Curse

animal fighter · Dec 26, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

guild wars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kaleban · Dec 26, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Isn't this caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills?

No.

Its caused by the necessity to grind PvE titles that are character based each time the Meta changes to accomodate the new Meta.

So if one guy's main is his Moebius Sin who has say all the PvE titles (Asura, Lightbringer, etc.) maxed, and the skills balance makes this combo obsolete for example, then he has to start a new character, and do all the same titles again, except this time its a Warrior or Monk.

That's not caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills, der, its caused by an extremely out of touch test krewe combined with poor direction at ANet. This game was SUPPOSED to be a grind free MMO that relied on skill, not time.

What we have received is the exact opposite, which no amount of apple polishing and doublespeak can cover up. Its almost as if ANet and its krewes are playing on private servers that don't interact with the general gaming populace of GW, and never encounter the same problems as the rest of us.

To wit, I would guess that none of them have yet tried to get a Deep PUG going in HM and successfully complete it. Or a full DoA clear. Regardless of skill balancing these areas are dead.

The game's problem is not skill balance, its poor area design, poor class implementation and a horribly designed reward/risk ratio. Until the general ANet apologists realize this, and ANet and its krewes finally admit to it being a problem, nothing will ever get fixed and the cycle of meta builds and speedclearing will continue. I 100% guarantee that skill balancing will not eliminate the problem of people trying to beat GW's content in the fastest time possible, unless ANet has some sort of retroviral bio-weapon capable of reverse engineering humanity's inherent greed and laziness in an easy to use airburst dispensing unit.

Gennadios · Dec 26, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

That's not caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills, der, its caused by an extremely out of touch test krewe combined with poor direction at ANet. This game was SUPPOSED to be a grind free MMO that relied on skill, not time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the test krewe set up a mere few months ago, and there has yet to be a skill balance released?

Ergo, we wouldn't really know that the Test Krewe is out of touch until we actually see a product of their labor.

You're dead on in regards to the char specific PvE skills though. I was hoping against hope that the HoM "upgrade" would actually be meaningful (I still remember how ANet basically admitted that the current system "Discourages players from using more than one character".)

Too bad that "upgrade" turned out to just be smoke, mirrors, and bull*** nonesense.

Kaleban · Dec 26, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the test krewe set up a mere few months ago, and there has yet to be a skill balance released?

Ergo, we wouldn't really know that the Test Krewe is out of touch until we actually see a product of their labor.

You're dead on in regards to the char specific PvE skills though. I was hoping against hope that the HoM "upgrade" would actually be meaningful (I still remember how ANet basically admitted that the current system "Discourages players from using more than one character".)

Too bad that "upgrade" turned out to just be smoke, mirrors, and bull*** nonesense.

You're completely right of course. What my problem is is that the Krewe is working on a SKILL balance in the first place, when its evident to anyone with an IQ over 85 that the issues I mentioned here and elsewhere are the real culprits behind the game's problems.

I'm sure that the Krewe isn't given access to source code and are unable to adjust gameworld parameters, basically they're just a glorified bunch of beta testers for a game that's been out for nearly five years, the problem is that ANet is even working in this direction.

ANet has decided its more important to continue trying to balance skills in PvE and introduce overpriced cosmetic fluff, instead of fixing the areas and the reward/risk ratio that is the root cause of the whole mess.

If that's not poor direction, I don't know what is.

lishi · Dec 26, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

No.

Its caused by the necessity to grind PvE titles that are character based each time the Meta changes to accomodate the new Meta.

So if one guy's main is his Moebius Sin who has say all the PvE titles (Asura, Lightbringer, etc.) maxed, and the skills balance makes this combo obsolete for example, then he has to start a new character, and do all the same titles again, except this time its a Warrior or Monk.

That's not caused by *gasp* unbalanced skills, der, its caused by an extremely out of touch test krewe combined with poor direction at ANet. This game was SUPPOSED to be a grind free MMO that relied on skill, not time.

What we have received is the exact opposite, which no amount of apple polishing and doublespeak can cover up. Its almost as if ANet and its krewes are playing on private servers that don't interact with the general gaming populace of GW, and never encounter the same problems as the rest of us.

To wit, I would guess that none of them have yet tried to get a Deep PUG going in HM and successfully complete it. Or a full DoA clear. Regardless of skill balancing these areas are dead.

The game's problem is not skill balance, its poor area design, poor class implementation and a horribly designed reward/risk ratio. Until the general ANet apologists realize this, and ANet and its krewes finally admit to it being a problem, nothing will ever get fixed and the cycle of meta builds and speedclearing will continue. I 100% guarantee that skill balancing will not eliminate the problem of people trying to beat GW's content in the fastest time possible, unless ANet has some sort of retroviral bio-weapon capable of reverse engineering humanity's inherent greed and laziness in an easy to use airburst dispensing unit.

