Curse

Chocobo1 · Jun 01, 2009, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Types of bots I've seen in JQ:

- A RoJ bot with, at least, [Ray of Judgment][Bane Signet][Castigation Signet][Fall Back]. May have other skills. Tends to use Bane Signet to start, then RoJ, maybe FB! on recharge. Will stand still for a few seconds before acquiring a new target, probably nearest, and then running towards it to use more skills. Alternates with targeting the nearest quarry (item) and running towards that. Very non-aggressive.

- A RoJ bot with, at least, [Ray of Judgment][Arcane Echo][Spear of Light][Signet of Rage][Bane Signet][Castigation Signet]. May also carry [[Stonesoul Strike], maybe even [[Smite] or [[Banish]. Tends to carry a melee weapon, but I've also seen a few rare ones with spears or wands. Auto-targets enemies, charges at them and uses skills when available.

- Saw a Necro bot today with a similar behavior to that second RoJ bot. Can't remember the bar, but it was the first time I'd seen something like it.

It would be nice if botting reports were made similar to Dishonor, in that when you report someone, it will say something like, "Xx Yy has been reported for botting."

Those aren't bots. Thats how much the people suck.

bena · Jun 01, 2009, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Those aren't bots. Thats how much the people suck.

uh no.... if you honestly look at those players you would agree they are bots. what he said is exactly what the bots do ALL the time. no human uses the exact same skill order in every situation.

consider also how these bots get out of base ... they ";" then "space" ok... fine, but they do that in the JQ outpost. go in yourself wait 5-10 minutes you'll see at least one, but more likely 3-5 bots run up to that sign.

also consider that ive seen these bots autotarget nearest enemy even when ive cleared all enemies from the area and the only one left.. is kurz base defender. and it runs straight into base. this is when we had all points and there was no reason so deathspawn to purple or anything, and besides it can straight back to yellow anyways.

the thing that REALLY bothers me is ive added these bots to my list and theyve been botting for at least a month. and ive been reporting them the whole way and gotten people on my team to report them as i can. i think nearly the whole team reported that one that went into base defense. but it is still botting....

so given that anet doesnt care about botting, how about an improvement to JQ.... make JQ a team game like ab... 2 teams of 4 or 3 teams of 9 would work marvelously at improving the player level and having people actually TRY. every other pvp has rewards for winning, the only other random setup is RA and you dont get nearly any reward for losing first round.... so people tend to bring stuff they think is good. all the other team formats at least ask for a moderate level of build order. also on a team format everyone wouldnt feel a need to have capping power. you can have a team with only one person capable of capping as long as the other persons on the team cleared/distracted the opposing humans. and obviously, few teams would accept a bot.

Devina Fava · Jun 01, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I used to get really steamed up about the bots in Jade Quarry, because I only discovered it after it became a Zquest and got quite interested at, if nothing else, the relatively quick faction gain.

Sadly I soon became desperately frustrated with the leechers and the bots. Initially more so the leechers, but increasingly the bots, especially as I think post-dishonour-change-update, the relative number of leechers has gone down.

I used to submit a report to support, manually, via the GW website, detailing the IGN, the incident, with a description of their behaviour. Pretty similar to that Botwatch link to Gaile's posting already mentioned in this thread.

I got the same canned, thanks for reporting, we will investigate to see if there is evidence of their botting.

Eventually one day I got a message back saying, we found no evidence of bot behaviour. I thought (perhaps naively) that way hay, this means the other ones I'd reported, they'd found evidence and done something about it.

Sadly, after that every bot I reported was greeted with the same "no evidence of bot behaviour" message, and I figure that somewhere along the line they'd decided to change the line. Possibly after my 100th report and they'd decided to see if they could discourage me from sending more.

Well it's worked, and I've given up. I report them for leeching and hope the new dishonour system does something. It's massively, massively frustrating to see clear bot behaviour, and for someone in support to come back with... sorry can't see any trace of it...

