Curse

The Drunkard · Dec 05, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

On the contrary, You and others have claimed it was invincible mode and nothing effects it, I showed you were wrong and have since been doing the BUT BUT BUT excuse.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

And exactly how many of those skills do monsters have in order to stop permasins from stomping all over elite areas/dungeons?

Ummm...yeah...

The point I'm trying to make is that few monsters in high-end areas have skills that can kill permasins and stop them abusing the skill. I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that I said nothing can get through SF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

And so called balancing a skill around a broken area also dont work either nor has it ever worked.

I'm not seeing logic here. UW has been out for three years, and yet the only complaints of it being "broken" before the big update was that the nps kept dying and f'ing up groups and that 4 horsemen is frustrating in HM. Go ahead and prove me wrong, but I haven't heard of UW as being broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

As far as the list I gave on skills that effect SF, you do realize there is more than 1 mob in UW right. Theres tons of things that could have been properly to fix the areas itself that would have put a end to the times of speed clears.

And here's where I disagree. You can either make the area harder for "balanced" groups and try to hit SF,with tweaking and introducing new monsters, or you can just nerf the skill and make the areas easier to give an incentive to play the area. Anet has already shown that they cannot counter SCs in the UW without adding a boss with rediculous HP, so I think removing permasins from having a high dps output would fix the problem. Adding a -33% damage clause to SF is pathetic with all of the pve skills out there augmenting it.

UnChosen · Dec 05, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Sorry, I haven't started posting much before Ursan, I'll keep the QQ alive

Anet did exactly this by adding skeletons to UW...and look what happened. The only reason people even play UW now is to get the new items, and most teams need a permasin for 4 horsemen. Balancing the game around a broken skill doesn't work and it never will.

I mean balancing it by making it easier for balanced pugs (and there are ways to do it without "dumbing down" the area), NOT making it even harder the way they're doing it now.

Balancing the game around a skill doesn't work, but neither does balancing the game around top "pro" guild/friend groups. All of the end game areas right now are designed in such a way that only the best of the best can get a decent reward out of it. Most pugs can never finish it, but those that actually do, it takes so long for like two ectos that it becomes completely pointless.

I might be the only one, but I think a pug group that is actually determined/decent enough to finish the area should get far more than two ectos for their 4 hours of work. But right now, the rewards seem to be worth it only for the most skillful play by the best guild/friend groups, and is completely discouraging to pugs just because they're not "efficient" enough.

I just don't believe in nerfing the skill BEFORE they solve the core problems, because they didn't do it for DoA either...and turned the area into a ghost town (once again).

Raven2201 · Dec 05, 2009, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

I mean balancing it by making it easier for balanced pugs (and there are ways to do it without "dumbing down" the area), NOT making it even harder the way they're doing it now.

Balancing the game around a skill doesn't work, but neither does balancing the game around top "pro" guild/friend groups. All of the end game areas right now are designed in such a way that only the best of the best can get a decent reward out of it. Most pugs can never finish it, but those that actually do, it takes so long for like two ectos that it becomes completely pointless.

I might be the only one, but I think a pug group that is actually determined/decent enough to finish the area should get far more than two ectos for their 4 hours of work. But right now, the rewards seem to be worth it only for the most skillful play by the best guild/friend groups, and is completely discouraging to pugs just because they're not "efficient" enough.

I just don't believe in nerfing the skill BEFORE they solve the core problems, because they didn't do it for DoA either...and turned the area into a ghost town (once again).

Of all the posts I believe I agree with this one the most.

Barrage · Dec 05, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Alright guys I am going to going to lay it out plain and simple, If they nerf every farm that actually gets you a fairly good chunk of money, this game will turn into complete and utter bull. Now, as a powertrader, I will be in fairly good standing no matter when happens. But, I fear that the gw economy will inflate to pre-eotn standards. Which for some I know that would sound fairly good. But I fear that it will go farther than that, after the additions to UW ectos have been going steadily up, this could send us back to 10-14 k per ecto, again good for some, but this could alienate the newbie / moderate player. I would say that, since all these additions were made to UW, to immediately up the ecto drop rate as well as the rare drops from the UW, FoW, and EotN end chests. This is just to keep ectos down as well as the rare drops, because really, for a 2 hour+ (no perma or 600) dungeon you should get a reward to make it wroth your while. Now, I say this under the assumption that this will be a nerf to TOTALLY make the skills/builds non-viable for farming, if they are still viable, disregard my entire post.
We'll just have to wait and see.

reaper with no name · Dec 05, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Its because a lot of people don't trust that Anet will actually fix those other problems, not after what happened with DoA and Ursan...

There were plenty of logical arguments predicting that DoA would become a ghost town if Anet just nerf Ursan without toning the place town, guess what? The predictions was true...

As for the "bullet wound", its not SF. SF is the bandaid, the "bullet wound" is gameplay and area that are designed to have crappy reward that are only worth it if you have a guild to do the area as fast as possible. The tumor is gimmicky design that prevents pugs from learning the area efficiently, while allowing "pro" guilds/friend teams to blow through the area with ease. Etc.