The PvE skill are hardly necessary to complete the game, we all grind them because they are very overpowered, if they were balanced (or just a little better) then normal skills we won't be having this conversation now.

So yes, the problem is because of unbalance.

Kaleban · Dec 26, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

The PvE skill are hardly necessary to complete the game, we all grind them because they are very overpowered, if they were balanced (or just a little better) then normal skills we won't be having this conversation now.

So yes, the problem is because of unbalance.

So you're contending that the reason areas like DoA, the Deep and Warren, many dungeons and fully most of Prophecies are completely empty is because of PvE skill balance?

What are you smoking, and can I have some?

R_Frost · Dec 26, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I will also say this: if ArenaNet kills off 600-based builds, I really hope they raise the hero limit or allow henchmen in elite areas.

lets not forget to add, re-do the mob make up in those areas too. 600 isnt over powered compared to perma-sf. 600 had taken one nerf a long time ago when spirit bond was changed to next 10 attacks. 600 wouldnt be an issue had enemy mob spawns been more random in their make up and builds.

the current state of the game the changes of hero limit increase or henchies in elite areas arent going to hurt it game anymore then has already been done with the introduction of heros, poor skill balances and pve only skills. the economy has been screwed for a very long time so its not like it can be hurt anymore. the only reason for money now is to get that set of armor your missing or special weapon skin you may have always wanted, or farm your titles. the game can be played for a long time with very little gold.

Axeman002 · Dec 26, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

600 isnt over powered compared to perma-sf.

WRONG ! ! ! ! !......its vastly greater than perma-SF...only reason u think this is because more people find it easier..600 is more powerful but u got one more skill to click so people use the easier build...if SF was remoived 600 would be back at the top of 'easiest' farms.

lishi · Dec 27, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So you're contending that the reason areas like DoA, the Deep and Warren, many dungeons and fully most of Prophecies are completely empty is because of PvE skill balance?

What are you smoking, and can I have some?

What are you smoking for not be able to follow the thread of discussion?

Weren't we speaking of why we can't just change to one char to another like we used to before the introduction of those PvE skills?

Why those meta always include some pve skill? because we like the name? or because they are extremely overpowered?

Without them all we need to adapt (or better to develop) the new meta will just few k and maybe a elite tome.

lishi · Dec 27, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

WRONG ! ! ! ! !......its vastly greater than perma-SF...only reason u think this is because more people find it easier..600 is more powerful but u got one more skill to click so people use the easier build...if SF was remoived 600 would be back at the top of 'easiest' farms.

why we are still having this discussion? i could argue with you why i don't think you are right, but since both of them will be nerfed i'm pretty sure its pointless.

Gennadios · Dec 27, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

600 isnt over powered compared to perma-sf.

It has the capacity to clear some dungeons single-handedly (and alot more dungeons with the aid of a permasin.)

As much as the nerf will suck for me personally, it IS over powered, and the game WILL be better off if it's killed.

The only thing I'm worried about is how the hell I'm going to afford enough lockpicks for those damn chest-based titles after 600's gone.

Zehnchu · Dec 27, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

It has the capacity to clear some dungeons single-handedly (and alot more dungeons with the aid of a permasin.)

As much as the nerf will suck for me personally, it IS over powered, and the game WILL be better off if it's killed.

The only thing I'm worried about is how the hell I'm going to afford enough lockpicks for those damn chest-based titles after 600's gone.

Yeah I would support Anet for the removal of SF skill along with some other pve skills.

shoyon456 · Dec 27, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

The other problem is, though, that I have yet to clear the new Dhuum UW in a normal balanced group. The few times we came close we spent ALOT of time doing it.

There needs to be some incentive/buff/time necessary decrease for balance groups. I'm not saying do this literally, but structure areas in ways that would be conducive to the average player/group and discriminate "speed clearing."

Because such a drastic change would require much too much work and effort on a dying game, all they can do is kill the symptom of how elite areas are structured (permasin). I just want proof they won't f GW2 over in the same manner.

Sifow Chan · Dec 27, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59

SF aside, I wouldn't mind seeing nerfs to 600/smite and even "Save Yourselves!" (And I main a Paragon) but that would have to come with buffs to other things such as more faction from AB so faction speed clears would be less important and buffs to other vast majority of Paragon skills. It's stupid that Paragons, Dervs and most Mesmers all rely on the same builds for PvE. Imbagon for Paragon, Wounding Strike for Dervs in PvE and PvP because all other elites suck in comparison, Visions of Regret Mesmers. Hell, even Rits are only running SoS now because of the spirit buffs. Stop buffing Warriors and buff some other professions for a change. We get it, you like Warriors more...well screw them for a change, they always get the attention. While we're talking about Wars, Defy Pain seriously needs a nerfed PvP version. I'd also like to see a Nerfed PvP version of RoJ. I think some Ele earth and water spells need some work as well; how many +armor enchants do they need? Rangers are fine, Necromancers are fine and Sins...well I don't have time to list all the problems there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

I just want proof they won't f GW2 over in the same manner.

