Curse

manitoba1073 · Dec 11, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

A simple question which seems to be ignored in this argument. Do you feel that Anet ever intended for Elite areas to be cleared in less than 15 minutes? And if not, can you blame them for either modifying those areas, the monster AI, or a skill combination that causes this imbalance?

Actually Anet never intended any kind time limit requirement for any zone. They did however underestimate the ability of several players being able to refine to such a min/max ability. So to simply answer your question with a yes or no answer is obviously impossible. They did however go heres an area, heres skills of any combination, go at it however you want. Whether it be solo or in a group of any number of ppl upto the allowable max number of ppl for that area.

Yes I can blame Anet for going about things the wrong way to fix what the real problems are ecspecially when they were given the way to fix the problems numerous ways that wouldnt screw any one over.

To Chicken To Die · Dec 11, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

No matter HOW the SF haters whine about how SF is unfair, what it comes down to is it has zero effect on your gameplay.

This made me lol.

What do you think the price of a e-blade. Frog scepter, Obi edge etc etc etc Would have been without any Speed clears?
Why would I even bother doing UW for small rewards while spending hours?

Golgotha · Dec 11, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

A simple question which seems to be ignored in this argument. Do you feel that Anet ever intended for Elite areas to be cleared in less than 15 minutes? And if not, can you blame them for either modifying those areas, the monster AI, or a skill combination that causes this imbalance?

I agree that they certainly did not intend for such things to occur. They introduced far too many skills, making them impossible to balance accordingly. Allowing three PvE only skills is overkill as well. I'm not against buffing areas or mobs at all, I'm just against needlessly nerfing skills that are not causing issues other than in a handful of specific areas that can easily be balanced against it's prominent use.

Trust me, I'm not one of the pro-SF'ers who want it around for my own gain, I don't even do UWSC's. I have a Sin, who never uses SF unless I'm speedbooking Guildmates. I think it's a very good profession that unfortunately has never been part of a meta before SF.

I do think there need to be changes to keep SF from being such an overpowered skill in elite areas -- these are the places where the most money is made as well as the most amount of PUGs. I just don't agree that these should be changes to the skill itself.

lishi · Dec 11, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I agree that they certainly did not intend for such things to occur. They introduced far too many skills, making them impossible to balance accordingly. Allowing three PvE only skills is overkill as well. I'm not against buffing areas or mobs at all, I'm just against needlessly nerfing skills that are not causing issues other than in a handful of specific areas that can easily be balanced against it's prominent use.

Trust me, I'm not one of the pro-SF'ers who want it around for my own gain, I don't even do UWSC's. I have a Sin, who never uses SF unless I'm speedbooking Guildmates. I think it's a very good profession that unfortunately has never been part of a meta before SF.

I do think there need to be changes to keep SF from being such an overpowered skill in elite areas -- these are the places where the most money is made as well as the most amount of PUGs. I just don't agree that these should be changes to the skill itself.

That false, maybe there are about 800 skills on the game, but most of them are so bad that the balance need only made on a small set of them.

And only a blind man would have not see what kinda of build would have born from buffing shadow form to 34 second(the first buff)

It is a shame that assassin where never really liked as pugs, they need to rebalance skills so they can be more pug friendly.(so they need to rework mesmer too).

lishi · Dec 11, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Wow really? I typed all that out and thats what you come away with? I spelled it out for you!

There are 8 skills. SF is more powerful in certain respects than OF. Just like all skills have varying degrees of power, if they did not, then making "builds" would be pointless!

A Permasin's bar is taken up by sub-par e-management and skills to maintain SF and buff the one damage skill usually. An OF Ele on the other hand only needs about half the bar for "immunity" and e-management altogether, and thus can take more offensive skills, combined with higher natural energy.

I wish you all would stop acting like SF is somehow morally bankrupt, its not. Its the people in the game that suck.

Yet only a skillbar build around SF can do what SF can do.

And for the bolded part, i dont get it.
To make a build comparison we need to understand what we are comparing.

We are making a comparison of a assassin soloer for a speed clear?

Its simple OF can't and SF can.

We are making a comparison of a tanking build?

SF is much better because you only need to keep that up while for OF you many other skill, leaving a lot of slots for utility. Not that since you are not slowed an SF tank can ball up enemy much faster the OF one.

We are making a comparison of a farming build?

Well i would say both suck compared to a 600/smite but if we really what make the comparison then SF have much more flexibility since you can actually reach farming place where other can't.

Kaleban · Dec 12, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

This made me lol.

What do you think the price of a e-blade. Frog scepter, Obi edge etc etc etc Would have been without any Speed clears?
Why would I even bother doing UW for small rewards while spending hours?

