Curse

Tenebrae · Jan 05, 2010, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

There's a difference between nerfing all farming builds and nerfing a couple of overpowered ones that are able to clear multiple end game areas.

I think he was being sarcastic and or ironic ? .... if not ..... puf , god i hope so.

upier · Jan 05, 2010, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

To the: PvE monsters are stupidly OP aswell:

Our (Player) intelligence is supposed to make up for redicilous numbers PvE monsters have.

Either you have brawn, or you have brains. Concidering it's WAY to hard to give AI some decent brains, Anet gives em brawn.

What do we (as players) get? Both.

Take away the farm builds, and people will actually have to pay attention playing the game. Aatxes hitting for 400 dmg? Prot spirit whoever they run for. Monsters using 500 damage spells? Get a ranger who can interrupt stuff. (They DO need to fix some things, such as cast time and energy -No way PvE monsters should be uninterruptable-)
Too many monsters? Lure them in a choke and have your frontline block them in whilst the rest nukes, etc...

The game, elite areas and hard mode, are supposed to be hard. Heck, if it took 10 tries, lasting 2 hours each, to finally succesfully finish 1 UW run, then it would actually live up to it's name. (Same for every other area)

I gues I'm a competitive player, and that's why I really want a HARD and CHALLENGING end-game. And maybe that's also the reason why I've quit PvE so early, there simply isn't any challenge in it.
I would actually ENJOY playing PvE when I know a party whipe could be lurking around any corner, instead of: "Tank go in, aggro all" "Ok, everyone use your farm skill" "Lets go to next group"...

Welcome to 5 years ago.
You can't expect to play the SAME content for 1000s of hours, content that NEVER changes and expect for it to keep the same difficulty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

False. If you dont do selective balance then you have to balance ENTIRE game all at once. As you can see , they didnt rework a so obvious broken skill combo till now ( early this year , i guess update comes in feb ? ) so asking for non selective balance is pointless and useless.

Unless a massive rework of the game is done, we'll be screaming to rework X in a few months.

Xenex Xclame · Jan 05, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Welcome to 5 years ago.
You can't expect to play the SAME content for 1000s of hours, content that NEVER changes and expect for it to keep the same difficulty.

Thats why skill updates are so needed,when they update skills you have new stuff to play with but you also have new stuff to deal with.Having constant and regular skill updates gives the game replayablity just because the place you did before isnt the same as the last time you did it, and for some time after the new stuff are introduced that place is somewhat unpredictable and challenging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Unless a massive rework of the game is done, we'll be screaming to rework X in a few months.

Of course we will, Anet has the tendency to include stupid things in their update,but at least untill the problem becomes widespread we will have fun with what we get.

Are they seriously gonna tell us they never saw what might happen when they made SF (to mention one of many) the way it is, I mean common its not that complicated, its 3 skills you cant tell me they never thought anybody was not gonna do deadly paradox+SF...

Tenebrae · Jan 05, 2010, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Unless a massive rework of the game is done, we'll be screaming to rework X in a few months.

Like i told you before , not gonna happen. Now they are working on GW2 , its even less possible ( if it was sometime anyway ). So get your "voice" ready to scream but i can tell you , i wont .

MMSDome · Jan 05, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Yes. And if thousands leave because of it, they probably deserved it too. And I'm sure that will have no effect whatsoever on the sales of GW2. I'm sure aNet who make GW and make money from making GW think exactly the same way you do.

I'd go so far as to link to Wikipedia definitions of fanboy and elitist, but there's no need. Your attitude shows all that's needed to get an understanding of both.

Opinions...

how many people said the same thing when ursan was nerfed

mrvrod · Jan 05, 2010, 10:38 AM // 10:38

You can not kill anything the same lvl or higher solo with SF if you only have those 3 skills on your skillbar, you can not SOLO an elite area with those three and any other 5 skills on your skillbar, and yet people keep calling it God Mode.

Yes SF allows soloing of explorable areas. All of these areas already have solo farming builds that are just as effective. The only difference here is it's one build/one clase instead of having to switch the builds for each different area.

