Curse

Tom Swift · Dec 14, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Just 4 more days and we will finally be rid of this ****ing thread! Woooooooo Hooooooooo.

LOL I'll bet a frozen ecto that we don't see the skill change until after wintersday. (based on the fact the test krew did not get the chance to try things out until two weeks ago, skill changes usually come on the 2nd thursday, and putting them out this week will put them too close to the wintersday activities and make the ability to judge their effects too confusing.)

I'll bet one more frozen ecto that the actual change will only be Glyph of Swiftness = "your next 1...3 elementalist spells recharge 25% faster, and projectiles from those spells move 200% faster. (based on the fact that the devs seem to like perma sf and have only reluctantly and lately even hinted at doing anything about it and that one of the test krewe said something like "a skill" important to the perma shadow bar would be changed - which would not have made sense if it was shadow form itself being nerfed. Basically, I think any change they make will still allow perma sf as long as you use cons - sorry, but like i said, the devs seem ot love this build)

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 14, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Yelling @ Cats & Kaleban: If you two would like to continue your largely off-topic back-and-forth debate, excluding all others, I suggest you do so via Private Message.

I'm sorry.

QQ SF is going away and I can't solo the game anymore

Kaleban · Dec 14, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

I'll bet one more frozen ecto that the actual change will only be Glyph of Swiftness = "your next 1...3 elementalist spells recharge 25% faster, and projectiles from those spells move 200% faster. (based on the fact that the devs seem to like perma sf and have only reluctantly and lately even hinted at doing anything about it and that one of the test krewe said something like "a skill" important to the perma shadow bar would be changed - which would not have made sense if it was shadow form itself being nerfed. Basically, I think any change they make will still allow perma sf as long as you use cons - sorry, but like i said, the devs seem ot love this build)

That is actually a simple yet elegant solution.

However, I would say that if that change occurs, then they need to balance Deadly Paradox/Shadow Form combo to allow two, possibly three rotations before it becomes un-maintainable, similar to the way some VwK and Spellbreaker builds work.

So it would cease to be be an uber tanking build, but still retain some general usage as a farming skill and/or run skill in tough areas.

The other option since people seem to be most angry that it can "solo" the entire game (a claim I and others have disproved over and over again, but for the sake of argument, w/e) is to allow it be maintained indefinitely, while consequently doing one of these two:

1. Ends on an attack, attack skill or offensive spell. Not sure how they would script it, but basically make it so that doing anything but maintaining it would cancel it, which would allow Permas to still act as tanks without doing damage or...

2. Change the damage output reduction while under Shadowform from 33% to 100%, which kind of makes sense if you think of it as Stealth or as becoming a shadow, which can't interact physically with others.

[edit]I think the damage reduction change is the optimal solution, this would allow a Sin to use the skills necessary to maintain SF, while packing snares like Grasping Earth or even Deep Freeze (0 damage with the change) which would replicate aggro holding in games like WoW which have aggro rating.

In either case, Shadowform ceases to be a solo farming skill and becomes a tanking skill. As it would be unable to deal damage it certainly could not solo, and would encourage party play, just as an OB Flesh tank would. I'm not sure if having enchants cast on top of SF would be a good idea, like Monk smites for example, since this would circumvent the idea of the Sin being a shadow tank. But it might not be such a bad idea to allow a SF/Smite combo team.

I think allowing Perma-SF to remain in game, but changing the way it works to depending on others for damage is a much better solution than nerfing it back into useless obscurity.

This method of balancing, making each character have a specific role in a party to fill, is what party balance is all about. Of course, given the GW community's penchant for optimization, a team build that has one modified SF tank may end up with seven RoJ smiting monks, and not take Eles or what ever else, HOWEVER having a dependable and solid main tank that is largely immune to harm gives MUCH more flexibility to team makeup in elite areas.

Which means of course that under optimized builds, or even marginalized classes such as Mesmers and Rangers could be taken without hesitation, if a party knows its got a solid tank that can hold aggro with little fear of dieing.

This "safety net" was the point behind Ursan being introduced. I personally thought Ursan was a great idea, it allowed any player, regardless of base class to participate in high end areas without fear of rejection, and those high end areas were packed. The only requirement was a high Norn rank to make it as efficient and safe as possible, and for most I think that's not far out of reach.