And here is the crux of the problem. You equate gameplay with Barbiefication. You can play the game just fine without all that extra crap, which means that SF and farming is a non-gameplay issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

This is again, terrible logic.

If skills have varying degrees of power, they actually make the whole build creation process useless...since it is better to just put the 8 strongest skills on your bar and rape face.

How is it terrible logic to suggest that skills have varying degrees of power? You do know of Elite skills yes? You must since we're discussing Shadow Form.

What is stronger, Death Blossom or Twisting Fangs? Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. WITHOUT varied skills, that have varied effects, there would be no such thing as builds in the first place, since everyone would always run the same.

You should learn how logic works before invoking its name.

FengShuiDove · Dec 12, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

It is a shame that assassin where never really liked as pugs, they need to rebalance skills so they can be more pug friendly.(so they need to rework mesmer too).

No, actually, the skills are fine and quite pug friendly. Assassin can be brutally effective in most any team setup. I won't list the builds, because we all know what basic flavor they are, but Sins can really dish it out. What needs to change is the community opinion. Mostly the reason Sins are hated is because of the opening months of Factions before they were properly used. Now, well-informed people realize how strong they can be, but the idiots running double echo Firestorm in pugs haven't caught on yet. Moreover, pugs seem to think Warriors should always be strong-like-bear tanks. Essentially, the community at large doesn't understand the DPS and aggro management capabilities of an offensively suited physical, be it Assassin, Warrior, even Ranger and Dervish.

If SF is nerfed, I hope that opinion is changed and Sins are given credit where they are due. They deserve better than obscurity, with or without the existence of Shadow Form.

Kaleban · Dec 12, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Yet only a skillbar build around SF can do what SF can do.

Only a skillbar built around OF can do what OF can do... ad infinitum, insert Elite skill. Most classes have an "infini-build" and have been around longer, yet no hate is directed at them. Why? Someone answer me that.

Quote:

SF is much better because you only need to keep that up while for OF you many other skill, leaving a lot of slots for utility. Not that since you are not slowed an SF tank can ball up enemy much faster the OF one.

And how do you keep SF up? With two other skills plus PvE and glyphs for e-management, whereas an OB Flesh Ele can do the same thing, with the same advantages, and actually be more resilient and better energy management. Stop trying to minimize the reality of the situation to suit your flawed arguments.

Quote:

Well i would say both suck compared to a 600/smite but if we really what make the comparison then SF have much more flexibility since you can actually reach farming place where other can't.

I had no problem farming Glacial Stones from Vaettirs with my Ele for example, no problems getting there, so what is your point? Prior to the Permasin build, every DoA tank was a Warrior or Ele with a perma OB Flesh build, yet no one complained about that. Same effect, a little slower because of the move speed on OB Flesh, but not by a lot given the density of foes in DoA and the environmental effects.

So as Dr. Cox would say, "Wrong wrong wrong wrong.... wrong wrong wrong wrong. You're wrong, you're wrong..."

mrvrod · Dec 12, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

There is one constant in every guru argument I've seen regarding Guild Wars:

Whether it was sklls & builds, runs & farms, or the BMP and it's sale after those of us who "earned" it.

Every argument seems to boil down to two groups: The ones arguing for exclusivity and the limitation of content to the player base, and the ones arguing for inclusivity and no limitation of content to the player base.

In the world of Guild Wars, I will always side with inclusion rather than exclusion. I had hoped the "members only" mentality had died with slavery.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 12, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

There is one constant in every guru argument I've seen regarding Guild Wars:

Whether it was sklls & builds, runs & farms, or the BMP and it's sale after those of us who "earned" it.

Every argument seems to boil down to two groups: The ones arguing for exclusivity and the limitation of content to the player base, and the ones arguing for inclusivity and no limitation of content to the player base.

In the world of Guild Wars, I will always side with inclusion rather than exclusion. I had hoped the "members only" mentality had died with slavery.

No, that's what a lot of people want to make it out to be. Mainly the people who support ridiculously overpowered skills.

People who support "I WIN" buttons act like anyone who disagrees with the I WIN button is only doing it because they don't want anyone else experiencing content, when in fact, it has very little to do with that. It usually has more to do with at least TRYING to retain some semblance of balance between builds, rather than one skill/build that rapes the face of everything in the game, aside from 3-4 different monsters that have a special skill that counters it.

mrvrod · Dec 12, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

No, that's what a lot of people want to make it out to be. Mainly the people who support ridiculously overpowered skills.

People who support "I WIN" buttons act like anyone who disagrees with the I WIN button is only doing it because they don't want anyone else experiencing content, when in fact, it has very little to do with that. It usually has more to do with at least TRYING to retain some semblance of balance between builds, rather than one skill/build that rapes the face of everything in the game, aside from 3-4 different monsters that have a special skill that counters it.