Yes SF allows 1 person to ignore some (not all) groups and run through levels of a dungeon taking the rest of the group with you. So you get to the final level/end chest quicker (for your 2 diamond drop) but unless you have a group that can take out the end mob/boss you will still fail. And again, many of these elite areas already have builds taylor made for making it much easier.

I have played this game for over 4 years, before PvX Wiki. I almost exclusively play a warrior. With the addition of reputation bound skills, you have unbelievable amounts of grind for every character you want to use those skills with, so people look for an easier way to do this.

You want to nerf any build that comes along and makes an area easier? Fine, go right ahead. But how about unlocking rep bound skills? GW was supposed to be the anti-grind mmo remember?

You want elite areas to be ultra hard, less than 60% success rate? Fine, but make the reward worth the effort then. Diamonds, Onyx Gemstones, common golds? That's why I sell my zkeys, let some other fool get a creme brule or a flask of firewater for their 5k!

And the longer this thread goes on, more and more people add their list of hated builds to the list. Nerf 100b?! Come on! Ok, let's nerf Dragon Slash while we're at it, being able to spam an elite skill every second for 10 seconds is just too damn powerful! No one seems to be able to draw a definative line as to where this madness should stop.

Remember too, with the esrb rating and the stylistic rather than realistic way killing is portrayed, Anet has gone after a wide age range here. Maybe there should be a God Mode for the kids who play. The inclusion of ANY build in this game does not force you to use it!

There are guilds advertising every day in almost every outpost that do UW, FoW, Urgoz and everything else under the sun. There are obviously many farming build haters in game as well, so the argument that these builds somehow preclude you from finding others to PuG with seems shaky at best. The only other reason to nerf is to protect the prices/quantity of rare items. If you're worried about how many people are running around with "your" BDS, "your" Obsidian armor, then you're playing this game for the wrong reasons.

There are entirely too many people here worring about how everyone else plays the game.

Turbo Ginsu · Jan 05, 2010, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

how many people said the same thing when ursan was nerfed

How many people do you see in DoA not getting a run now, compared to before the Ursan nerf?

Right.

upier · Jan 05, 2010, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Thats why skill updates are so needed,when they update skills you have new stuff to play with but you also have new stuff to deal with.Having constant and regular skill updates gives the game replayablity just because the place you did before isnt the same as the last time you did it, and for some time after the new stuff are introduced that place is somewhat unpredictable and challenging.

In theory I agree with you. I am very much in favour of a new skill balance.
The problem arries when we take into account the game we are playing. Pretty much the only reason why you'd replay the same content over and over and over again these days is to advance your titles. And these titles are mostly character based. Which means you'll be replaying the same content over and over and over again, just that your elite will once be WoH and the next time it will be UA. Whereas the monsters will not change.
It would be one thing if we'd be in a game where one can freely switch around guys so that once a skill balance arrives one would switch from the assassin to a mesmer and experience a completely new way to play the game. (That is IF they'd actually rework some other crap also so that all classes wouldn't pretty much be YMLD!, EVAS, FH! and AP.) That won't happen. Or, if they would rework the areas and create new mobs. That won't happen.

They'd need to go to the core, allow us to use our account instead of our characters and work on the persistent part of PvE.
Otherwise all they achieve is one or two days or "ooohh" and "ahhhh"'s and then we're back to "OMG!1! NERF!1!! NERRRRRRRFFFF!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Of course we will, Anet has the tendency to include stupid things in their update,but at least untill the problem becomes widespread we will have fun with what we get.

Are they seriously gonna tell us they never saw what might happen when they made SF (to mention one of many) the way it is, I mean common its not that complicated, its 3 skills you cant tell me they never thought anybody was not gonna do deadly paradox+SF...

I don't see why people still say this.
THEY PLANNED FOR SF TO BE MAINTAINABLE.
Check the dev updates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Like i told you before , not gonna happen. Now they are working on GW2 , its even less possible ( if it was sometime anyway ). So get your "voice" ready to scream but i can tell you , i wont .

