Curse

StormDragonZ · Jan 20, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I might as well say this... NCSoft is the problem. Instead of keeping a game that was doing well for the most part, Guild Wars turned into nearly every other game under their belt with one little difference: It doesn't require you to pay a monthly fee.

Admit it, ANet. NCSoft gave you an ultimatum and you agreed.

Of course, it could be many possible factors. Let's hope this isn't just "we're too busy, go play something else" garbage in the end.

Otherwise, props to the OP. Despite looking like a cascade of text, it actually says something pretty GO RED ENGINE good.

Skyy High · Jan 20, 2010, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Eh...no. GW had/has a ton of problems, and GW2 will be a much-needed fresh slate. Piling new content, skills, mechanics and professions on top of the teetering house of cards wasn't going to help anything.

Greedy Gus · Jan 20, 2010, 05:10 AM // 05:10

OP is right. Skills that are severely problematic getting smiters boon'd (ether renewal'd, etc.) is a fast & easy solution. If you can work against people getting too attached to overpowered skills in general, then you have fewer CR problems down the line and more time to spend productively.

Shadowspawn X · Jan 20, 2010, 05:19 AM // 05:19

The OP is 100% correct. Anet should just crush SF to stop the bs. Why they stand around with their head in the sand is just retarded.

Giga_Gaia · Jan 20, 2010, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

immah say what everyone thinks : tl;dr
you lost me at "Hello Arena-net."

LoL yeah that post is way too long. From what I understand by quickly skimming through it is, that it's another thread about PvE OP stuff like SF?

FyrFytr998 · Jan 20, 2010, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

How is that possible that I myself (among many other guru posters) came up with a good balanced way to nerf SF mere DAYS after the problem arose (like 18 months ago) but Anet can't do something that simple and obvious for soooo much time?

Seriously, reverting it to Pre buff stats, changing it into a Form and increasing duration by 20% is the simpliest fix that could be done that isn't completely killing the skill. No rocket science, nothing that would require months and months of testing at all!

Conclusion is obvious - they don't want the game to be balanced. If they wanted, they'd fix the most glaring problems in the matter of days.

Seriously. I agree. Isn't this the whole premise behind the forming of the Test Krewe? Using player feedback to make adjustments to the playability of skills?

veteran_player · Jan 20, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Conclusion is obvious - they don't want the game to be balanced. If they wanted, they'd fix the most glaring problems in the matter of days.

Y'know, I never even considered this. All the stuff Regina promises and all the dev comments on the wiki had me pretty convinced that they were trying.

I think you are right, this has to be what they want................

It really is the only reasonable conclusion.

Something to think about when considering GW2.

Thanks.

Angelina Collins · Jan 20, 2010, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Players and people are stupid, spoiled little brats, always crying for mommy when they don't get their way, and A-net plays the part of mommy. We never needed skill modification, call it balance if you must, but there is nothing balanced about taking a normal skill and weakening it so satisfy some minority of PvP only players, or some crybabies.

Anet destroyed there own creation when they first introduced skill balance back during the beta of GW, and if you remember correctly, it was solely done to prevent domination of the alter map in HA, a PvP part of the game. Now it includes everything.

RPG's are meant to have powerful spells, and are meant to have conditions were some classes have advantages over others given certain conditions with in the game. To truly make something balanced is to make it boring, if everyone was on the same level with the same builds or skills, or talent, then the game would have died long ago, because it would be a virtual stalemate. We should be thankful for the players who took the time out to overcome Anet's balance modifications to give players more advantages over others. They should of left skills alone, and change the environmental factors of the game, that would have caused players to rethink builds to over come them, and they should have created new ones as a normal part of the game, to prevent power builds. Of course Anet developers are either too stupid, lazy, or not very cost effective when it comes to development. Maybe a combination of everything??

As for the gamers who have been brainwashed with Anet lies, shame on you for believing in the corporate Bullsh*t!!!!!!!

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 08:15 AM // 08:15

You just can't take away people's toys. No matter how much they should have never had them in the first place, if you take a handgun away from a toddler, but he really wanted it, he is going to cry.

What this means from a developers' standpoint is that under no circumstance can you allow something overpowered into your game. As soon as it is taken away, people are going to complain, no matter how obvious it was that they shouldn't have had it in the first place.

