Curse

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I see your point, but I believe the opposite is true. You believe personal skill and "tactics" can overcome botting, I believe the opposite. So far, my theory stands stronger as reality implies.

Let's be clear on what I'm saying. I'm saying that pickups aren't everything. Would such a bot confer an advantage? Absolutely. I'd be thrilled to be able to pick up anything in a match on 206 servers.

But that isn't all there is to it. The [MoO] guys were brutally effective not just because they could scoop. They were effective because they also antiicpated opponents' actions and took the proper countermeasures. That precision was machine-like, but not in the way that a bot can produce. They always had their players actively looking for ways to disrupt enemy movement, and they consistently used knockdowns and snares properly to disrupt attempts to steal a gift. I find scripting that level of decision-making unlikely.

A pickup bot would enable you to retain possession of a gift more often, but it can't save you from the tactics fails that ultimately cost you gifts. I recall stalemating a lot of 2v2s against players that you claim bot; that would have been impossible if they were botting and the bot were as decisive as you claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And if you guys want proof, WHAT proof exactly do you want? Do you want a vid of someone picking up a relic I drop, how does that proof anything?
Then I got to proof I'm botting. How do I proof I am botting, aside from making my bot public (Which is the plan?).

Why are you so hell bent on proving individual cases? Let ANet sort that out. If you really want to prove that someone bots, you need video evidence of impossible behavior. In the previous thread, you claimed that a dodge bot could tell whether or not a Hidden Rock was being thrown and choose to drop dodge accordingly. So put it to the test. They can't see who on your team Rocks up at match start, right? So have only half of the players on the team Rock up, then see whether or not the dodge bot can identify the players with Rock and dodge only those snowballs.

We know that it's impossible for a human to discriminate between the players with Rocks and the players without under those conditions. But the bot can't help itself; it knows and reacts accordingly. If you observe botlike behavior that cannot be produced by a human, you just found a botter.

We're quibbling over what a human can and cannot do. I see the same behaviors you observe and don't see bots, because I saw humans produce that behavior in the days before bots. Sometimes I have seen things that didn't appear possible during a match, but when I looked at the situation with Obs it became apparent that someone wasn't standing where they thought they were.

I think your plan of popularizing the bots is probably the best course of action if you want to see something done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmar Alech

- @Martin Alvito: get a webcam and broadcast/youtube upload your rbr sessions from the upcoming event with your keyboard and monitor visible.

- There's a pretty significant cost there. I'd rather not have everyone doing exactly what I do, thanks.
- It still wouldn't be conclusive. For all you know, the keyboard isn't plugged in and a bot is playing the run. I'm consistent enough that any minor discrepancies could be blamed on lag.

JR · Jan 20, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Cleaned the thread, again. Keep it on topic, keep it civil. Final warning.

sixacsix · Jan 20, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I think many people in this thread are severely understating the current situation.

These screenshots were posted on a certain qq website just yesterday:

You cannot post names, regardless of the reason for posting them.

(blurred names)

If this isn't a prime example of the current state Guild Wars and coding are to each other, I don't know what else to say.

All the information is available at this time to code bots that act strategically and play as "perfectly" as even remotely imaginably possible.

There seems to be the common misperception of bots as something repetitive, unintelligent and bad at the game. This is what macros are, not properly coded bots.
Bots can do anything you can imagine to optimize their gameplay.
There are virtually no limits in terms of how good you can get them to play, except maybe processing power but that should not even matter because there are just not enough variables the bot has to account for, especially with the current hardware.

En panis · Jan 20, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Arching Healer

Well we won with grenth vs everything except LR.
But Dwayna is still ftw. We played with 2-3 pve'ers who never snowballed before. We had 2 grenths, rest dwayna and we easily won the AT. Ofcourse we ended lucky on #2 in swiss (didnt know it back then) , so we got 3 dwayna in single elims. We even slaughtered LR with 10-4 that AT.

Okay first of all killed u man or borat whatever you are called why do u come here talking about bots and macros in snowball when you played in a guild where people used macros thats kinda sad.

And i think we never lost to [ban] this year except once when we resigned.

And thanks to Martin for nice posts.

Kattar · Jan 20, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixacsix

snip

That's not a bot, it's just an addon. Certainly it's an unfair advantage, but it doesn't play the game for you like the bots mentioned in this thread.

sixacsix · Jan 20, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

That's not a bot, it's just an addon. Certainly it's an unfair advantage, but it doesn't play the game for you like the bots mentioned in this thread.

Certainly true, but look at it! It has all the info to play the game for you perfectly.