Once Ursan became nerfed, all those classes that weren't War/Ele/Mo were once again rejected from groups. A skill may be "overpowered" compared to other skills, but if it allows people to play together in areas that were heretofore off limits due to class exclusion and preferentiality, then its a good skill in my book.

Steps_Descending · Dec 14, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

I'll bet one more frozen ecto that the actual change will only be Glyph of Swiftness = "your next 1...3 elementalist spells recharge 25% faster, and projectiles from those spells move 200% faster. (based on the fact that the devs seem to like perma sf and have only reluctantly and lately even hinted at doing anything about it and that one of the test krewe said something like "a skill" important to the perma shadow bar would be changed - which would not have made sense if it was shadow form itself being nerfed. Basically, I think any change they make will still allow perma sf as long as you use cons - sorry, but like i said, the devs seem ot love this build)

That or maybe DP are the most probable answer. That could at least block runners, I doubt they will buy a cons for every run. That's, what? 3k out of th ewindow just for a single dungeon. Still possible, but you'll need a full group and all...

Or simple Quickening Zephir and more energy management!

BTW if we're off-topic, what was the original point of the topic?

lishi · Dec 14, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

That or maybe DP are the most probable answer. That could at least block runners, I doubt they will buy a cons for every run. That's, what? 3k out of th ewindow just for a single dungeon. Still possible, but you'll need a full group and all...

Or simple Quickening Zephir and more energy management!

BTW if we're off-topic, what was the original point of the topic?

If anet have ever learned something from their mistake would be something like.

For xxx second you will be yyy witch don't include attack and spell against you fail.

Something like this.

Recharge 15 second
Stance. for 1...5 second you become invisible to enemy (lose aggro), they dont body block anymore. End if use a offensive spell or attack. That attack deal +xxx more damage.

Keep the pvp version as it is now.

And gasp maybe this is what is actually an assassin supposed to do, kill a vital target instead of you know ....

FyrFytr998 · Dec 14, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'm not sure if having enchants cast on top of SF would be a good idea, like Monk smites for example, since this would circumvent the idea of the Sin being a shadow tank. But it might not be such a bad idea to allow a SF/Smite combo team.

I'm not sure you can do SF/Smite since all attacks miss. So there'd be nothing to trigger the damage for Retribution/ Holy Wrath.

How about SF/SS?

EDIT: Yeah just double checked. A Smite Monk is useless to a SF'er.

Martin Alvito · Dec 15, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

That could at least block runners, I doubt they will buy a cons for every run. That's, what? 3k out of th ewindow just for a single dungeon.

There's this concept called passing the cost onto the customer that you should look into. The run will still have the same underlying value to players, and for some of them it'll still be worth it even with the additional cost factored in. Net result: fewer people get run, fewer runners exist, runs are more expensive, but runs still exist. No one wins.

That's the worst of all possible "solutions" to the problem of SF; it does nothing to fix the problem, making no one better off and some people worse off. Let's hope that's not what gets implemented.

Barrage · Dec 15, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Recharge 15 second
Stance. for 1...5 second you become invisible to enemy (lose aggro), they dont body block anymore. End if use a offensive spell or attack. That attack deal +xxx more damage.

This,,,,, I like

Steps_Descending · Dec 15, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There's this concept called passing the cost onto the customer that you should look into. The run will still have the same underlying value to players, and for some of them it'll still be worth it even with the additional cost factored in. Net result: fewer people get run, fewer runners exist, runs are more expensive, but runs still exist. No one wins.

That's the worst of all possible "solutions" to the problem of SF; it does nothing to fix the problem, making no one better off and some people worse off. Let's hope that's not what gets implemented.

Yeah actually this is probably what would happen, even if runs triple in price. It would just be longer to gather the clients. But a lot of people wouldn't shy away from 10-15k runs. If it reaches that high, lastr time I bothered about run price was ages ago. I could be saying complete non-sense.

