Curse

Dervish Kid · Dec 12, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

According to search function:
Time to take Obisidan Flesh and the Carebear out of hibernation..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

I hope dervs and paragons get a buff in the update.
Also, elementalists need a functionality change to intensity to promote them in high end areas.

Agreed. SF, is just way to easy to use. Kind of takes the fun out of the game.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 12, 2009, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

But it's really not that uncommon. I don't spend much time farming for items, so I'm not going to be able to recall build names, but how about builds for multiple professions that allow 1 person to take 7 leechers into "A Time for Heroes", they run past everything and kill the boss in about a minute or so? How about the glint warrior and ele builds that allowed fast core farming (I actually did this one to make gold to give to my kids as an extra x-mas present)? How about the dozens ofchest running builds that allow you to use high-end chests without killing any monsters in the area? There are many more. The only difference is that SF can be used for more that just one area (but by no means all areas) whereas many of these builds listed above were area-specific.

Look, if you, or anyone can come up with a real solution that will keep this from happening over and over again, I'm all for it. but as it stands now, with or without SF, the build is king of GW and not the skill of the player.

And no point in this thread have I condoned other ridiculous builds.

SF just happens to be the one the thread is about, and happens to be the most dominant of the ridiculous builds atm

lishi · Dec 12, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Only a skillbar built around OF can do what OF can do... ad infinitum, insert Elite skill. Most classes have an "infini-build" and have been around longer, yet no hate is directed at them. Why? Someone answer me that.

Name me another class who can solo (or duo) 4horseman and maybe we can start having a discussion on what your direction of tought.

Quote:

And how do you keep SF up? With two other skills plus PvE and glyphs for e-management, whereas an OB Flesh Ele can do the same thing, with the same advantages, and actually be more resilient and better energy management. Stop trying to minimize the reality of the situation to suit your flawed arguments.

You keep up SF with your normal 4 pips of regen. You dont need anything else.

Here what is a SF tank better then a OF

1 Skill

You need only those skills

1 Swiftness
2 deadly paradox
3 SF

5 utility slot.

OF need

Swiftness
OB
Stoneflesh
Armor of earth
Mantra of Resolve (and with that you can say by by to your superior energy management)

Mobility

The jobs of pulling at normal movenment and the half speed is quite different i assure you.

Quote:

I had no problem farming Glacial Stones from Vaettirs with my Ele for example, no problems getting there, so what is your point? Prior to the Permasin build, every DoA tank was a Warrior or Ele with a perma OB Flesh build, yet no one complained about that. Same effect, a little slower because of the move speed on OB Flesh, but not by a lot given the density of foes in DoA and the environmental effects.

So as Dr. Cox would say, "Wrong wrong wrong wrong.... wrong wrong wrong wrong. You're wrong, you're wrong..."

Hello? like many people said (me between them) is farming is to the issue here there are a lot of farming build more efficient then SF.
Now, name me a build without shadow form who can even think of doing what those sin can do in FoW, UW, SoO etc etc etc

PS. I would also say that OF tanks are not only little slower, i myself playing perma can manage to ball up different group of enemy even if they are not near each other. With OF thanks it take quite longer.

Kaleban · Dec 12, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Hello? like many people said (me between them) is farming is to the issue here there are a lot of farming build more efficient then SF.
Now, name me a build without shadow form who can even think of doing what those sin can do in FoW, UW, SoO etc etc etc

To be honest I have no idea, I personally have never tried to solo or tank any elite dungeons with a permasin, although I am perfectly capable of doing so.

Unlike many in this thread who assume they know what's best for everyone else, I don't presume to tell others how they SHOULD play. If they want to solo tank Kathandrax, and there is a build that allows it, more power to them, no skin off my back. There choice to use or not makes no difference to me or my gaming experience.

As has been repeated ad nauseum, the point of contention is the Sin's ability to dominate and solo tank certain elite areas, but is it really a problem? I say no, because IF ANet nerfs SF, without doing something about the areas (which is a shortsighted and heavy handed approach anyways), then something else will replace SF and the cycle of speed clearing will continue.

