Curse

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Also worth noting: we KNEW what issues they were working on. We knew it since.. what? November?

How come people are getting upset NOW for the lack of Mesmer buffs, when none was even in the plans for this update?

I wouldn't expect any more updates to involve all the professions available, they just don't have the resources to. It took them months to come up with this, go figure how long it would have taken if they also took Mesmers, Paragons and Dervishes into consideration.

Those are big and delicate issues that IMO require specific updates and intensive and dedicate efforts. I'm glad they didn't just resort on a couple random buff just to give a sign they care, and I hope those issues will be treated as they need to in the future.

Cuilan · Feb 23, 2010, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

How come people are getting upset NOW for the lack of Mesmer buffs, when none was even in the plans for this update?

From past updates and that nobody directly stated that what was mentioned will be the only things changed. We don't really know if they will dedicate any such update for mesmers, dervish, or paragons.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

From past updates and that nobody directly stated that what was mentioned will be the only things changed. We don't really know if they will dedicate any such update for mesmers, dervish, or paragons.

Actually, the last few notes from the devs showed just that: we had a list of the changes in the plans, and those were the only changes that materialized in the actual update.

Also, remember this is only half of the originally intended update. We got the other half in January.

Then again, what's left for them to work on? They have Mesmers, Dervishes and Paragons to work on next. Professions that are next to impossible to balance. So it will take time, but I'd be surprised if nothing happens at all.

upier · Feb 23, 2010, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Those are big and delicate issues that IMO require specific updates and intensive and dedicate efforts. I'm glad they didn't just resort on a couple random buff just to give a sign they care, and I hope those issues will be treated as they need to in the future.

So, what's wrong with people pointing out what needs to be looked at instead of just sitting around and hoping that they will?

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

They arnt as fast as other professions but they can still accomplish anything another profession can, even if it is a little slower.

As I stated before, we're talking about skill balance here, not area balance.

Your point of view:
Mesmer can do Northern Wall = cool! = Mesmer class balanced!

My point of view:
Mesmer can do Northern Wall slower than any other class, and Anything Mesmer Can Do... others can do better = Mesmer class underpowered

I do Vanquishes with 7 people in 8 man areas, 5 people in 6 man areas, and 3 people in 4 man areas. Technically speaking, this means a mesmer in the team can have empty skillbar and dance at the portal while the rest of the team does VQ. Does that mean mesmer class is OK and balanced? No. So what is your point of stating you can do VQ with build X? This is a skill balance thread. A skill balance thread. A skill balance thread. Not 'I can do this with WMo mending build'.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So, what's wrong with people pointing out what needs to be looked at instead of just sitting around and hoping that they will?

Pointing out is fine. Screaming like little kids isn't. You're not pointing out, you're complaining about a patch not containing buff that never were meant to be there.

This update WASN'T meanto to address those issues. NEVER was.

So, pointing out for FUTURE updates is fine - even though I'm sure they know better than anyone what needs to be done. Complaining for the current one is pointless. They absolutely CAN'T address EVERYTHING with a single patch. It's not like GW will be over next week.

So, while we're at it, why aren't they rebalancing the UW now? What are they doing for Codex Arena being unsuccessful? Where are the new costumes? Why no info about the 5th Year Anniversary? Why aren't there news about GW2 yet?

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Your point of view:
Mesmer can do Northern Wall = cool! = Mesmer class balanced!

My point of view:
Mesmer can do Northern Wall slower than any other class, and Anything Mesmer Can Do... others can do better = Mesmer class underpowered

Lolwut? What demented bar are you running? First Vizunah, now GNW... I'm afraid your problem is far from being the underpowered profession you're playing...

GNW can be done in a matter of minutes by just putting Empathy on anyone, and that sure is faster than doing it with an Ele, just to mention one.

upier · Feb 23, 2010, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Pointing out is fine. Screaming like little kids isn't. You're not pointing out, you're complaining about a patch not containing buff that never were meant to be there.

This update WASN'T meanto to address those issues. NEVER was.

So, pointing out for FUTURE updates is fine - even though I'm sure they know better than anyone what needs to be done. Complaining for the current one is pointless. They absolutely CAN'T address EVERYTHING with a single patch. It's not like GW will be over next week.

So, while we're at it, why aren't they rebalancing the UW now? What are they doing for Codex Arena being unsuccessful? Where are the new costumes? Why no info about the 5th Year Anniversary? Why aren't there news about GW2 yet?

Why did they then work on the ritualists then?
I mean, they didn't announce it and the ritualists already are very high on the list of options that are godly, so ... why do it?
Why not waste time on hammers and blood and then waste every spare moment on the stuff that REALLY needs the help?

And most of the bitching in this thread (and others of course) comes from the fact that you have individuals that bring up an issue and then that issue is countered by how those individuals should learn to play better or arguing what's the proper term to describe the inadequacy presented. And then, those same guys admit that the issues presented are actually real issues, but then they still continue attacking their validity.