Amongst the behaviour I've picked up:

[1] Necros that spam Aura of the Lich and make random movements generally in the base, occasionally hitting a teleporter and ending up outside it, but paying no attention to the map (ie running into walls, etc).

[2] Paragon/Monks that spam Fall Back, maybe one or two other skills. Same random movements as above, large percentage of time in the base.

[3] Mo/Ps using RoJ as already discussed on this thread.

[4] Any professions that autorun towards a party member every few seconds. And do nothing else. It's patently clear that that's all their doing. I've also only ever noticed this if I'm at position 1 on the team, and I have no doubt now that I've pointed this out someone will rescript it so that they following position 4, or 5, or whatever...

[5] One specific warrior that I've bumped into so many times, with Enraging Charge, Purge Signet, amongst other skills. Uses the skills randomly, makes random movements... Or monks that do similar things if their specific builds might be different. WoH when no one needs healing, mend ailment when no conditions need removing, fall back when no one other than themselves are in range (and then proceeding to stand stock still next to a wall...).

[6] Rit spirit spammer, spamming spirits like Pain behind the res shrine...

[7] Ranger using Escape and barbed trap to run randomly around the base...

I've even seen the same culprits run around randomly in the outposts/staging areas, all day long making the same movements, and to get informed that there is no trace of bot behaviour...

Personally I don't understand botting in JQ, other than for improving the Kurzick title track - amber and jade I can't imagine are worth enough to bother with. For the ones botting for the title, then banning (or the real threat of banning) has to be a very strong deterrent if Anet would just do something about it... 30min a day from an Anet employee (or someone trustworthy - yes I volunteered and no I didn't expect to get taken up on it and no strangely enough I wasn't) would probably start getting the message across when the ban stick hits. It wouldn't take long... not if you can end up in a team with 4 bots/leechers.

Same story with the leechers, whether they just stand there or run to the base defender. And I tried to find out what the new dishonour system was by directing a question at support and all I got was I can't divulge the details (the Wiki and support knowledge base hadn't, last I looked, been updated post May 09 update).

It's also very annoying when I ask support questions along with my bot report, and they send the canned "we'll look into it" reply, with "if you have any further questions..." Thing is they generally don't bother to answer my original questions in the first place.

Makes you wonder... hence I've given up. I don't know under the new system if it's possible to get dishonourable for reporting too much anymore, but to get hit in the past because you report one leecher, and wind up with four in the next game and report them again...

AmbientMelody · Jun 01, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by moongod

Pblock/hum sig > RoJ /close thread

Yup and because of these idiotic botters Anet as a solution will forward 'ROJ nerf'. What will be next, meteor shower nerf? Or maybe searing heat? Wake up Anet, HIRE SOME SECURITY GMs, bots have been in this game since proph and you didn't literally do a

to stop them. I don't personally give a

about gold sellers and buyers you ban or claim to ban, I care about idiotic account buying spammers over pvp zones that seem to write the message and disappear before you type /report character_name and about those silling bots that just were, are and seem to always be in the place! My effort of reporting bots once where bots were running FFF farm at lutgardis ended up being threatened by a guy who already made gw life unbearable for my friend getting him spammed with 1000 messages each second for saying that aloud. Where the hell does this lead to? Bot anarchy? Bot mafia doing what they want? I didn't notice a

ing improvement to this day in this area!

Jeydra · Jun 03, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devina Fav"

I used to submit a report to support, manually, via the GW website, detailing the IGN, the incident, with a description of their behaviour. Pretty similar to that Botwatch link to Gaile's posting already mentioned in this thread.

I got the same canned, thanks for reporting, we will investigate to see if there is evidence of their botting.

Eventually one day I got a message back saying, we found no evidence of bot behaviour. I thought (perhaps naively) that way hay, this means the other ones I'd reported, they'd found evidence and done something about it.

Sadly, after that every bot I reported was greeted with the same "no evidence of bot behaviour" message, and I figure that somewhere along the line they'd decided to change the line. Possibly after my 100th report and they'd decided to see if they could discourage me from sending more.

