed poorly, then players look only at the end rewards and call the routes to that grind. If the game is designed well then players enjoy the routes to the end rewards and call it 'content'. Which is Guild Wars? Depends on who you ask, after all the difference between grind and content is only determined by the individual.

Kaleban · Jan 18, 2010, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

They are.

Grind itself is subjective. The only statements that can be made about ground are opinion based (e.g. Lineage and FFXI have too much grind in the game).

Grind can also be deceptive. People generally like to get more powerful, however that is done is going to involve repetition. Does it become grind? Depends on who you ask, but it doesn't stop the players desire. Same applies for money/items/armor/titles or just about anything else in any video game with a 'save' feature.

If a game is designed poorly, then players look only at the end rewards and call the routes to that grind. If the game is designed well then players enjoy the routes to the end rewards and call it 'content'. Which is Guild Wars? Depends on who you ask, after all the difference between grind and content is only determined by the individual.

I'm going to respectfully disagree here. Grind is not subjective, calling it such is an easy or lazy way to say "to each his own."

While I am FOR individual playstyles, the design of MMOs in general caters to the well known system of grind, from EQ and SW:G, to space games like EVE Online and such.

The problem with grind is poor game design, and also the concept of MMOs that are "endless." By their very nature, ANY MMO will have to include grind of some sort, whether during character creation, improvement, or end game, because the idea is to get players to KEEP playing, especially in subscription based systems such as WoW.

Repetitive gameplay is not bad in itself, even against other human opponents, gameplay can become repetitive and still be enjoyable. Case in point would be a game like Counter-Strike or PvP Starcraft, where the tactics used by all sides are usually constrained by map choice and always seem to follow a certain path. This can even be seen in competitive chess, where famous players designed strategic sequences with specific moves that would constrain the opponent, even though the available combinations of moves is immense.

To use an example from my gaming past, take Quest for Glory I. You could beat the game fairly quickly, or skill up your character and max him out. Either way you got the same puzzle points and cutscenes, but if you took the longer route, it made for less grind in each subsequent game, if you were a perfectionist. However, because it was a roleplay/adventure game, it mainly focused on story and character, not combat, which is reversed for EVERY MMO in existence. You could slaughter Goblins all day in the Goblin Central Combat Training Zone, but it was completely unecessary to win.

I think what the issue with MMOs like GW boils down to is that grind and farming is built in from the ground up, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is to guarantee repeat business (either via subscriptions or purchasing of expansions) and to "hook" the consumer on the game by always offering a slightly prettier or more powerful carrot. A great example is Diablo 2 and the infamous "Meph Runs" in Hell difficulty that given enough repetition would see a player able to outfit multiple characters in high end gear.

In the end equation though, the simple fact is grind is required by the game to advance, such as repetition of areas for xp, something that Factions avoided quite beautifully with its increased quest rewards, while farming is something performed by the player for concrete rewards to enhance their character.

Now of course, you could say that leveling up and moving forward in the story are rewards in and of themselves, and you would be right, however it becomes grind when a player must repetitively complete areas or quests to achieve the necessary amount. A well designed game would require a character's progress through the campaign areas and leveling to coincide, such that areas MUST only be visited once, but may be re-played as a player sees fit, especially when it comes to such things as art design. When I played WoW (long time ago) I always liked hanging out in Nagrand because of the area design, it was quite enjoyable by itself, even after the Lich King and new Northrend areas.

The tl;dr version:

Grind /= Farming, and the use of Wiki as a factual or "official" reference is somewhat absurd, seeing as how the same types who edit Wikis are the same as the ones here who are vehemently arguing!

MasterSasori · Jan 18, 2010, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Why do GW PvEers like to farm but hate grind?

They like farming because they like to get stuff. They hate grind because they have to work for it.

Longstoryshort they want things other people don't have but don't want to work for it.

Kaleban · Jan 18, 2010, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Why do GW PvEers like to farm but hate grind?

They like farming because they like to get stuff. They hate grind because they have to work for it.

Longstoryshort they want things other people don't have but don't want to work for it.

You CAN'T be serious?!

Whether you're farming or grinding, you're accessing the game client and investing time.

And why are you targeting PvEers? I'm sure the PvP community probably has similar feeling about grind, such as only getting into HA matches with a r9 emote? And those who used gimmicks to grind up the title?

But your conclusions are patently ridiculous. ANY player has access to the same skills and gear, if they go after them. Farming takes effort, just like grind does, the difference is, farming has a more immediate reward that's often tangible, whereas grind is long term and sometimes has little or no beneficial effect, and is an artifact of the game design.

Longstoryshort, your last comment makes absolutely no sense. You spend the time farming for an item drop or ectos, then you ARE working for it. I think you need to perhaps read up on your definitions a bit before commenting in such threads.

glacialphoenix · Jan 18, 2010, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

They like farming because they like to get stuff. They hate grind because they have to work for it.

...ah - if you're farming, you're still investing time.

Ganks · Jan 18, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20

I honestly don't mind grinding. It's not really the grinding part that gets annoying, but the repetitive gameplay that revolves around the grinding. I've played Atlantica Online for example and I really enjoyed grinding on that game. It didn't bother me because the battle system was top notch and I really enjoyed it. I don't mind farming points for PvP titles either.
The only thing I hate about farming for gear and items is that good pubs have always been hard to find and what I consider to be "good guilds" are few and far between. That makes it difficult to truly enjoy what would otherwise be a lot of fun.

Reverend Dr · Jan 18, 2010, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Grind is not subjective

Grind is about enjoyment, or well the lack there of, in a repetitious activity that is needed for progress/reward/whatever. Are you really trying to tell me that whether or not one enjoys something is not subjective?

I know most of Guru has always voiced the idea of "you should play the game exactly like I do," but going this far is absolutely ridiculous.

Its not a lazy way of saying "to each his own," its the way of saying "I do not have access to the appropriate demographic studies, nor do I intend to conduct such a study, so I cannot appropriately comment on the overall opinions of potential players on this subject."

Game design is about player satisfaction, that is completely subjective. A good game both produces stronger satisfaction and produces satisfaction in a larger group. You won't really know this until you survey demographics, the survey being what identify individual's subjective experiences.