If ANet really wanted to provide a solution, they'd do something like increase the rewards based on the variation in the party (scan on entry) or time spent doing the area, so a 8 Sin team speedclearing UW in 10 minutes would get bupkiss, compared to a balanced team taking two hours.

You must admit that the problem is not shadowform itself, but the inverse proportion of time taken versus reward earned. No matter what though, people will always look for the fastest build, simply because they want to maximize their rate of return on play time.

In light of that, it makes zero logical sense to hate on Shadow Form specifically, rather than a broad desire to see all farming builds nerfed.

kazjun · Dec 12, 2009, 05:37 AM // 05:37

I friend of mine has been wanting to kill duncan, but my main has already done him nm and hm. So I thought I'd just take another guy through and kill the bosses so we can go do duncan together. So, I log in see guys offering to do a slavers tour. Was tempting but what the hey, I hate those summit btards and want to kill them.

So I grab my necro and her 3 necro buddies and H/H rand and thommis. After about an hour killing everything, I got a whole bunch of white crap, a req13 gold (from a locked chest), a diamond from thommis and an onyx from rand. Now, I went just to kill stuff, and I only really care about titles or anything on my warrior, so didn't really care about drops or points. I crossed the bosses off my list, so I was happy enough.

But if I was looking for good drops, well I can't imagine doing this over and over again till I got a anything of worth. Its just too slow. I'd either just not do it and farm elsewhere, or I'd use a perma/600/smite to do it. Nerf them, I can can see just about all the dungeons becoming like DOA. That is, dead to all but guild teams. Well, unless some other gimmick comes anyway. But it certainly won't be balancedway.

UnChosen · Dec 12, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I friend of mine has been wanting to kill duncan, but my main has already done him nm and hm. So I thought I'd just take another guy through and kill the bosses so we can go do duncan together. So, I log in see guys offering to do a slavers tour. Was tempting but what the hey, I hate those summit btards and want to kill them.

So I grab my necro and her 3 necro buddies and H/H rand and thommis. After about an hour killing everything, I got a whole bunch of white crap, a req13 gold (from a locked chest), a diamond from thommis and an onyx from rand. Now, I went just to kill stuff, and I only really care about titles or anything on my warrior, so didn't really care about drops or points. I crossed the bosses off my list, so I was happy enough.

But if I was looking for good drops, well I can't imagine doing this over and over again till I got a anything of worth. Its just too slow. I'd either just not do it and farm elsewhere, or I'd use a perma/600/smite to do it. Nerf them, I can can see just about all the dungeons becoming like DOA. That is, dead to all but guild teams. Well, unless some other gimmick comes anyway. But it certainly won't be balancedway.

QFT. I don't mind exclusivity, but at least do it RIGHT by making the reward balanced as well.

Arduin · Dec 12, 2009, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

QFT. I don't mind exclusivity, but at least do it RIGHT by making the reward balanced as well.

Like putting a rare and expensive weapon (Voltaic Spear) or crafting material (Onyx) in that chest, only to see it plummet in price because they get farmed that much.

But that's more of a problem of an aging game, to be honest.

Axeman002 · Dec 12, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

ahhh man my Sf wont vanquish the rest of tyria for me...ahh i tell u what ill make a 600/smite team to do that for me...but ofc there not godmode skills.........

reaper with no name · Dec 12, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

To be honest I have no idea, I personally have never tried to solo or tank any elite dungeons with a permasin, although I am perfectly capable of doing so.

Unlike many in this thread who assume they know what's best for everyone else, I don't presume to tell others how they SHOULD play. If they want to solo tank Kathandrax, and there is a build that allows it, more power to them, no skin off my back. There choice to use or not makes no difference to me or my gaming experience.

As has been repeated ad nauseum, the point of contention is the Sin's ability to dominate and solo tank certain elite areas, but is it really a problem? I say no, because IF ANet nerfs SF, without doing something about the areas (which is a shortsighted and heavy handed approach anyways), then something else will replace SF and the cycle of speed clearing will continue.