You don't say. There never is any evidence of bot behaviour. I even asked in one of my tickets what it takes to prove that a player is a bot. The GM basically responded, all the information we need is in the game logs. He would say "we're taking this very seriously", but "screenshots, due to their static nature, cannot be used as evidence" and all that, but if any bot has been banned, I sure haven't seen it happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devina Fav

Personally I don't understand botting in JQ, other than for improving the Kurzick title track - amber and jade I can't imagine are worth enough to bother with. For the ones botting for the title, then banning (or the real threat of banning) has to be a very strong deterrent if Anet would just do something about it... 30min a day from an Anet employee (or someone trustworthy - yes I volunteered and no I didn't expect to get taken up on it and no strangely enough I wasn't) would probably start getting the message across when the ban stick hits. It wouldn't take long... not if you can end up in a team with 4 bots/leechers.

I can imagine another reason actually: using it for alliance faction. I'm not accusing anyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if some alliances used bots to maintain their ultra-high total alliance faction to maintain their towns and whatever.

The way forward obviously isn't going to be nerfing RoJ. Even if a bot does nothing other than hit the enter button and leech, even if a bot gets completely destroyed and dies 100 times in a match, it's still earning what it's meant to earn: faction points. It may earn faction slower, but earn it it will. The only way is to ban the bot, and by the looks of it that hasn't happened. I just don't get why. I've got a friend who is firmly anti-bot in the sense that it takes an extraordinary amount to convince him that someone is a bot. I showed him this set of screenshots where a "player" gets bodyblocked by a rock and doesn't move mosth of the match (which was over 2 minutes, since we were fighting outside his casting range) and then starts moving once we get within casting range. He said it might not be a bot, just really bad players. OK ... then one day he went into JQ and even he was forced to admit that there're bots around, but ANet obviously doesn't think so.

Really, please, one serious question:

What does it take to prove someone is a bot?? Give something players can reasonably get, and I'm sure someone somewhere will get it.

GourangaPizza · Jun 03, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

I have seen more annoying bots as Me/R in RA happily throwing its bar full of interrupts at the closest target activating any skills. Yes, Me/Rs trying to interrupt stances and shouts.

bena · Jun 04, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

"What does it take to prove someone is a bot?? Give something players can reasonably get, and I'm sure someone somewhere will get it."

this is what i want to know, i can prove macro command bots as reasonably as proving those bots can be. i mean seriously.... ";" "space"ing onto the jade flats sign should be proof enough. then one observation makes it blatantly obvious.

but really.... a bot is doing nothing more than what a human can do. and quite frequently less.

the same botters repeatedly frequent JQ... not 24/7 but a LOT. i'd say 90% or more are from two guild tags i'd be happy to pm to anyone. names too. but if the other poster stated reporting with all sorts of evidence doesnt matter...

well it IS impossible to prove a macro bot recorded with a slight timing randomizer... i can do it on my g19. ive recorded macros to one button discord call. and there is scripting in it to put in timing randomizers which i dont think these bots are even doing. if Anet looks at logs and bans by exact timing.... then randomized bots will show up.

THE best solution is to make JQ a team game like ab 3 teams of 3 or 2 teams of 4

if you wont accept our policing via /report or by screenshots or other methods ... let the players form teams. im pretty sure this would solve botting in jq period.

other solutions

altering the ease to get rewards.... there are no bots in RA for a reason for example.

making a captcha(sp?) type entry method

making a menu entry method that says 'click the red/blue/whatever color icon'
and failing to pick the right one denies entry and temp bans for 24 hr for repeated fails.

nerf JQ, make ABing the king of faction.

nerf JQ to be on par with AB.

come up with a real solution and implement it with GW2. please... take your time with GW2 and get things really good.

but again... the best solution is to have teams in JQ. this has the best chance to eliminate bots, and will improve basic skills in JQ (every team will plan on having a capper) this also means not everyone will feel like they have to cap.... people can PLAN to fit into roles and not be frustrated when 5 anti RoJ mesmers show up in game and cant cap.

JQ has extreme potential to be a really really fun cap control game. ive seen entire games built around that concept.