As much as I want to say kill Sins, because of the huge unbalance they caused GW1, that would contradict my feelings that all 10 professions can start from the beginning and be balanced together.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 27, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

I actually didn't thought of that....thanks for bringing it up. A lot of players only have ONE character that are fully developed (thanks grindy titles for that), so those players don't have the luxury of instantly switching to another character to do the next "meta" OR balanced.

I know plenty of people that only had all the necessary skill on the assassin, and a bunch of other characters that don't even have all the missions done.

Oh wow, and here I was under the impression that damn near all of the titles were nothing but some fake e-peen. Silly me...I guess people really DO need to limit how many characters they have!

(and before the "BUT PEE VEE EEE SKILLS NEED TITLE GRIND" people come in...you can get rank 5-6 fairly easily from simply completing the game, and for the most part, that is by far all you need to use the skills...the extra second or two isn't as big of deal as you make out)

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 27, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sifow Chan

SF aside, I wouldn't mind seeing nerfs to 600/smite and even "Save Yourselves!" (And I main a Paragon) but that would have to come with buffs to other things such as more faction from AB so faction speed clears would be less important and buffs to other vast majority of Paragon skills. It's stupid that Paragons, Dervs and most Mesmers all rely on the same builds for PvE. Imbagon for Paragon, Wounding Strike for Dervs in PvE and PvP because all other elites suck in comparison, Visions of Regret Mesmers. Hell, even Rits are only running SoS now because of the spirit buffs. Stop buffing Warriors and buff some other professions for a change. We get it, you like Warriors more...well screw them for a change, they always get the attention. While we're talking about Wars, Defy Pain seriously needs a nerfed PvP version. I'd also like to see a Nerfed PvP version of RoJ. I think some Ele earth and water spells need some work as well; how many +armor enchants do they need? Rangers are fine, Necromancers are fine and Sins...well I don't have time to list all the problems there.

Warriors are actually quite redundant in most PvE. I mean, unless you are doing the whole tank n' spank thing (which you shouldn't be doing), there's very little reason to take a Warrior over a Dervish, or even a Paragon.

Dervish can pump out more damage, and can actually use Warrior utility BETTER than a Warrior due to better energy regen/mangement (the utility being interrupts, stance removal, and to a lesser extent, DW). Warrior's extra armor is largely insignificant because well, unless you are doing tank n' spank, the monsters won't be targeting the warrior anyway. Which brings me to Paragons...which do nearly as much damage as a warrior, keep up SY! easier, have far more utility, and are ranged.

FyrFytr998 · Dec 27, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Which brings me to Paragons...which do nearly as much damage as a warrior, keep up SY! easier, have far more utility, and are ranged.

Agreed. Paragons are for those players that wished they could ranged attack with their Wammo's back in the day. I say combine the classes for GW2, lol.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 27, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

Agreed. Paragons are for those players that wished they could ranged attack with their Wammo's back in the day. I say combine the classes for GW2, lol.

I hope that wasn't an attempt at sarcasm.

shoyon456 · Dec 27, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Dervish can pump out more damage, and can actually use Warrior utility BETTER than a Warrior due to better energy regen/mangement (the utility being interrupts, stance removal, and to a lesser extent, DW). Warrior's extra armor is largely insignificant because well, unless you are doing tank n' spank, the monsters won't be targeting the warrior anyway.

Uh, you're kidding right? All you need is Warrior's Endurance and a Scythe. Compare Mysticism and Strength. As a main derv I will be the first to tell you that Warrior out modes the derv completely. Not only can the warrior do even MORE damage than the derv with Warrior's endurance and because of strength, but with a higher AL and the many very melee-oriented str skills like Bulls, warrior is not the one that needs the buff.

Fox Mulder · Dec 27, 2009, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Discord is not a farming build since it takes 2 players & 6 heroes, or 8 players of course. You even need a caller w/ a specific set of skills! My friend & I could not enter most HM areas w/o this skill. We play every day & have used discord to max EOTN titles, do zaishen missions & bounties. Anet chose to remove XTH for z-keys. How can I get them if discord is nerfed? We are not close to maxing treasure hunter or the lucky title track so this is DEFINATELY not farming! I will quit GW if there is a significant nerf to discord & I will not buy GW2.