But you're trying to put the genie back in the bottle. This game, because of the overload of skills, is horribly broken. It hasn't been anything but Build Wars since Prophecies. The only way to fix this game is a complete overhaul of the combat system, and that'll never happen.

We're arguing over SF now, but even if this skill were completely removed, another build will take it's place and we'll be back here again. As it was with unlimited minions, Ursan, Discord, ad nauseum...

I think there's one area you and I would agree on, I do hate that this game is completely reliant on specific builds to get anything accomplished, but that can no longer be fixed.

To Chicken To Die · Dec 12, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And here is the crux of the problem. You equate gameplay with Barbiefication. You can play the game just fine without all that extra crap, which means that SF and farming is a non-gameplay issue.

.

Well I enjoy the game more if the stuff I have is wanted. Human nature to show off greater achievements. So yes SF is a issue. Stop making excuses. Even a donkey can see that SF changes the whole gameplay for a long time now.

It has been the same crap over and over. Every weapon gets farmed and then drops it's value to merch food.

Try find a team to play the GAME and not simple button 1 and 2 smashing and yet be rewarded for the rarest weapons. For that people join Pugs with speed clear builds ( can't blame them). And therefore no normal gameplay is possible.

mrvrod · Dec 12, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

Well I enjoy the game more if the stuff I have is wanted. Human nature to show off greater achievements. So yes SF is a issue. Stop making excuses. Even a donkey can see that SF changes the whole gameplay for a long time now.

It has been the same crap over and over. Every weapon gets farmed and then drops it's value to merch food.

Try find a team to play the GAME and not simple button 1 and 2 smashing and yet be rewarded for the rarest weapons. For that people join Pugs with speed clear builds ( can't blame them). And therefore no normal gameplay is possible.

But they've already addressed the UWSC issue as it pertains to SF with a tweak of the dungeon. Any other SC can be addressed in the same manner. As far as "normal gameplay" see my above post, that hasn't existed for years now.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 12, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

But you're trying to put the genie back in the bottle. This game, because of the overload of skills, is horribly broken. It hasn't been anything but Build Wars since Prophecies. The only way to fix this game is a complete overhaul of the combat system, and that'll never happen.

We're arguing over SF now, but even if this skill were completely removed, another build will take it's place and we'll be back here again. As it was with unlimited minions, Ursan, Discord, ad nauseum...

I think there's one area you and I would agree on, I do hate that this game is completely reliant on specific builds to get anything accomplished, but that can no longer be fixed.

Of course Build Wars isn't 100% counterable. There will always be a build that is slightly better than most others. That is where SF varies though...it isn't slightly better, it is invulnerability. Just because perfect balance is impossible to achieve, doesn't mean that ANet should just throw up their hands, say f*ck it, and throw in a skill that completely destroys any balance between the skills.

At least before SF, there were different builds to solo UW. But it also isn't only UW...you can take an SF sin and completely destroy any game mechanics (like having a perma tank huge groups in Dzagonar Bastion). Not only does it break build balance, it also makes a mockery of some game mechanics and mission. SF is the only skill that can survive indefinitely against 90% of the enemies in the game.

mrvrod · Dec 12, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Of course Build Wars isn't 100% counterable. There will always be a build that is slightly better than most others. That is where SF varies though...it isn't slightly better, it is invulnerability. Just because perfect balance is impossible to achieve, doesn't mean that ANet should just throw up their hands, say f*ck it, and throw in a skill that completely destroys any balance between the skills.

At least before SF, there were different builds to solo UW. But it also isn't only UW...you can take an SF sin and completely destroy any game mechanics (like having a perma tank huge groups in Dzagonar Bastion). Not only does it break build balance, it also makes a mockery of some game mechanics and mission. SF is the only skill that can survive indefinitely against 90% of the enemies in the game.

But Discord does the same thing. Take two people into any normal mode area, each with three discord necros, and you will steamroll everything. 2 Man Discord works in many HM areas as well. You only need 1 other human for this, eliminating the need for PuG's there as well. I don't have a SF sin, but over the last two days I did go with one into SoO. The SF sin may have been able to run through every group to the Justiclair, but it was still the responsibility of the group to kill everything at the end, and party wipes are still possible. On average, my 5-6 runs into that dungeon took about 20 min or more each time. While this is definitely an improvement, I wouldn't call it god-mode.

To Chicken To Die · Dec 12, 2009, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

But they've already addressed the UWSC issue as it pertains to SF with a tweak of the dungeon. Any other SC can be addressed in the same manner. As far as "normal gameplay" see my above post, that hasn't existed for years now.

