Curse

The Drunkard · Feb 18, 2010, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

I'm not sure I ever heard ANet say the UW changes were to 'improve' the game per se or 'stop' speed clears, but moreover that they just wanted to slow down the UW speed clears.

To that end they have achieved their goal. As the OP stated, the pre-Dhuum record was 7 minutes and post-dhuum it's 23 minutes.

Agreed. Hopefully when Anet kills off shadow form they rebalance the areas that required degenerate builds such as the permasin in the first place.

coil · Feb 18, 2010, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

I'm not "crying about how people choose to play the game". I know players will adapt to whatever changes Anet makes. The question is why does Anet "fix" things when that fix makes areas more off-limits to most players and just increases the rewards for the people that were already playing them. 7 minute speed clear. 23 minute speed clear. It doesn't matter that they increased the time of the speed clear. Being able to finish an "elite" area in such a short time with the potential for a huge reward is a broken game mechanic. It takes longer than that to vanquish most areas of the game.

that's why i put the "if" in that statement :P

but how is that mechanic different for any other "elite" area? like you said, players will adapt and find the quickest route to the end goal: the chest. by your measurement it takes longer to vanq most areas of the games than all of the elite areas so they are all broken. but, like i said, pve is static and unless there is some new content addition, things won't change (maybe tack 10-20 mins on completion time dependent upon skill changes)

but really, i don't think this change was intended as a literal "fix".

i agree with you, however, that the irony of the situation is laughable, as illustrated by the poster i quote below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Clouser

I've been trying UW since the update with all kinds of groups. No SC. I tried as a Warrior and as a Ritualist. The biggest problem for me was to keep the party intact until Dhuum. After an hour most of them got bored or some of us were really fail and we... oh well, failed. Frustration galore. Last time I tried we ended up in a 6 man party and we had to work our way through the last quests to have fun with Dhuum. After 5 or 10 mins of toying with Dhuum we got slaughtered. Yes. That was the most fun I've had in UW lately (sarcasm meter should spike).

yes, some parts of UW now are fairly challenging as a "non speed clear" group. but wasn't this the same group that were crying about the speed clearers?

regardless, you're doing a couple things wrong, the worst of all: youre pugging. 1 hint that would save you a lot of frustration is dhuum can be easily countered by 1 party member with 3-4 specific skills.

Little O B S I · Feb 18, 2010, 11:28 AM // 11:28

With SF nerfed things will certainly be different. Invincibility is the way to describe perma sins and the only thing that can kill them is their own idiocy. It was a broken mechanic from the beginning but it only took them this long to fix it because they used to care about PvP.

Steps_Descending · Feb 18, 2010, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

Regardless, you're doing a couple things wrong, the worst of all: youre pugging. 1 hint that would save you a lot of frustration is dhuum can be easily countered by 1 party member with 3-4 specific skills.

I've been away from the meta for too long, what are those skills that counter dhuum?

Reformed · Feb 18, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I've been away from the meta for too long, what are those skills that counter dhuum?

If you run this in a real group you can really handle him with 2, Earthbind and Great Dwarf Weapon. He's built in such a way that a normal monk is going to have a hell of a time pushing the groups bars plus all the reapers. Either he's got a very OP regular attack or Reaping of Dhuum doesn't do what it says it does (AoE to the room w/o a 4 hit limit). Easier to just keep him on the floor.

Anduin · Feb 18, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I want to be able to do this 2 players with heroes like I was able to before the update.

WHen SF gets nerfed, they better rebalance the area.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 18, 2010, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Why didn't ArenaNet just give Shadow Form the Smiter's Boon treatment?

Markus Clouser · Feb 18, 2010, 02:44 PM // 14:44

^ I'll go with 3-4 players and some good heroes. But only for NM.

Kaleban · Feb 18, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Agreed. Hopefully when Anet kills off shadow form they rebalance the areas that required degenerate builds such as the permasin in the first place.

Degenerate build? I lol'd

Look at your statement again. Unbalanced areas REQUIRED invincibuilds.

Think about that for a second. So what happens when ANet removes "invincibuilds" from the meta? Have they ever shown a willingness to thoughfully and comprehensively rebalance an entire area's difficulty?

Or do they usually send in the clowns? In this case, Dhuum and skellies. Have cocked ideas that don't really fix anything.

So here's my prediction. ANet caves in to the the SF Haters who are sick of their exclusive rights to ectos being given to every Tom Dick and Jane in the GW playerbase, nerfs SF to hell and makes it simply emit colorful smoke and makes the Sin take quadruple damage.

Then they leave the areas as is, which means only the most elite of elite players can access and finish said areas, marginalizing 95% of the GW playerbase and PUGs from ever setting foot in the loading areas.

So much for cooperative and fun instanced gameplay that caters to a wide variety of skill levels.

Gill Halendt · Feb 18, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Degenerate build? I lol'd

Look at your statement again. Unbalanced areas REQUIRED invincibuilds.

Not quite. Lazy people took the shortcut and used invincibuilds that are no way mandatory in ANY area just to get their accomplishment and goods easily.

Reformed · Feb 18, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Not quite. Lazy people took the shortcut and used invincibuilds that are no way mandatory in ANY area just to get their accomplishment and goods easily.

To be fair, and as an example, the DoA is really going to go one of 3 ways.

-Fight in an amorphous blob with no real positioning running an imbagon with a caster spike.

-Physway type setup that involves ER infusers.