If ANet really wanted to provide a solution, they'd do something like increase the rewards based on the variation in the party (scan on entry) or time spent doing the area, so a 8 Sin team speedclearing UW in 10 minutes would get bupkiss, compared to a balanced team taking two hours.

You must admit that the problem is not shadowform itself, but the inverse proportion of time taken versus reward earned. No matter what though, people will always look for the fastest build, simply because they want to maximize their rate of return on play time.

In light of that, it makes zero logical sense to hate on Shadow Form specifically, rather than a broad desire to see all farming builds nerfed.

Farming is not a problem. Farming builds are, by their very nature, specialized for particular areas. They fail if you take them outside of those areas.

SF is not a farming build. It is an invincibility build. It just so happens that it's also great for farming. Invincibility is bad.

SF is the worst offender. Therefore, it recieves the most hate.

And yes, SF being able to solo everything is bad, because it removes the need for any other professions. Anet went to a lot of trouble programming all those other professions. Do you really think that a mechanic which makes them completely redundant is good for the game? Do you really think a skill that makes all those hundreds of monsters practically non-existent is good for the game? Do you really think that a skill which makes the entire game a joke is good for it?

No, it's not. SF was a mistake. In no other multiplayer game in history has such imbalance ever been tolerated. Shadow Form makes the entirety of the game meaningless. As long as SF exists, the vast majority of the game mechanics within it might as well not be there. It needs to be nerfed, for the good of the game. That's all there is to it.

Kaleban · Dec 12, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Farming is not a problem. Farming builds are, by their very nature, specialized for particular areas. They fail if you take them outside of those areas.

SF is not a farming build. It is an invincibility build. It just so happens that it's also great for farming. Invincibility is bad.

The problem with this argument is that you all keep re-defining SF as "invincibility." There are plenty of skills in the game that can easily nullify it, case in point, why are there no SF Sins in PvP? If you want to have a discussion, then you all must realize that the mechanics of SF are NO different from OF, VwK, 55/600, etc.

Quote:

SF is the worst offender. Therefore, it recieves the most hate.

It receives the most hate because it replaced all the traditional "invinci-builds" such as OB Flesh Warriors and Eles. The hate is not because its unfair or morally bankrupt, but because those players no longer get picked, because the Meta changed. Its simple envy/jealousy.

Quote:

And yes, SF being able to solo everything is bad, because it removes the need for any other professions. Anet went to a lot of trouble programming all those other professions. Do you really think that a mechanic which makes them completely redundant is good for the game? Do you really think a skill that makes all those hundreds of monsters practically non-existent is good for the game? Do you really think that a skill which makes the entire game a joke is good for it?

Do you really think that a Sin can solo the whole game? If you do, you're wildly off base and absolutely mistaken. Before SF, the Sin as a member of a group anywhere was practically non-existent, just as Mesmers before CoP, or Smiters with RoJ. Now the one skill that gets it invited is being decried by a whiny minority as unfair. What arrogance...

Quote:

No, it's not. SF was a mistake. In no other multiplayer game in history has such imbalance ever been tolerated. Shadow Form makes the entirety of the game meaningless. As long as SF exists, the vast majority of the game mechanics within it might as well not be there. It needs to be nerfed, for the good of the game. That's all there is to it.

SF makes the Sin have a purpose in groups, where it did not before. The game is not broken or worse off, the only possible way that would be true is if every player in the game was rolling nothing but SF Sins, which is extremely far from reality.

The mechanics of end game content dictate there will be certain ways that are more efficient to beat it. SF is not the cause, it is a symptom of the playerbase which is sick of mediocre rewards for the time investment. I DON'T want to slog through an area for two to three hours to get a gemstone I could have bought at the trader for less than a plat by farming with any character in noob areas for crafting material drops. I DON'T want Shadow Form nerfed, just as many other Sin players, who were never able to get groups feel the same.