Of course that won't happen.
And that's the problem. Because when you are doing these micro-balances all you are doing is changing the name of the problem.
So maybe it's time that we ask ourselves how bad of a game do we really have? What will trashing the crap that we have in the game really achieve?

Tenebrae · Jan 05, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see why people still say this.
THEY PLANNED FOR SF TO BE MAINTAINABLE.
Check the dev updates.

You sound like it was a part of a masterplan and no , it is not. They are not gods , they make mistakes and that was one of them. They couldnt know this was going to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's the problem. Because when you are doing these micro-balances all you are doing is changing the name of the problem.

No , you solve little problems that are part of a bigger one and most of the times in order of "size".

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So maybe it's time that we ask ourselves how bad of a game do we really have? What will trashing the crap that we have in the game really achieve?

The question is , is it better to talk about things that will never happen while you can still smell the sht or actually DO something about it ?.
Most of the times DOING something will CHANGE things for good , sometimes it wont ( making SF mantainable ).

upier · Jan 05, 2010, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You sound like it was a part of a masterplan and no , it is not. They are not gods , they make mistakes and that was one of them. They couldnt know this was going to happen.

The only thing that they didn't see was the speed.

EDIT:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena...e_Oct-Dec_2008

Quote:

After repeated adjustments to both the skill and the Underworld, Shadow Form continues to dominate PvE farming. All the adjustments we have made to this style of farming have aimed to slow players down but not eliminate it as a viable farming option. We recognize the fact that farming with Shadow Form-based builds can be really fun, so we have not resorted to breaking the ability to keep Shadow Form up permanently. However, we continue to be uncomfortable with the speed in which players are able to complete various popular farming runs. We have decided to try one last time to scale down the effectiveness of Shadow Form while still allowing it to be maintained permanently.

By reducing the recharge and duration time, we force players to cast Shadow Form more frequently, which in turn increases the Energy pressure associated with maintaining the skill. For Assassins with modest Energy pools, this results in more conservative Energy management through weapon swaps and lowers damage per second as damaging skills have to be cast less frequently in favor of saving up enough Energy to cast Shadow Form again. For non-Assassin primary characters (such as the Elementalist with an Energy pool large enough to worry less about Energy pressure) this change makes maintaining Shadow Form a much more delicate balance. There is little margin of error because it requires a full spectrum of skills, consumables, and weapon swaps to simultaneously increase the duration and reduce the recharge of Shadow Form enough to maintain it permanently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

No , you solve little problems that are part of a bigger one and most of the times in order of "size".

We had the Ursan issue.
They trashed Ursan.
We had the CoP issue.
They trashed CoP.
And now we have the SF issue.
They will trash SF.

And because we are stuck on micro balance we never get to the core issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

The question is , is it better to talk about things that will never happen while you can still smell the sht or actually DO something about it ?.
Most of the times DOING something will CHANGE things for good , sometimes it wont ( making SF mantainable ).

The problem is that the things people want to change aren't the source of the smell.

Xenex Xclame · Jan 05, 2010, 12:22 PM // 12:22

@mrvrod, if you were replying to me, I didn t say you could solo stuff with just those 3 skills, i was saying you can keep SF up all the time with just those three skills and which is something in my opinion that they should have been able to see coming.By the way, yes you can solo stuff with just those three skills, just equip yourselfs with a scythe or any weapon for that matter, it will take ages, but you will solo them without them hitting you even once.

Well the reason why skill update is so important, especially now at this stages of the games life, is because the chance are very slim that they will give us new content, so we wont get replayability in that way, at least if they change skills regularly we can have some kinda of fake-replayability.

I didnt know about the dev note your talking about,there is no reason for me not to believe you so I will.In that case they were even more stupid then I though.