Morphy · Feb 23, 2010, 11:45 AM // 11:45

From a PvP perspective, these changes are the most likely to have an impact on the gameplay:

Good:
* Primal Rage getting nuked. This piece of power creep has caused problem ever since it got reworked to this version
* Shattering Assault getting nuked for secondaries. While it's probably not enough to take out the R/A gimmick, it's a good start.
* Pious Concentration: Although they ignore the real problem (Empathy, Backfire and VoR), they at least nerf a skill that makes the skills so much stronger. A rework for the unholy trio still needs to be done, though.
* Resilient Weapon and Featherfood Grace: These skills are obviously overpowered and in need of a hit.
* Backbreaker: About time they fixed the BB sin.

Possibly bad:
* Steelfang Slash: This skill might lead to insane knocklocks, which is why it was changed to begin with.
* Life Siphon: This will be both an awesome cover Hex and a good one on its own. It's an outright buff to Hexway.
* Oppressive Gaze: That's a pretty insane skill for Condition spreading. It also doesn't seem to fit the Blood Magic theme very well (Poison is a Death Magic Condition, Weakness is a Curses Condition).
* Jaundiced Gaze: It all depends on the numbers for this one, if it keeps the same HEAR as it has now it'll be totally insane.
* Blood Bond: That's one mighty cover Hex. It would be a better idea to make this an Enchantment.
* Mark of Fury: That's 3 adrenaline on 1 hit. In 5 seconds you could completely fill your adrenaline.
* Auspicious Parry and Defensive Stance: Instant unconditional adrenaline gain (yes, unconditional. Use another stance and you get your adrenaline) is dangerous. Both could serve as a cancel stance and AP is especially dangerous because it recharges so quickly. It could lead to extremely gimmicky builds using it to fuel Hammer Attack Skills, possibly abusing another primary attribute for it.
* Deflect Arrows: If the recharge and duration stays the same, that's an almost permanent block stance, very abusable for secondaries.
* "Fear Me!": A skill to fear indeed, this+Soldier's Stance for IAS and a big chance to critical.
* Overbearing Smash: Don't give Thumpers a second copy of Bestial Mauling, please.
* Renewing Smash: +40 damage is a lot, especially on Hammers. Being able to deal that amount of damage every time you knock somebody down is retarded.

....Keep the random buffs out of PvP, please? Thanks in advance.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why did they then work on the ritualists then?
I mean, they didn't announce it and the ritualists already are very high on the list of options that are godly, so ... why do it?
Why not waste time on hammers and blood and then waste every spare moment on the stuff that REALLY needs the help?

You make it oversimplistic. Do you really think THAT's all they've been working on in the last few months? They obviously DON'T work on an update at a time. This is what they have ready to release: simple buffs to address simple issues.

Who knows what's next?

Dzjudz · Feb 23, 2010, 12:22 PM // 12:22

While they're at it, they should change Assassin's Promise to read: "Elite Hex Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5...17...20 Energy and all your Assassin skills are recharged."

upier · Feb 23, 2010, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You make it oversimplistic. Do you really think THAT's all they've been working on in the last few months? They obviously DON'T work on an update at a time. This is what they have ready to release: simple buffs to address simple issues.

Who knows what's next?

Well working on multiple balance projects at the same time and releasing stuff when it's ready, sure fits in really nicely with the move from a monthly skill update to a bimonthly plan, which they still haven't been able to keep.

Captain Bulldozer · Feb 23, 2010, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Pointing out is fine. Screaming like little kids isn't. You're not pointing out, you're complaining about a patch not containing buff that never were meant to be there.

This update WASN'T meanto to address those issues. NEVER was.

So, pointing out for FUTURE updates is fine - even though I'm sure they know better than anyone what needs to be done. Complaining for the current one is pointless. They absolutely CAN'T address EVERYTHING with a single patch. It's not like GW will be over next week.

So, while we're at it, why aren't they rebalancing the UW now? What are they doing for Codex Arena being unsuccessful? Where are the new costumes? Why no info about the 5th Year Anniversary? Why aren't there news about GW2 yet?

Sorry Gill, but you miss the point. I think everyone here realizes that changes to crappy professions was not INTENDED to be in the update. What you've missed is that the people posting here by and large think that's what the update SHOULD have been about.

When you think about it, its pretty understandable that players aren't satisfied... we've had to wait for 6 months to get even this little tidbit of an update. Remember that when most of us started playing there were updates once a week, like clockwork, even after EotN was out. Then it was changed to once every few weeks, then once a month, then once every 2 months and finally 1 time in 6 (SIX!) months. By the live team's own promise there should have been 3 updates in that time and we're getting one, which is about equivalent to the kind we would get weekly not so long ago.