Its all those other problems that needs to be fixed or nerfing SF won't matter. It'll just chase like 99% of the player base away to solo farm, another speed clear, or just leave the game. And no, "they should just leave the game" is just as invalid as "don't like it, don't use it" as an argument.

If you fix the areas but don't nerf SF, people will continue to abuse SF, and there will no difference. If these people wanted to do these things in suboptimal ways they would do it already. Unless and until you nerf SF, changing the areas will have no effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

Lets finish your analogy "House" fashion.

This ER patient (Guild Wars), with the tumor (600/smite), anthrax (USWC), and bullet wound (SF), had all of these issues fixed, yet he died on the OR table after sowing him back up. Turns out, the bullet wound was preventing blood circulating to the tumor in the leg, once the wound was patched, blood returned and made the tumor grow uncontrollably. The Tumor had to be removed by amputating the leg (nerf farming). The Anthrax turns out to be a misdiagnosis caused by Leprosy (loot scaling) in the patient who had a defective immune system (titles), which was running wild from antibiotics (grind). Turns out the only thing keeping him alive was the bullet wound.

And yet, if you don't treat the bullet wound, he dies anyway. So, either way he's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed? In that case, why don't we try fixing the bullet wound anyway, on the off chance that there won't be this huge cascade effect, since those are possibilities (however likely they may be), while death from the bullet wound is a certainty unless it is treated. At worst, the effect is the same. At best, he might just live.

However, you win an internet for taking the metaphor into such awesome territory.

JimmyNeutron · Dec 05, 2009, 07:42 AM // 07:42

How about we nerf everything and BUFF Ursan again? Oh how I miss the days where I can play and watch TV 99% of the time.

One hand on buttons 1, 2, and 3, and other hand on the remote. Yeah, I know...I'm missing one hand for the crouch area and one hand for the cold beer.

That's why you have a biatch for right?

Arkantos · Dec 05, 2009, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Without SF (or something like it) there is NO way to effectively manage aggro of large mobs in HM elite areas (referes to DoA specifically). So If aggro in HM elite areas can't be managed, I advocate bringing back the really old school NO SCATTER from AoE in HM elite areas to try to at least kill the mobs BEFORE they BREAK aggro and WIPE the back line...

Sorry what?

A good warrior can effectively manage aggro in HM, and if your team is decent, they can pick off key enemies before the mob breaks aggro, and you should easily be able to kill the mob without trouble.

JONO51 · Dec 05, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyNeutron

How about we nerf everything and BUFF Ursan again? Oh how I miss the days where I can play and watch TV 99% of the time.

One hand on buttons 1, 2, and 3, and other hand on the remote. Yeah, I know...I'm missing one hand for the crouch area and one hand for the cold beer.

That's why you have a biatch for right?

lol I agree with this guy.

Tenebrae · Dec 05, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Another 2 "lol WTF is this guy thinking" argument to the list :
-Without SF (or something like it) there is NO way to effectively manage aggro of large mobs in HM elite areas.
-Fix the areas where SF can do its stuff and SC's and farm are done

Great..... lets now rework 90% of GW instead reworking 1 broken skill. Some ppl have abused SF so much that they dont recall using 2 hands in this game for so long ...... shame i wont be there to see all QQ ingame.

PS: The Reaper's "Balance" Scythe is swinging .....

Fay Vert · Dec 05, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

I just don't believe in nerfing the skill BEFORE they solve the core problems, because they didn't do it for DoA either...and turned the area into a ghost town (once again).

I agree with your point that the area needs balancing for normal pugs, but you have to consider that one of the reasons why UW is so broken at the moment is ANet's failed attempts to not balance SF by making UW much harder. So yeah, fix Broken Form AND rebalance the area to make it playable (quest completable) for normal players.

KingXelas · Dec 05, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

in time maybe we get a buff instead of a nerf. But that's unlikely.

Barrage · Dec 05, 2009, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingXelas

in time maybe we get a buff instead of a nerf. But that's unlikely.

Buffing?!?!?!? Skills?!?!?!?!? BLASPHEMY SIR.

KingXelas · Dec 05, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Buffing?!?!?!? Skills?!?!?!?!? BLASPHEMY SIR.

IRONY, Sir.

Golgotha · Dec 05, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Another 2 "lol WTF is this guy thinking" argument to the list :
-Without SF (or something like it) there is NO way to effectively manage aggro of large mobs in HM elite areas.
-Fix the areas where SF can do its stuff and SC's and farm are done

Great..... lets now rework 90% of GW instead reworking 1 broken skill. Some ppl have abused SF so much that they dont recall using 2 hands in this game for so long ...... shame i wont be there to see all QQ ingame.

PS: The Reaper's "Balance" Scythe is swinging .....

Okay, I'll bite...

They didn't have to nerf 55 monks to hell and back when they were the farming king, they simply added enchantment strips, pop-ups and mobs specifically placed to deter them. How would SF be any different than this? There is a long standing precedent for such methods. Nightmares, anyone? If there is a single, lone core skill that can completely shut down SF, the SC's should have never gotten to this point.