Why should ANet listen to a vocal minority such as the SF haters, when the vast majority of gamers either don't care about SF because they realize it doesn't affect their gameplay, or want it in as an option to mess around with?

The SF haters are not a big enough group to support ANet, should they decide to side with the hardcore elitists who believe gameplay exclusion is the right thing, despite the fact that both casual and hardcore payed the same price for the game.

This isn't a job or career, there's no corporate ladder to climb, those that argue for exclusion and the rights of the hardcore 1337 are missing the simple fact that this is a game. You want exclusion, go play on Wall Street, and leave us casual "n00bs" to our fun please.

HBlix · Dec 12, 2009, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipknotOFA

Just cause people CHOOSE not to use SF doesnt make them bad players. SF needs to be nerfed cause this game isnt suppose to be soulable elite areas arent suppose to be easy the ecomony is dieng Duhr .. The ecomony has always been bad in Guildwars everyone knows it.

Took guildwars about 3 years to get a some what descent ecomony If you want to solo stuff I might suggest rohan or perfect world maybe asda story or Runes of Magic :S

Way to completely fail to read the post you quoted.

Mustache Mayhem · Dec 12, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I'll admit the speed clears using bu are pretty easy.. but look these guys spending 12-16k a run to clean fendi's, bu on 3 levels.. and though they are bound to the wiki letter for letter- it's still equates to fun for them.. you want to take that away and what are they going to do then? you want the community to die off even more?

anything harder and your looking at alot of peeps with a chance to get something good in the game, finding they can't run any other kind of tank.. for guys like me, who can't stand the wiki because it's basically inefficient if you have any sort of real skills.. it doesn't matter- I use assassin and rit as my main farmers because it's simply fast.. I really don't see your point besides principle of having the skill in the game.. but it's there along with all the pve only skills, let the new players catch up with us, who cares

on another note just to rage you sf ranters, who obviously don't farm at all.. look what dropped for me this morning!

YTMNDead · Dec 12, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

i dont like to discuss but i will just put a list of facts about SF here and everybody here just take your conclusions
1-Any skill that allow a player to solo a lot of 8-man dungeon,missions or area in hard mode is by any mean overpowered
2-SF is more easy to manage than the old OF tanks and better because that made OF obsolete
3-SF made the sins tanks,farmers,runners and not damage dealers,since a little part of GW recognizes the true power(sadly the rest think sin without SF is a suicidal front liner and prefer Eles) of a sin apparently will be unwanted
in PUGs after the nerf
4-That "Who want SF nerfed is a loser noob who dont know how to use it!!11" is nonsense
5-GW had your better moments before this SF rush
6-Who dont like SF just /cheer and who like just /cry because 40 pages(and up) of discussion will not change nothing

Esprit · Dec 12, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustache Mayhem

on another note just to rage you sf ranters, who obviously don't farm at all.. look what dropped for me this morning!

You forgot to mention how many boring and monotonous hours it took you to get that drop. Saying you are a SF farmer is equivalent to saying you have no life.

Shadow Form needs to go, I'll be glad when it is changed.

JONO51 · Dec 12, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

All these cries of jealousy are hilarious. After 4 years, there are very few items of worth left, and so theres items that anyone can get and items that are far out of the reach of sf-ers/normal players. Not only that, but lowering the prices of things that were previously fairly rare has removed any 1337ness you think you had.

Now I expect to be slammed down as elitist, because obviously anyone with more money than an sf-er is an elitist and anyone with less money is a jealous noob.

ThomOfDeath · Dec 12, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

All these cries of jealousy are hilarious. After 4 years, there are very few items of worth left, and so theres items that anyone can get and items that are far out of the reach of sf-ers/normal players. Not only that, but lowering the prices of things that were previously fairly rare has removed any 1337ness you think you had.

Now I expect to be slammed down as elitist, because obviously anyone with more money than an sf-er is an elitist and anyone with less money is a jealous noob.