AKB48 · Jun 04, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

A well(or moderately well) programed bot > A retarded human player

and there aren't that many geniuses in JQ.

Elephantaliste · Jun 04, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

A well(or moderately well) programed bot > A retarded human player

and there aren't that many geniuses in JQ.

Indeed, geniuses don't play JQ...

Jarus · Jun 04, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I am sensing quite a bit of frustration here.

*nudges ANET*

pinguinius · Jun 04, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

I played JQ last night, and I saw 2 people who might have been bots, but could have been just as easily terrible people. One was a warrior who seemed just a tad too dumb and brought "Charge," the other an RoJ monk who didn't seem to take the positioning a human would. 2 out of 6 games (96 players) doesn't seem like a big enough problem to merit any kind drastic change. True, there might be a bigger problem during off hours when people leave their bots on so they can get faction during work/sleep and the amount of "real" players diminishes, but I didn't notice any major problem at peak hours.

bena · Jun 05, 2009, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinguinius

I played JQ last night, and I saw 2 people who might have been bots, but could have been just as easily terrible people. One was a warrior who seemed just a tad too dumb and brought "Charge," the other an RoJ monk who didn't seem to take the positioning a human would. 2 out of 6 games (96 players) doesn't seem like a big enough problem to merit any kind drastic change. True, there might be a bigger problem during off hours when people leave their bots on so they can get faction during work/sleep and the amount of "real" players diminishes, but I didn't notice any major problem at peak hours.

my ratio always seems to be 1-3 per game.

here's what to look for.... in JQ outpost look at the jade flats sign. i'd probably be willing to bet 50 bucks or more you will see a bot go for that sign within 5 minutes, and likely 3-6 bots. i tried this on the kurz side today and didnt see any.... im thinking the two guilds run the majority of luxon bots. vast majority.

upon entering mission, watch for anyone who hits fall back at a really stupid time... like 15 seconds or so... anything that makes them have fall back recharging when the timer hits 0.... few to no humans do that. if you follow that person around later most likely you will see its a bot.

the most common mo/p bot will ";" "space' then "tab" "first signet attack" "RoJ' this is easy to see because you will see them approach the object which is for example "yellow shrine" half a second later they turn towards the closest target. few to no humans do this sort of thing.

rojing closest object... well lots of newbs do this, but rojing a spirit is a bit weird even for a newb.

going after kurz base defender. with predictable results.

standing still using fall back and remaining still because there is no foe nearby.

the average person will not notice these bots because they are doing thier own thing. the bots are moving and casting and thats enough for most. sometimes you are on the other side of the map and thus cant tell.

the botting is clear, very frequent, not being addressed, and happening over long periods of time (1 month at least)

buff AB to be on par with JQ.

or

make JQ team based.

pinguinius · Jun 05, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Having just played many games at 2 am, the number of bots did increase as I predicted they would during off hours. Most of them were Luxon, and as a Kurzick I easily won about 10 games in a row, some of them 10-0.

I would not like to see it be team based, though; the randomness is fun (though the strength of RoJ really limits the amount of viable builds).

Longasc · Jun 05, 2009, 07:35 AM // 07:35

The number of bots is even more problematic on the Luxon side. (edit: I can totally confirm pinguinus observation)

Yesterday I did not have a single match without one or two RoJ-Bots, and always the same bots/guys.

Just take a look at eBay, you can buy such bots with user friendly GUI there. Title bots like drinking bot, JQ bot, FA bot, farm bot all in one package.

As Luxons rarely have waiting queues, I would not wonder if the manual tells players right away that maxing Luxon Faction is easiest done by just letting the bot lose a few matches there...^^

A reason for botting is that titles and pve skills efficiency is tied to them and that they are a huge grind. "Optional", of course. But all that is left to do, on the other hand. Another negative consequence of the title craze/achievement systems over real content and ideas.

This arena is nothing but a gigantic faction farm. ROJ rules supreme, it is too much about 1.) getting RoJ off, or 2.) interrupting RoJ. If they fix RoJ, there is still Necro suicide bombs but well. This thread is not about improving JQ but about botting.