Also AFAIK from what I experienced from this "addon", it is integrated into a "modded" version of Guild Wars that helps you play the game by interrupting skills (works with any build) and it has an integrated infuse bot that will detect incoming spikes by estimating the damage incoming to any target at any time and calculating according to your ping when exactly to start casting infuse to hit it just about at the right time to make the target survive and get the most out of the infuse (basically it tracks all skill casts, estimating attributes based on previous dmg etc, and as such can find the critical time when a target would be close to dying, and adapt based on that). Ofc taking into account own hp/mana/distance to the target etc.
It doesn't prevent you from playing normally, you can lock the bot on specific targets, or disable it altogether.
It also has a helper for perfect instantaneous weapon swapping so for example you can run a warrior and switch to a bow automatically to automatically dshot skills that you can choose ingame that are important enough to dshot.
It has many other features but you'd have to ask the tool's maker.

the current version also does swap your shield to the right +10 armor VS xx damage instantly on any incoming damage (it tracks casting and attack speeds) and it cancels your cast optionally against certain interrupt skills.

Yuris Sayuri · Jan 20, 2010, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I really hope Martin/Regina or some significant people of ArenaNet will take a look at this embarassing thread. Further, they should test/observe me while playing Snowball/RBR to prove that you're lying. I'm not even that good as u want to make other people believe to.

Show me a bot that is able to reach the RBR top10, I'd love to see them in action. You can't, cuz it's impossible.

Bots do exist in PvP and they really destroy the game and should get banned as often as possible. Anyways, no one has time for creating bots while the events are running, because all of them are competive players that want to learn/improve their skill on the track. Don't tell me about "private servers" now, you wouldnt have seen our little improvements from event to event.
Even the whole Top100 requirements increased from event to event.

I do know u wont listen to me, u neither do to some1 else in this thread, but somewhen you willl get better and probably you will understand what we are talking about. gl in that.

Karate Jesus · Jan 20, 2010, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixacsix

^ This is essentially why spike bots can be so good. If you get 4 well-programmed spike bots on a team, you can be damn well sure that someone will get raped.

It's just the way of GW now. People will continue to bot until Anet does something about it. They didn't do anything to JQ or FA bots, they didn't do anything to RR bots, they didn't do anything to PvE bots or festival event bots, and now they're not doing anything to GvG bots.

Welcome to the new GW. It's rather old.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 05:15 PM // 17:15

In reply to Martin:

You again seem to have misunderstood what I'm trying to say. I never claimed that there are bots that play Snowball FOR you. (Tough there are, but I can't post link :P)

I'm saying that there are bots who READ incomming packets and reply said packets with a pick-up one.

For some reason, you keep going on about: "Bots can't do strategy", and this and that. I agree. A bot does not reason, it's AI. But it doesn't need.

Just as with RBR, you do NOT need an stand alone script which does everything for you. All you need is a bot which takes care of all the technique aspects of said event/format.

The interrupt bot, for example, doesn't know how to run flags (if needed), nor how to move, but it DOES know how to interrupt 1/4 second spells.

So when you're talking that you see teams which I acuse of botting using relativly good tactics, it doesn't automaticly mean they are not botting. Botting ALLOWS you to EMPLOY BETTER TACTICS, because you don't have to camp the runner waiting for a pick-up anymore. The same reason cookie cutter builds in HA or GvG allow for better strategy. This is one of the main reason sinsplit was so effective. The gameplay itself gets reduced to nothing, so U can focus your brainpower on strategy.

That experiment you're talking about is something I DID do, I just didn't cam it because I was on a shitty pc (7-15 FPS, go!). Anyways, I did it exactly like you said: I hidden rock up out of range, Yuri DnD'd it. I went out of range but DIDN'T Hidden rock, and he ignored the snowball. I did this about 5-6 times. (So of each hidden rock, and regular) Each time, the KD'ing snowball gets dodged, the non-KD'ing doesn't.

YES, I admit, this, and also the fact he DnD's when surrounded by 6 enemy's (So when it would be really dumb to DnD) COULD be all concidence. As a matter of fact, the chances of him "dodging" the right snowball is exactly 50%. Concidering I've thrown +-15 snowballs, the chances of him DnD'ing ONLY the KD'ing snowballs is (1/2)^15. So either he's REALLY lucky, or there's something more going on. I believe the latter.

Prooving these bots exist and are getting used can only be proven by showing them examples. If I say Bspam is overpowered, that's a loose statement, and might or might not be true. If I say Bspam is overpowered, and say that every top guild is getting destroyed by xxx PvE guild, than I have "proof", as in the reality supports my theory. There is no other way of showing someone is botting, as you said yourself, besides seemingly impossible/inhuman behaviour.