True. In the start of Guild Wars, Obsidian Armor was for the very elite people. Then people said like: Wow, you've OBSIDIAN ARMOR?!
Now, sometimes I see people say: Ooh pretty nice, I might get myself in a few days then.
Doesn't that say enough that a skill, made the elite things way too easy to get? Many people would disagree with me, but if an elite area like Underworld and dungeons like SoO can be done in little time with as basic two skills and a consumable, then it surely needs to be nerfed. I just still don't understand why it took so long for them to come to that decision.
But all this saying, doesn't mean I don't use a perma sin to farm. But I don't do it because I really like it etc, but because everybody else uses it. When UWSC was still possible, I tended to go with FoWSC because it wasn't a bunch full of perma sins, but there were actually still some of a team which don't fully exist of perma sins using sliver armor.
So what I try to say is: don't you think it also will be more fun, to have Shadow Form gone? It'll be of course more difficult, but admit. Imo, the more difficult, the funnier it is.

Mustache Mayhem · Dec 12, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

You forgot to mention how many boring and monotonous hours it took you to get that drop. Saying you are a SF farmer is equivalent to saying you have no life.

Shadow Form needs to go, I'll be glad when it is changed.

hehe you can't comprehend how I do it.. thats <45 min run and you won't find it on the wiki.. I'll admit I put some time into perfecting that run.. but having quit gw as many times as I have.. nothing too steep

some peeps like to farm, I can't stand to trade, to me that's boring.. I did the same with the vs run here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trGo-4jn61Q&fmt=22

what's so great about this game.. you can do things people like you can't possibly even understand.. you think it took hours XD

Mustache Mayhem · Dec 12, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

well shouldn't be so harsh.. that's pretty mean and I'm not usually mean

just sf is used by alot of peeps who I know are really good.. hate when people who don't farm, chime in on a thread that has to do with farming

like if you hang in any district with a dungeon, you'll see just how many sf farmers their actually are.. and then there's the really good players who exploit it to the full potential

like that fendi run can be done with a 600 also.. it's just harder to do.. I think they should keep it in the game, my opinion anyway

Reformed · Dec 12, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomOfDeath

Doesn't that say enough that a skill, made the elite things way too easy to get?

You think SF did that on it's own? Try XTH, Nicholas and RR while it lasted. It's pointless to blame a build when Anet implemented ways to make mountains of free money for minimal effort.

UnChosen · Dec 12, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The mechanics of end game content dictate there will be certain ways that are more efficient to beat it. SF is not the cause, it is a symptom of the playerbase which is sick of mediocre rewards for the time investment. I DON'T want to slog through an area for two to three hours to get a gemstone I could have bought at the trader for less than a plat by farming with any character in noob areas for crafting material drops. I DON'T want Shadow Form nerfed, just as many other Sin players, who were never able to get groups feel the same.

Why should ANet listen to a vocal minority such as the SF haters, when the vast majority of gamers either don't care about SF because they realize it doesn't affect their gameplay, or want it in as an option to mess around with?

The SF haters are not a big enough group to support ANet, should they decide to side with the hardcore elitists who believe gameplay exclusion is the right thing, despite the fact that both casual and hardcore payed the same price for the game.

Bolded for truth. Also, all those people complaining also does NOT support any sort of a community in the game either because most of them never touch pugging with a ten foot pole. So they take this "I already got my guild so screw you" attitude. Turning the game into guild/friend groups only is a bad idea no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

If ANet really wanted to provide a solution, they'd do something like increase the rewards based on the variation in the party (scan on entry) or time spent doing the area, so a 8 Sin team speedclearing UW in 10 minutes would get bupkiss, compared to a balanced team taking two hours.

You must admit that the problem is not shadowform itself, but the inverse proportion of time taken versus reward earned. No matter what though, people will always look for the fastest build, simply because they want to maximize their rate of return on play time.

In light of that, it makes zero logical sense to hate on Shadow Form specifically, rather than a broad desire to see all farming builds nerfed.

Exactly.