@bena: Having to form a team would probably make this about popular as team arenas. We can speculate why this is the case, but a huge majority of players seems to prefer the random RA pairings over TA and formin a team there.

Edit 2: People still do not know the report function.
Nobody reports bots despite complaining. /report seems to be unknown.
And... they do not recognize bots at all. Do you know why they cannot detect bots? Reason: "he's moving".

Ouch.

bena · Jun 05, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

@bena: Having to form a team would probably make this about popular as team arenas. We can speculate why this is the case, but a huge majority of players seems to prefer the random RA pairings over TA and formin a team there.

Counterpoint: AB was very popular before the buff to JQ faction. RA and TA contribute to balth and glad. 3.5k faction a win and 2kish for a loss in a much shorter game length than AB .... in AB you get 1.5k for a win and an utter feeling of despair at a loss in a much longer game.

and a point to note about teams in JQ and RoJ It IS the ultimate capping skill and gives you healing in the same profession. I would predict that each team would have a designated capper. but only ONE capper. but as a team.... you can do things like my fire ele... ONE firestorm and nothing else kills all but the archer... so really, my ele build can pair up with strong 1v1 builds as long as they worked together. vast combinations are possible, but the point is, only one person on the team needs to be able to cap the rest are free to do whatever.... this means less people will have to play cap builds.

as it stands right now.... ab sucks for faction and takes too long. JQ is overrun by bots in addition to other issues... but MQSC is doing well. To me, PvP lite (ab/jq) are much more fun than farming faction.... but MQSC is obviously superior. ive not done it yet, but i have done MQ with 2 man discord and even THAT feels superior to JQing for faction.

personally i think PvP rewards should be superior to fff... something like a close loss should be on par with MQSC. people will still like MQSC because its reliable set builds no thought etc. but will be encouraged to pvp lite

Longasc · Jun 05, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I was doing some AB today, and you are right.
The point balance is way off - AB is now the by far worst. A loss in FA gives more faction. I am not keen on MQSC, did too much DTSC before... ugh.

Balance issues aside, something needs to happen. The bot/player ratio is getting "funny". Luxon side especially. I did not experience so much bots on the Kurz side.

AKB48 · Jun 05, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephantaliste

Indeed, geniuses don't play JQ...

your point then?

Ghost Omel · Jun 05, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Have to agree that bots are taking over and been taking over since the nerf to the HFFF. which is ironic...HFFF did not cause other players to "suffer" but after its "nerf" and boost to the arenas it hurts more players.. I think Anet didnt expect such a result in my opinion..

Im not a genious so i dont know how to whipe out bots or cause them to be ditected right away...Some 1 has stated to make teams be formed for those arenas.. but it takes away that feeling of the army on army action..instead your going to have another aquad battle with gimmics..at which point the most gimmicky will win....Double edged sword ..dont you think

Chocobo1 · Jun 05, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by bena

uh no.... if you honestly look at those players you would agree they are bots. what he said is exactly what the bots do ALL the time. no human uses the exact same skill order in every situation.

*rabble*

I lol'd. There are a lot of bad players that c spacebar and 1-8 on anything, even when using RoJ. It's sad, but they aren't bots.

But I do agree, there are a lot of bots in JQ and it's getting really bad. The worst is this stupid Charge bot I always report. Charge to Yellow shrine iirc, attack stuff till it dies then breaks and sits in base.

Devina Fava · Jun 05, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by bena

but if the other poster stated reporting with all sorts of evidence doesnt matter...

To be fair, if you meant me then I didn't report with "evidence" per se, just information as to their behaviour that was bot-like, the time of the incident, etc. I mean honestly if someone is spending 1/2 the game in base meandering left, meandering right, meandering forward, using purge sig, meandering... you get the idea... it's pretty obvious it's a bot.

I wonder if the GW team can sort of re-create the instance and have a look and it would about 2s to confirm botting. Mebbe if they're just looking at logs and there is a bit of randomness, then who knows...