Knowing the difference between a KD'ing and non-KD'ing snowball, aswell as DnD regardless of how the enemy team is set-up is that behaviour, for me personally. I then simply continued that train of thought based on the fact that all the people on that guild, are also the ones who get redicilously high scores in RBR. So I'm not making "loose accusations", there definatly is some logic behind them...

Kattar · Jan 20, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

I really hope Martin/Regina or some significant people of ArenaNet will take a look at this embarassing thread. Further, they should test/observe me while playing Snowball/RBR to prove that you're lying. I'm not even that good as u want to make other people believe to.

According to my extensive research (about 15 minutes on the interweb), these bots have been around for a long, long time. Like years.

Doubt they're going to do anything just because someone's posted yet another thread about it.

I'm not necessarily saying they don't want to do anything about it, I'm saying they're not able to do anything about it.

sixacsix · Jan 20, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

According to my extensive research (about 15 minutes on the interweb), these bots have been around for a long, long time. Like years.

Doubt they're going to do anything just because someone's posted yet another thread about it.

I'm not necessarily saying they don't want to do anything about it, I'm saying they're not able to do anything about it.

I think this is merely related to the fact the better ones of those bots have not been released publicly until now. But at this time, it is really starting to become a widespread issue.

Karate Jesus · Jan 20, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

I'm not necessarily saying they don't want to do anything about it, I'm saying they're not able to do anything about it.

There are things they could do, I just doubt they have the resources to actually do them. Hell, half the GvG botters in-game have posted a character name they use to bot on......it really wouldn't be that hard to look up.....

Kattar · Jan 20, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixacsix

I think this is merely related to the fact the better ones of those bots have not been released publicly until now. But at this time, it is really starting to become a widespread issue.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Although I don't know that it's as widespread as some would think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJ

There are things they could do, I just doubt they have the resources to actually do them.

Yeah. Seems like it would a major redesign of several major features like the game client, packet transmission, etc.

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixacsix

I think this is merely related to the fact the better ones of those bots have not been released publicly until now. But at this time, it is really starting to become a widespread issue.

This. And I believe, in this line of thought, if only a "elite" few get a shot a rewards through the aid of programs, because the devs are too lazy/incompetent to do anything about it, then EVERYONE should.

On January 29, right before the Wintersday event starts, the pick-up bot will be made public. I'm only abiding by Anet's rules, which is to "keep PvP fair". By having some people using bots, and them not replying to this issue, we can only conclude they don't mind. Therefor, everyone should get an equal shot at winning snowball AT's.

If they don't believe it's that serious of an issue, we'll make it one...

Junato · Jan 20, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

The issue is that players do not want to compete with bots. So, have separate servers for those who bot go to the bot server and those who want to go to a secure no botting server.

Kattar · Jan 20, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

On January 29, right before the Wintersday event starts, the pick-up bot will be made public.

How do you plan on broadcasting this to everyone?

Killed u man · Jan 20, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

How do you plan on broadcasting this to everyone?

I never said I, myself, will make it public. (And if I did, I meant, it will be, by a thrid party) But I gues through the aid of forums, PM to whoever wants it, or maybe even trial-in game acounts in GToB. (Tough I don't know if trial acounts can use all-chat and/or are still available)

Bear in mind, this is the absolute last resort. But if you had to pick the lesser of 2 evils, which one would it be:

-> A Holiday event were 2-3 botting guilds steal everyone rewards
-> A Holiday even were everyone (Or the people who engage in community works -forums, etc) has an equal chance, albeit with bots?

Junato · Jan 20, 2010, 05:38 PM // 17:38

-EDIT-

So it is possible that there are guilds of bots dominating the rankings? If thats the case how is anyone willing to compete with bots? just think that there are thousands of permutations of skills in a build and the bots already have the best set. Its kinda like Poker the bots have the best set of the house how is anyone going to compete in the rankings?

Fril Estelin · Jan 20, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Instead of releasing the code, what about this (since you have the code we'll assume you can execute it and bot; oh and change #101 to "the person at the bottom of the list" just to be consistent with the fact that you believe top RBRers are botting):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmar Alech

- @killed u man: get that bot, buy a new proph account, bot it to the top 100 in the rbr on the upcoming event. Show entry in ladder. Give the greased lightning to player #101 on the ladder.

Polgara Val · Jan 20, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

I would assume what your saying killed is that dth if I am not mistaken as a guild is somewhat dominating the top 100 in RBR by the possibility of botting?

I can tell you this much, it isint the case in the slightest, in fact if you knew most of the top 10 or 20 RBR racers they practically all come from various guilds, baring one who has a couple in there but that doesent mean a thing.

Pol

Edit; As others have said here ladies and gents try and keep things to a civil conversation otherwise the moderators will close this thread.