Stop The Storm · Jan 05, 2010, 12:24 PM // 12:24

people who think that anet "didnt know" that sf would be maintainable are crazy. they made the game, they made the skills, they made the areas, they knew what would be farmed, and how it would be farmed before the content was even released.

raptor cave, you think they didnt put that there intentionally to entice more people to buy EOTN due to word of mouth that raptor farming is FTW?

you think that they didnt know that SF would be maintainable with 2 skills?

just LOL.

miriforst · Jan 05, 2010, 01:51 PM // 13:51

the problem with increasing the use of tactics is that they have to boost it offensive and not defensive or the reason why they have kept strength better than tactics is going to show...

since it is non primary attribute giving access to blocking, armor and immunity to knockdown on all those monks with only word of healing and the rest defensive warrior stances and other characters abusing the defense from this non primary attribute

(ranger interrupter, hard times even with magebane)

QueenofDeath · Jan 05, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

There are entirely too many people here worring about how everyone else plays the game.

Including YOU!

Thing is some of us are going to WIN as SF and 600 smite are getting NERFed! HaHah

Grj · Jan 05, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

people who think that anet "didnt know" that sf would be maintainable are crazy. they made the game, they made the skills, they made the areas, they knew what would be farmed, and how it would be farmed before the content was even released.

raptor cave, you think they didnt put that there intentionally to entice more people to buy EOTN due to word of mouth that raptor farming is FTW?

you think that they didnt know that SF would be maintainable with 2 skills?

just LOL.

This, also look at the following:

Deadly Paradox - Nightfall needed

Glyph of Swiftness - EOTN needed

Shadow Form - Factions needed

ToA - Original guildwars, that if you want to be in the most active area for FoW/UW groups

Convient that the most broken/overpowered build requires nearly, if not all games and expansions...

Its hillarious how when this game was younger some farms where nerfed within days, which where nowhere near as efficient or broken as what we have today.

mrvrod · Jan 06, 2010, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

This, also look at the following:

Deadly Paradox - Nightfall needed

Glyph of Swiftness - EOTN needed

Shadow Form - Factions needed

ToA - Original guildwars, that if you want to be in the most active area for FoW/UW groups

Convient that the most broken/overpowered build requires nearly, if not all games and expansions...

Its hillarious how when this game was younger some farms where nerfed within days, which where nowhere near as efficient or broken as what we have today.

And now that they've gotten those sales, it's time to appease the whiners. Maybe I should just do a little research on the most popular builds of each profession and start a qq thread for each of them explaining why they need to be nerfed.

Xenex Xclame · Jan 06, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

And now that they've gotten those sales, it's time to appease the whiners. Maybe I should just do a little research on the most popular builds of each profession and start a qq thread for each of them explaining why they need to be nerfed.

Go for it, just dont be surprised when people start laughing at you because your saying Shock/Axe is overpowered.

Mcsnake85 · Jan 06, 2010, 11:25 AM // 11:25

I havent read all, but i just want say 1 thing :
Its the first time that i play a game with NERF/BUFFS of skills (IN PVE)...
What the sense?In this game you are force to cooperate or you cant do some areas/mission while, for example, in diablo II with your Sorceress you were able to do all, 1 fireball=50 mobs down...GW, 1 fireball= 1 Mobs laugh on you...what a cool game!!!!No sense all those things in PVE, if you want change PvP OK!!I agree to balance all, 100000% Agree but PvE its so sad.....with your skill you cant kill mobs with your same lvl....

The Arching Healer · Jan 06, 2010, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

I havent read all, but i just want say 1 thing :
Its the first time that i play a game with NERF/BUFFS of skills (IN PVE)...
What the sense?In this game you are force to cooperate or you cant do some areas/mission while, for example, in diablo II with your Sorceress you were able to do all, 1 fireball=50 mobs down...GW, 1 fireball= 1 Mobs laugh on you...what a cool game!!!!No sense all those things in PVE, if you want change PvP OK!!I agree to balance all, 100000% Agree but PvE its so sad.....with your skill you cant kill mobs with your same lvl....

I hope that every word in this post was ment to be sarcastic.

Jk)Phoenix · Jan 06, 2010, 11:40 AM // 11:40

D2 is a lot different from GW, played it for 4 years and GW for almost 5...
they are totally different, both cool but totally different.