Right now GW is so far gone in that respect that it needs a D2 styled reset, but that just isn't going to happen.

nidy · Jan 20, 2010, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

The thing about all the discussions that say they want people to pug again is....they forget what pugging used to be like. They aren't thinking about taking thirty minutes to gather a group to go through a single mission, only to have the assembled troops fold like a paper towel because one guy can't do his job, charged ahead and got a vital NPC killed, went afk holding a vital bundle, or just plain failed. They don't think about all the annoyances, bothers, irritation, frustration, and general dislike of the entire affair, of people who didn't listen, of people who yelled and ranted when people didn't go exactly their way, of people ragequitting over trivial details or griefing or complaining. Etc.

Felt the need to respond to this. I also have been playing since release. Pugging definitely has its downfalls and heroes are great for countering those, I completely agree.

I don't think the OP is arguing for everything requiring pugging. I think it more has to do with the fact that I used to be able to find balanced groups going into the FoW and at least make it to the forge, and now you can't even step into the FoW unless you're running the FOTM. You just won't find a team anymore. And I personally think that this is a shame.

I'm not saying that the people using the FOTM builds are wrong, or that Anet RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up, or anything else, I just think it's a shame that someone walking into ToA and trying to do FoW as a beginner has to be a cog in the machine with a FOTM build instead of going in with a team and playing his class like he knows best, using the skill bar crafted over the course of completing the campaign.

DreamWind · Jan 20, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

I have to quash something I see a lot on this forum. That is the argument that "GW has always had problems and always will have problems regardless of skill balance, and GW2 will be the solution to this problem".

That statement is ridiculous on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. First, GW1 has had several periods of relative balance. GW1 has had several decent metagames. You can't say GW1 has always had problems because it hasn't! The only argument you can possibly come up with is that GW1 has some flawed mechanics, but even that isn't a great argument because many people thought the mechanics were perfect for PvP. Not to mention, how do you think a Z-axis is going to go over in this regard?

Second, you don't give up balancing a game with the argument that it is unfixable. That is the dumbest thing you can possibly do.

Lastly, it is not GW that has flaws. It is the company that runs it that has the flaws. People need to get this through their head. If Anet is not seeing obvious problems with their franchise this late in the game, it is clear to me that the problems will simply carry over to the next installment.

Yelling @ Cats · Jan 20, 2010, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by veteran_player

Why is it that you devote so much of your time to the players that want to put the least amount of effort possible into your game and your community?

Am I the only one that finds "Balancing SF" the opposite of this quote?

Turbo Ginsu · Jan 20, 2010, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by nidy

Felt the need to respond to this. I also have been playing since release. Pugging definitely has its downfalls and heroes are great for countering those, I completely agree.

I don't think the OP is arguing for everything requiring pugging. I think it more has to do with the fact that I used to be able to find balanced groups going into the FoW and at least make it to the forge, and now you can't even step into the FoW unless you're running the FOTM. You just won't find a team anymore. And I personally think that this is a shame.

I'm not saying that the people using the FOTM builds are wrong, or that Anet RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up, or anything else, I just think it's a shame that someone walking into ToA and trying to do FoW as a beginner has to be a cog in the machine with a FOTM build instead of going in with a team and playing his class like he knows best, using the skill bar crafted over the course of completing the campaign.

Don't need FotM builds to beat FoW HM. Hell, my guild has a weekly event called WTF-Way, which consists basically of a full HM FoW clear, with only non-core classes. No monks, no wars, no ele's, no rangers, etc. Well, not quite true, you see, due to the lack of PvE love they get, and because ppl simply don't understand them anyway, Mesmers can come too. We beat it, and we generally beat in it fairly decent time, and btw, before anyone pipes up(And not that it matters anyway

)we don't use a perma tank balling machine, etc.

My point is, you don't ever need to run a FoTM build to beat things like FoW, and you never really did. You just need a brain. If you get into a group consisting of morons, don't go with them again. Anyone silly enough to not keep a notepad handy to write down names of scammers, morons, and anything else annoying, is just asking for grief. The same thing went in Neverwinter Nights. Plenty of builds that could be seen as gimmicks, plenty of ppl who could be seen as idiots. Same approach, same end result. Nothing new here, please move along.