Kate Monster · Dec 15, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

I hope that if and when SF does get nerfed, there will be a moment of clarity or rather an "oh sh!t" moment for all those who complained about it..or rather b!tched when they realize that they shot themselves fatally in the foot. Because with the loss of SF..yeah...the dungeon speedclears will fade..but then again..so will all the outpost runners and faction providers. Uhoh..did someone forget that those lil guys & gals you paid or tipped to get you your EOTN tour of outposts so you could get your armor, sunglasses, dread masks, etc also use SF. How much will you b!tch then when you actually have to walk your butts there with your crappy h-n-h crew. The same goes for the other elite skills on the potential chopping block. First PermaSins, now 600/smite monks. Good luck getting your hard mode dungeon books filled in without those guys. Oh..and those who do the DTSC...it's gonna be harder to maintain those town ownerships...you might actually have to start playing AB again.

It's getting really old the b!tching about people who choose to farm or speed run dungeons vs those who don't. Farming is NOT hard..it doesn't take a genius to use a skill bar. Nor is speedclear. I've seen a lot of idiots successfully farm just about anything. The problem is not the skill, it's choice of how you use it. If you don't want to use a runner, fine....hnh it yourself or go pugstyle, but ...expect to be a little poorer in game than the rest of the crowd and take a bit longer to get the stuff you want in the long run. But for the LOVE of Balthazar, please quit screwing it for the rest of us who enjoy getting things done a lil faster and easier. IMO...Anet needs to keep balance in PVP arenas and leave the PVE world alone because if it ruins the game any further than it has...no one is gonna want to play it now or any future version, no matter how pretty the graphics are.

Oh..and good luck to the survivors, you guys will especially need it.

Arduin · Dec 15, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

^- I'm fine with that. Really. I don't need runs or speedclears and I can manage without SF, 600/smite, discord and the likes.

athariel · Dec 15, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Monster

I hope that if and when SF does get nerfed, there will be a moment of clarity or rather an "oh sh!t" moment for all those who complained about it..or rather b!tched when they realize that they shot themselves fatally in the foot. Because with the loss of SF..yeah...the dungeon speedclears will fade..but then again..so will all the outpost runners and faction providers. Uhoh..did someone forget that those lil guys & gals you paid or tipped to get you your EOTN tour of outposts so you could get your armor, sunglasses, dread masks, etc also use SF. How much will you b!tch then when you actually have to walk your butts there with your crappy h-n-h crew. The same goes for the other elite skills on the potential chopping block. First PermaSins, now 600/smite monks. Good luck getting your hard mode dungeon books filled in without those guys. Oh..and those who do the DTSC...it's gonna be harder to maintain those town ownerships...you might actually have to start playing AB again.

It's getting really old the b!tching by people who choose to farm or speed run dungeons vs those who don't. Farming is NOT hard..it doesn't take a genius to use a skill bar. Nor is speedclear. I've seen a lot of idiots successfully farm just about anything. The problem is not the skill, it's choice of how you use it. If you don't want to use a runner, fine....hnh it yourself or go pugstyle, but ...expect to be a little poorer in game than the rest of the crowd and take a bit longer to get the stuff you want in the long run. But for the LOVE of Balthazar, please quit screwing it for the rest of us who enjoy getting things done a lil faster and easier. IMO...Anet needs to keep balance in PVP arenas and leave the PVE world alone because if it ruins the game any further than it has...no one is gonna want to play it now or any future version, no matter how pretty the graphics are.

Oh..and good luck to the survivors, you guys will especially need it.

It's not about being easy or hard. I do HM books without problems without using Shadowform (protip: heroes & henchmen). There is no "skill" involved in SF. You just press 1,2 and optionally you can attack or cast a spell.
What I especially hate about SF is that even if I finish a dungeon which takes 1.5 hour to do (eg. FoW), almost every drop is useless because it's overfarmed by thousands of thousands of SF sins.

Nerel · Dec 15, 2009, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Monster

I hope that if and when SF does get nerfed, there will be a moment of clarity or rather an "oh sh!t" moment for all those who complained about it..or rather b!tched when they realize that they shot themselves fatally in the foot. Because with the loss of SF..yeah...the dungeon speedclears will fade..but then again..so will all the outpost runners and faction providers. Uhoh..did someone forget that those lil guys & gals you paid or tipped to get you your EOTN tour of outposts so you could get your armor, sunglasses, dread masks, etc also use SF. How much will you b!tch then when you actually have to walk your butts there with your crappy h-n-h crew. The same goes for the other elite skills on the potential chopping block. First PermaSins, now 600/smite monks. Good luck getting your hard mode dungeon books filled in without those guys. Oh..and those who do the DTSC...it's gonna be harder to maintain those town ownerships...you might actually have to start playing AB again.