Unlimited minions? Fixed. Ursan? Fixed. Discord? It has enough flaws so can it be considerd overpowerd? I think not (leave it with that statment cus it isn't for this thread)

And yes there will be a new build if SF gets nerfed. Cus other skills get buffed (If they never buffed SF then guru had 1 milioen threads less and what would you have used then to get money or weapons?) Probally 600/smite? Well you won't see the FoW/UW chest with it. You wouldn't see many chest at all. And those you will see will take an hour or more. That will make it a lot less intrested to do it 10 times a day.

And I can recall that GW was not so bad balanced when prophics came out. The only thing that really could be overpowerd then was the 55hp monk. But what do you know. They fixed it (sort of).

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 12, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

But Discord does the same thing. Take two people into any normal mode area, each with three discord necros, and you will steamroll everything. 2 Man Discord works in many HM areas as well. You only need 1 other human for this, eliminating the need for PuG's there as well. I don't have a SF sin, but over the last two days I did go with one into SoO. The SF sin may have been able to run through every group to the Justiclair, but it was still the responsibility of the group to kill everything at the end, and party wipes are still possible. On average, my 5-6 runs into that dungeon took about 20 min or more each time. While this is definitely an improvement, I wouldn't call it god-mode.

You don't need PuGs anywhere.

To be quite honest, PuGs actually make the game more difficult because PuGs are absolutely terrible at the game.

As for Discord...it is nowhere near as ridiculous as SF. I mean, at least it is still possible to die while using discordway.

The last part of your post, address what is so screwed about SF. A single player can go through an entire dungeon, by himself, and doesn't even need to kill anything. How does that not break the way the game was designed?

Kaleban · Dec 12, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

Well I enjoy the game more if the stuff I have is wanted. Human nature to show off greater achievements. So yes SF is a issue. Stop making excuses. Even a donkey can see that SF changes the whole gameplay for a long time now.

WHAT?! LOL. So SF is an issue because it makes the "1337" stuff more available. So you're mad because casual gamers have access to the same stuff 1337 players do? So you're for segregation and exclusion? Lame.

Quote:

It has been the same crap over and over. Every weapon gets farmed and then drops it's value to merch food.

NOT gameplay, hello?

Quote:

Try find a team to play the GAME and not simple button 1 and 2 smashing and yet be rewarded for the rarest weapons. For that people join Pugs with speed clear builds ( can't blame them). And therefore no normal gameplay is possible.

So what you're saying is that there were hundreds of players in 1337 zones before Permasins, and that Perma caused the death of the 1337 areas? Lol, or maybe its because all that's there are farmers that make it impossible to find groups, and therefore the only thing to do IS to farm?

Perhaps if you understood logic or causality, simple concepts such as these would not got over your head...

To Chicken To Die · Dec 12, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

WHAT?! LOL. So SF is an issue because it makes the "1337" stuff more available. So you're mad because casual gamers have access to the same stuff 1337 players do? So you're for segregation and exclusion? Lame.

NOT gameplay, hello?

So what you're saying is that there were hundreds of players in 1337 zones before Permasins, and that Perma caused the death of the 1337 areas? Lol, or maybe its because all that's there are farmers that make it impossible to find groups, and therefore the only thing to do IS to farm?

Perhaps if you understood logic or causality, simple concepts such as these would not got over your head...

Wow never saw so much crap at once. first try typing with words and not letters. And yes there were enough players in an area like ToA to make a decent group for UW.

Ugh not even going to comment more to someone that makes brainless coments like these

Perhaps if you understood logic or causality

Try to read and make sense.

mrvrod · Dec 12, 2009, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

You don't need PuGs anywhere.

To be quite honest, PuGs actually make the game more difficult because PuGs are absolutely terrible at the game.

As for Discord...it is nowhere near as ridiculous as SF. I mean, at least it is still possible to die while using discordway.

The last part of your post, address what is so screwed about SF. A single player can go through an entire dungeon, by himself, and doesn't even need to kill anything. How does that not break the way the game was designed?

But it's really not that uncommon. I don't spend much time farming for items, so I'm not going to be able to recall build names, but how about builds for multiple professions that allow 1 person to take 7 leechers into "A Time for Heroes", they run past everything and kill the boss in about a minute or so? How about the glint warrior and ele builds that allowed fast core farming (I actually did this one to make gold to give to my kids as an extra x-mas present)? How about the dozens ofchest running builds that allow you to use high-end chests without killing any monsters in the area? There are many more. The only difference is that SF can be used for more that just one area (but by no means all areas) whereas many of these builds listed above were area-specific.

Look, if you, or anyone can come up with a real solution that will keep this from happening over and over again, I'm all for it. but as it stands now, with or without SF, the build is king of GW and not the skill of the player.