-One of the various invincitank builds supported by a caster spike. ObFlesh was the staple until SF came along with 600 being used almost exclusively for farming.

While its true you could probably complete an easier area like say...City with a legit build, it would take a miracle to clear Foundry in either difficulty. Anet fostered this type of gameplay by passing right through challenging fun hard to unfair requires gimmick hard. It's only natural then that people see how effective those builds were in the DoA and how easily they can dominate everything else being an order of magnitude less difficult.

Kaleban · Feb 18, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Not quite. Lazy people took the shortcut and used invincibuilds that are no way mandatory in ANY area just to get their accomplishment and goods easily.

And how exactly does that impact your playstyle and experience? Just because some guy in China runs a permasin doesn't mean you have to right?

Or are you really that concerned about maintaining some sort of economic superiority over other players? In a game.

Yawgmoth · Feb 18, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

The UW changes would only improve the game if they came right in the same update as the 20+ months overdue *SF NERF*. Adding just new rewards only further rewarded those who kept farming with SF, which was a FAIL move by Anet. Again.

Gill Halendt · Feb 18, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And how exactly does that impact your playstyle and experience? Just because some guy in China runs a permasin doesn't mean you have to right?

Or are you really that concerned about maintaining some sort of economic superiority over other players? In a game.

Exactly. It's only that one guy in China, so I don't bother.

I say, a /noclip command should also exist, so we can go through walls and skip content alltogether.

/endsarcasm

Actually, I don't care. I didn't care when people moaned about Ursan Blessing, see if I care now. But please, be honest. People like SF because it made the game easy (often accessible to a point their actual ability didn't allow them to) and makes them "rich". I don't care if they do. Who mantains this game (err... sort of...) does tough. So I don't even care if they take SF and blew it up to smithereens. It's their choice, it's their vision of their product. I personally find this way of playing rather pathetic, but it's MY opinion. Anyone is entitled to have one, so if you don't agree, fine with me, play whatever you like.

I have no "economic superiority" over anyone, I'm a rather average player when it comes to "virtual wealth". I never cared about it, and mind you I have two sins in my account, and I could well run Perma builds and make me much richer than I am. It's the other way round: all I can think of is people moaning or even threatening to quit if SF is nerfed because they won't be able to hoard stuff any longer. In a game.

Anduin · Feb 18, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Degenerate build? I lol'd

Look at your statement again. Unbalanced areas REQUIRED invincibuilds.

Think about that for a second. So what happens when ANet removes "invincibuilds" from the meta? Have they ever shown a willingness to thoughfully and comprehensively rebalance an entire area's difficulty?

Or do they usually send in the clowns? In this case, Dhuum and skellies. Have cocked ideas that don't really fix anything.

So here's my prediction. ANet caves in to the the SF Haters who are sick of their exclusive rights to ectos being given to every Tom Dick and Jane in the GW playerbase, nerfs SF to hell and makes it simply emit colorful smoke and makes the Sin take quadruple damage.

Then they leave the areas as is, which means only the most elite of elite players can access and finish said areas, marginalizing 95% of the GW playerbase and PUGs from ever setting foot in the loading areas.

So much for cooperative and fun instanced gameplay that caters to a wide variety of skill levels.

I hate it because it is basically required to use a permasin now in order to beat the area.

This update impacted my playstyle. I like to h/h or 2 players + heroes my way through the game, and elite areas, like I always have. I don't want to team up with people to play UW. I want to be able to play through it like I used to. I didn't care how long it took, it was doable. Now it's almost insta-failure with the changes to the quests.

It works both ways. The update that was supposed to hamper speed clears has kept me from even going back there. Just another check on my list of why I'll not be buying the next one.

To Chicken To Die · Feb 18, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Very simple. The new adds on the UW chest like mini's etc would be to expensive when they would nerf SF and speedclear with it. So first they change the content. Wait till the items get overfarmed and will be worth crap. Then nerf it (not even sure in this matter but it looks like it is starting to happen "Someday"). And then think they have done a good job but wondering why noone is interested anymore in overfarmed items. Wih a result of empty ToA etc.

Anonymous IXl · Feb 18, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Dont forget mini Smite Crawlers! Ya... EPIC FAIL

To Chicken To Die · Feb 18, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous IXl

Dont forget mini Smite Crawlers! Ya... EPIC FAIL

Mini smite crawlers is pure <3

Axeman002 · Feb 18, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

nerf the shit out of shadow form- problem solved. if people come up with new ways to speed clear, nerf them into the ground too. sooner or later people will HAVE to play 'normal' pve builds again and runs will end up taking a couple hours like they were supposed to. by normal i'm talking about bad tanking wars, bonders, ss, .....

Then why were the skills-consets-sweets to raise att/speed etc and for the people who say its a team game not solo...why were hero's brought in...to keep it normal???...i think not, the game has evolved to where it is and some people just cant handle change unfortunately.

@ Deatgs Corrupter...i was only gone 4 weeks...but to come back to the exact same arguements as a whole month before was abit lame.

Carboplatin · Feb 19, 2010, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

To be fair, and as an example, the DoA is really going to go one of 3 ways.

-Fight in an amorphous blob with no real positioning running an imbagon with a caster spike.

-Physway type setup that involves ER infusers.

-One of the various invincitank builds supported by a caster spike. ObFlesh was the staple until SF came along with 600 being used almost exclusively for farming.

Thats far from the truth. There are many ways to do DoA, some faster, some slower, just requires you to be creative.