It's getting really old the b!tching by people who choose to farm or speed run dungeons vs those who don't. Farming is NOT hard..it doesn't take a genius to use a skill bar. Nor is speedclear. I've seen a lot of idiots successfully farm just about anything. The problem is not the skill, it's choice of how you use it. If you don't want to use a runner, fine....hnh it yourself or go pugstyle, but ...expect to be a little poorer in game than the rest of the crowd and take a bit longer to get the stuff you want in the long run. But for the LOVE of Balthazar, please quit screwing it for the rest of us who enjoy getting things done a lil faster and easier. IMO...Anet needs to keep balance in PVP arenas and leave the PVE world alone because if it ruins the game any further than it has...no one is gonna want to play it now or any future version, no matter how pretty the graphics are.

Oh..and good luck to the survivors, you guys will especially need it.

Firstly, run to an outpost? I lolled. H&H can clear HM dungeons just fine too... more lols. Survivors? Got plenty of them, no permasins in sight... what are you smoking? Just because you're lazy and unable to play without a win button, don't assume everyone else is equally incompetent. I guess I'll be waiting a long time for that moment of clarity.

UnChosen · Dec 15, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

People in guild never have "moments of clarity"....I mean some people still say DoA is perfect even though its completely empty and many guilds doesn't even want to do that area unless they're extremely bored and have lots of free time.

Kate Monster · Dec 15, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

The problem is not the skill, nor laziness. It is CHOICE and use of skill bar. If someone wants to do something faster or easier, why shouldn't they. No one is stopping anyone from doing it the old fashioned way. But why should the old-fashioned gamers hold back those who like to do things differently. (FYI I don't need runners, but they make things convenient, big deal and wtf..."a win button"..nice try..but the personal attack was stupid and a pathetic low shot...showing your Kungfu is not strong. :P) Back on topic..far be it from me or anyone to tell someone else how they should play be allowed to play the game.

Anet is on a downward spiral of self destructiveness it if continues to nerf skills just because some gamers dont like how other gamers use them. Any 8 skills can be turned into a god-like bar. So unless they want to nerf every skill in the game, they need to rethink the nerfs.

If Anet wants to fix the state of things..they need to up the game. Keep the skills, hell even revert the skills, but stop nerfing them. Instead...make the monsters harder....give us a new level if you find even hard mode too easy. Give us God Mode...level 50 bosses with new challenges, make us use those same skills and try to make new omgawd skills bars.

I mean this game is 4 years old now and getting older. Do you think after 4 years of playing the same game..people actually want to do the old-fashioned method of getting through it. Get real.

sthpaw · Dec 15, 2009, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Monster

I hope that if and when SF does get nerfed, there will be a moment of clarity or rather an "oh sh!t" moment for all those who complained about it..or rather b!tched when they realize that they shot themselves fatally in the foot. Because with the loss of SF..yeah...the dungeon speedclears will fade..but then again..so will all the outpost runners and faction providers. Uhoh..did someone forget that those lil guys & gals you paid or tipped to get you your EOTN tour of outposts so you could get your armor, sunglasses, dread masks, etc also use SF. How much will you b!tch then when you actually have to walk your butts there with your crappy h-n-h crew. The same goes for the other elite skills on the potential chopping block. First PermaSins, now 600/smite monks. Good luck getting your hard mode dungeon books filled in without those guys. Oh..and those who do the DTSC...it's gonna be harder to maintain those town ownerships...you might actually have to start playing AB again.

It's getting really old the b!tching about people who choose to farm or speed run dungeons vs those who don't. Farming is NOT hard..it doesn't take a genius to use a skill bar. Nor is speedclear. I've seen a lot of idiots successfully farm just about anything. The problem is not the skill, it's choice of how you use it. If you don't want to use a runner, fine....hnh it yourself or go pugstyle, but ...expect to be a little poorer in game than the rest of the crowd and take a bit longer to get the stuff you want in the long run. But for the LOVE of Balthazar, please quit screwing it for the rest of us who enjoy getting things done a lil faster and easier. IMO...Anet needs to keep balance in PVP arenas and leave the PVE world alone because if it ruins the game any further than it has...no one is gonna want to play it now or any future version, no matter how pretty the graphics are.