Ultimately, no matter what you do to a game, perfectly normal, innocent and perfectly modest and unassuming players like me, or the next guy, is gonna study it in the minutae. We'll study it, we'll find the path of least resistance, and we'll do it quickly. No matter where they are, or what they play, farmers will farm. GW gold, NwN gold, WoW gold, CoD ranks, DoD ranks, anything that is there to be farmed.

Because we are not monkeys(though they could prolly do it too)we tend to find an easy way around absolutely any game we play. Doing this is an integral part of human nature, and the reason we're on top of the heap. No matter what anyone says, I won't ever think less of anyone for creativity.

So, nerf away. We'll find a new way tomorrow. If you nerf that, then there's always the next "Way". I'm not saying that I advocate what anyone does, nor am I saying that aside of outright hacks and exploits, true exploits, you know "Press up against this point in map "X" and press "Q" and you instantly get 500k and a stack of arms, etc." type of deal, not well used skill synergies such as the perma or the 55.

Basically, the ones who all the changes don't drive away altogether, will adapt. We'll find a new build, and we'll be off. Simple as that. yes GW is broken. Yes SF and 600 are broken. Whoop-de-doo!! Fix it please so we can break it again eh?!

*Edit* tl;dr version. You can't force some people to party in a game. You can't force some people not to. Nerfs IME, rarely ever cause anything but adaptation and exodus. Equal parts.

Warvic · Jan 20, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

I agree with TS.

Why does it take so long to nerf OP skills like shadowform? Just give it 40 energy, or make it 6 second duration. Whatever... It doesn't matter!

snowman relic · Jan 20, 2010, 12:28 PM // 12:28

OP says break shadow form so its completly useless that is a crappy idea yea sure lets put sins at the bottom of the pile because of another worthless elite smart move OP killing off professions.

kvndoom · Jan 20, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowman relic

OP says break shadow form so its completly useless that is a crappy idea yea sure lets put sins at the bottom of the pile because of another worthless elite smart move OP killing off professions.

In so many words, you're saying that Assassins are useless without Shadow Form, but that's not true. Not invincible ≠ useless. Sometimes I think classes are judged by either their ability to solo or their ability to destroy 10+ enemies in less than 5 seconds.

I too, don't understand Anet's hesitation... they've made skills 100% useless before (even elites), so why did they just not kill it some time back and be done with it? By now people would have gotten over it and moved on, much like with Ursan.

Abedeus · Jan 20, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowman relic

OP says break shadow form so its completly useless that is a crappy idea yea sure lets put sins at the bottom of the pile because of another worthless elite smart move OP killing off professions.

Funny how people bring Assassins into groups with DB/MB or Shattering Strike. Oh, they don't? Maybe years of experience taught us that most of the Assassins are reckless, stupid and unpredictable.

moriz · Jan 20, 2010, 02:18 PM // 14:18

the best way to handle the shadowform issue is to take away the toy, and then give us a new toy. change it into a form, and let it give some nice dagger attack bonuses. top it off by changing the player into shiro tagachi (for males) or vizu (for females). done.

anet has fallen into the same trap than so many other software developers have fallen into: they are completely stuck in regulations and due processes that they cannot do anything fast enough. it's either that, or the live team is just completely incompetent.

Reformed · Jan 20, 2010, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

What this means from a developers' standpoint is that under no circumstance can you allow something overpowered into your game. As soon as it is taken away, people are going to complain, no matter how obvious it was that they shouldn't have had it in the first place.

I agree with your post but the problem the game is facing is not that they allow the stuff in it's that it stays in for such an unbelievably long time. In a perfect world their staff would find horrifically broken combos and squelch discussion on allowing invincitank type builds before they make it into a skill update. With well over 1000 skills though it's not always possible and yes, I do believe sometimes it's done on purpose.

About the Shadow Form part...change it to a form that doesn't have an Eternal Aura type recycle effect and no one is going to staple it to a bar. A hypothetical 2 minute cooldown on what will probably be a mediocre at best replacement for what SF currently is will wind up on the scrap heap. My prediction is that they change it to a shadow step of some type.

qvtkc · Jan 20, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I agree 100% with OP. Very well written.