Where is SF an issue? UW and dungeons. These are considered to be high end areas, and as such should be buffed in order to prevent SF's dominance. The issue is that Anet doesn't seem to realize how easily it is to shut down and would much rather add elements that create more difficulty for balanced mobs (skeletons) while really adding nothing in the way of resistance for experience SC'ers. I liken this to me adding a moat around my house to deter burglars instead of simply locking my doors -- and eventually the burglars find the easy way in anyway since they aren't looking to go through the front door in the first place.

The game's been out for how many years now, with many areas never evolving. Prophecies can be steamrolled due to power-creep by way of the added campaigns and expansions. As such, depending on area many skills seem extremely overpowered. The problem is that these areas were never adjusted to combat such efficiency. I'm not suggesting that out-of-campaign skills be added, but there are simple adjustments that can be made to mobs to counter many metas. UW is no different. Skeletons were the first real hurdle the UW's had in a very, very long time. These were nullified by the community rather quickly because they were a square peg in a circle hole. Why try to outdamage a SF-sin when the greatest damage you can do to them is removing their ability to maintain SF? Anet continues to overthink themselves.

SF as a farming skill isn't overpowered. There aren't many areas outside of the high end where a player can make any significant money, and at least in UW it requires a full team. If you don't think Anet considers farming to be part of the game, then I'm sorry, you're delusional. Nerfing a skill across the board to neutralize it in a handful of areas is the definition of overboard. SF has earned a lot of hatred, much like Ursan before it, due to it's dominance in high end PvE. The difference is that one is easily countered.

FyrFytr998 · Dec 05, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Okay, I'll bite...

They didn't have to nerf 55 monks to hell and back when they were the farming king, they simply added enchantment strips, pop-ups and mobs specifically placed to deter them. How would SF be any different than this? There is a long standing precedent for such methods. Nightmares, anyone? If there is a single, lone core skill that can completely shut down SF, the SC's should have never gotten to this point.

And this is what I thought would be the end result. They started with the skeletons (maybe they should have added a crippling skill as well, lol). I just figured they would do something to nullify or at least hamper SC efforts while still giving players the ability to use SF (as is) in other areas.

Whatever, the writing is still on the wall. I have the utmost confidence that something new will come along. Anytime something gets nerfed, something else gets buffed, and thus a new uberleet build is born. About the only thing I truly wish comes down the pike is that as a gift to the faithful, ANET gives us 7 heroes the day GW comes out, lol.

narud · Dec 06, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

For those still saying SF should be left alone, go here: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:A...running_builds

Look to the left. No build should ever have that ability. Eotn is meant to be elite even in NM. One skill should not make 90% of it solo-able. On that note, look to the right.

600/smite and SF are way too powerful. They need to be nerfed immediately.

Golgotha · Dec 06, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by narud

For those still saying SF should be left alone, go here: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:A...running_builds

Look to the left. No build should ever have that ability. Eotn is meant to be elite even in NM. One skill should not make 90% of it solo-able. On that note, look to the right.

600/smite and SF are way too powerful. They need to be nerfed immediately.

So another calling for changes to the effect, rather than the cause.

Fay Vert · Dec 06, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Those skills ARE the cause

UnChosen · Dec 06, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Those skills ARE the cause

Nope this is the cause:

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Balancing the game around a skill doesn't work, but neither does balancing the game around top "pro" guild/friend groups. All of the end game areas right now are designed in such a way that only the best of the best can get a decent reward out of it. Most pugs can never finish it, but those that actually do, it takes so long for like two ectos that it becomes completely pointless.

I might be the only one, but I think a pug group that is actually determined/decent enough to finish the area should get far more than two ectos for their 4 hours of work. But right now, the rewards seem to be worth it only for the most skillful play by the best guild/friend groups, and is completely discouraging to pugs just because they're not "efficient" enough.

A majority of game contents are designed around grinding, but other than solo farming, none of the areas are designed for people to grind "normally" without using any sort of gimmick. You try to get all those titles using JUST "balanced" pugs in these end game areas, you won't finish them by the time Guild wars 3 comes out. That's the reason why so many people do gimmick speed clears....because it finally made those area worth it to do.

The reason why people do dungeon solos is because those areas are even WORSE than UW/DoA in terms of risk/reward ratio. 2 hours with balanced pugs for 2 diamonds...really? I just don't see how that kind of reward is balanced...

FyrFytr998 · Dec 07, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Nope this is the cause:

A majority of game contents are designed around grinding, but other than solo farming, none of the areas are designed for people to grind "normally" without using any sort of gimmick. You try to get all those titles using JUST "balanced" pugs in these end game areas, you won't finish them by the time Guild wars 3 comes out. That's the reason why so many people do gimmick speed clears....because it finally made those area worth it to do.

The reason why people do dungeon solos is because those areas are even WORSE than UW/DoA in terms of risk/reward ratio. 2 hours with balanced pugs for 2 diamonds...really? I just don't see how that kind of reward is balanced...

Lol. Agreed. Just for kicks I H/H some dungeons the other day. An onyx gemstone and a diamond were the most notables for my few hours of play. Lame.