Oh..and good luck to the survivors, you guys will especially need it.

you can vanq DT in about 30mins with H/H so i dont see AB getting more faster faction then that.
seriously dont people feel like their cheating when they use shadow form?
i have never paid for a run for a dungeon besides CoF while i was afking doing other stuff, completed pretty much all elite areas without SF not talking big but i really feel dumb founded when people say using SF requires more skill then playing balanced, im not saying im a good player but i believe SF has made people terriable in this game.

Kaleban · Dec 15, 2009, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by athariel

almost every drop is useless because it's overfarmed by thousands of thousands of SF sins.

/facepalm

Pretty sure a devalued 15-22 req 9 Emerald Blade does the same damage now as when it first came out.

Hence, not useless. The only way your argument makes any sort of sense is if you're worried about e-peen fapping, which of course has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay balance.

When are you people going to learn the difference between an actual economy that is based on relative values connected to an item's actual usage/rarity (i.e. WoW's economy) and one that is cosmetic only and grafted on almost as an afterthought (i.e. Guild Wars dress up economy)?

Until you get the hint that all the farming in the world in GW, even if SF allowed Permasins to enter a zone, instagib everything in the entire instance in 10 seconds and zone back with hundreds of thousands in gold items and ectos does not change gameplay, then you're never going to understand the issue. All it does is make grind more efficient, which most would not consider "gameplay" anyways, more like work actually.

In fact, if ANet chnaged the armor system such that once you hit level 20, you could select any armor skin for your character (as in the PvP equipment screen, but without requiring ten thousand hours of point farming) the illusionary economy would explode but the gameplay would remain the same.

Trading imaginary items for fake pixel money is a means to get prestige skins, but is not what Guild WARS is all about, unless ANet allows one to conquer a Guild or win Alliance Faction by setting up trade embargoes and tariffs. There's a reason the game isn't called Trade Wars, or Economy Wars, or whatever.

If you still don't understand, basically a Hundred Blades Wammo is just as effective with a max collector's Ascalon Razor as he is with an Emerald Blade or Crystalline Sword. The only difference is a rare skin. The best way to acquire it is through farming, and the most efficient farm build is the best way to farm.

Since ANet's stated position is that they are not against farming, then nerfing SF for this reason is against their stated principles. If its about gameplay balance and SF tanking, I'd have to say the issue lies in poor class design (hence why only three classes ever routinely get groups, War/Ele/Mo) of the Assassin and others, combined with Elite area design that has nothing to offer classes like Mesmers and Rangers, and is simply composed of more HP and more damage, which your average player, up to and including elitist jerks, usually thwart by taking tanks, healers and damage mitigation. Which doesn't really include anyone but the Big 3.

Nerf SF, and the Sin vanishes, but not in the awesome about to kill you way, but the obscurity unused and marginalized way. ALTER SF such that it still has a use in Elite areas (some of the suggestions posted already are quite good, simple and elegant), and then the Big 3 have some competition. Then ANet just needs to figure out how to get the other marginal classes included in group rosters.

Nerel · Dec 15, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Monster

The problem is not the skill, nor laziness. It is CHOICE and use of skill bar. If someone wants to do something faster or easier, why shouldn't they.

I couldn't agree with this more, really, they need to add a skill that just kills every foe in the mission/dungeon/explorable area for you with a single activation... I mean, that would be faster and easier, I certainly don't want to waste my time playing the game... surely they should add such a skill, after all... it's about CHOICE, why shouldn't I want to do something faster or easier?

Yeah, sarcasm... don't bother replying.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 15, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Shadow Form: Enchantment. For 8 seconds all hostile spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. Your next attack does 10 000 damage and can't be blocked. Shadow form ends when you attack.

The funny part is, is that this version would actually be more balanced than the current form.

Abedeus · Dec 15, 2009, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

The funny part is, is that this version would actually be more balanced than the current form.

Not really. You could just move in groups of 8, killing 8 monsters at the same time. Arcane Echo it if you are afraid of dying. Also, it would make killing bosses like Abaddon, Mallyx, Shiro or Dhuum stupidly easy.