Add to that the fact that there are some very needed balances that have been due for literally YEARS that still are being left out (or by your argument not even planned) and the result is that we are pissed off. We've all paid a good amount of money for a game which is currently BARELY supported. Honestly, sometimes I think anet would be better off if they just shut down their servers, and let the current player base set up their own where they could balance the game on their own. Or, at the very least, instead of using the test krewe for testing purposes only, they should be taking their ideas for buffs/nerfs directly from at least a sampling of the players whom they have deemed worthy. (Maybe they're already doing that... if so kudos... but then the TK needs to think in broader terms and listen to the non-TK members.)

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why did they then work on the ritualists then?
I mean, they didn't announce it and the ritualists already are very high on the list of options that are godly, so ... why do it?
Why not waste time on hammers and blood and then waste every spare moment on the stuff that REALLY needs the help?

And most of the bitching in this thread (and others of course) comes from the fact that you have individuals that bring up an issue and then that issue is countered by how those individuals should learn to play better or arguing what's the proper term to describe the inadequacy presented. And then, those same guys admit that the issues presented are actually real issues, but then they still continue attacking their validity.

That pretty much sums it up

.. and makes further discussion pointless after numerous "become more skilled and you will be able to do this mission in HM, although slower / with more difficulty / but mesmer doesn't need buff, you just need to learn how to have fun with it even if it sucks".

Lanier · Feb 23, 2010, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

As I stated before, we're talking about skill balance here, not area balance.

Your point of view:
Mesmer can do Northern Wall = cool! = Mesmer class balanced!

My point of view:
Mesmer can do Northern Wall slower than any other class, and Anything Mesmer Can Do... others can do better = Mesmer class underpowered

I do Vanquishes with 7 people in 8 man areas, 5 people in 6 man areas, and 3 people in 4 man areas. Technically speaking, this means a mesmer in the team can have empty skillbar and dance at the portal while the rest of the team does VQ. Does that mean mesmer class is OK and balanced? No. So what is your point of stating you can do VQ with build X? This is a skill balance thread. A skill balance thread. A skill balance thread. Not 'I can do this with WMo mending build'.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Im not saying that mesmers dont need buffs. Im merely saying they arnt a crappy class.

Quote:

I think everyone here realizes that changes to crappy professions was not INTENDED to be in the update.

Once again, they arnt a crappy profession. They just cant accomplish their goals as fast as other professions. Sure mesmers need buffs but they arnt all THAT bad as they are.

Quote:

or arguing what's the proper term to describe the inadequacy presented.

yea, thats me. Im tired of hearing that my professions is crappy when they are only slightly underpowered.

Quote:

While they're at it, they should change Assassin's Promise to read: "Elite Hex Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5...17...20 Energy and all your Assassin skills are recharged."

that is exactly the change that I would like to see implemented. It would allow assassins to use it to recharge longer-recharging chains but it would not be abusable by other professions.

Quote:

NOT being able to do anything because all your skills are recharging

Once again, you are overexagerating the recharges. I rarely have to wand unless im playing some gimmicky per shutdown build for the lol's or for fun.

Quote:

that whatever you can do on a mesmer, another class can do it better.

Uh, no. Mesmers can interupt and disrupt better than any profession. This may not be useful in PvE, but that doesnt change the fact that no other profession does this better than a mesmer.

Quote:

another idea to buff mesmers: add 'if that hex ends early' clause. there are loads of hex-stripping mobs in pve, oftenly in groups. so empathy inflicting long blindness if it ends early or backfire disabling three random spells would add great power to mesmerish mesmer. it would also add synergy with shatter delusions and so on. again, the possibilities are endless.

Thats a good idea that I have been vouching for for awhile. I think that Shatter hex would be a great skill if other skills had synergy with it.

Quote:

power in pve = how fast you can kill everything + how fast can you move + what are the odds of failing.

First, I would disagree that how fast you can move is power in pve.

Second, we have to remember that mesmers are not a strait up dps class. Therefore, if more "power" is to be given to mesmers, it has to be in a way that utilises what mesmers are intended to do (ex: rewarding interuption or disruption or e-denial with damage).

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Sorry Gill, but you miss the point. I think everyone here realizes that changes to crappy professions was not INTENDED to be in the update. What you've missed is that the people posting here by and large think that's what the update SHOULD have been about.

I repeat.

Most of the issues you think that SHOULD have been addressed with this update are HUGE issues that need something like... a complete game redesign? to be addressed properly. Unless you want the usual band-aid fix, like those that only generate power-creeps and then get nerfed in 6 months (VoR says "Hi!"). Which, ironically, is what Ritualists got so far: their primary attribute still sucks big time, yet they got one ubiquitous build based on a stupidly OP elite skill that's being abused by everyone and his mother, but won't probably last long.

You CANNOT assume they AREN'T addressing more issues anytime soon, nor that they work on one or two issues at at time, release an update to address them and then start to think what's next. That's absolutely absurd. I'd be wondering what the Hell they have been doing in the last 8 months if they just worked on this update, 'cause it surely didn't take that much.

If anything, Paragons should be more vocal here, since they hardly make a point in this game now, lacking ANY appeal at all.

As far as gameplay goes, I find offering alternatives to overpowered builds much more valuable than band-aid buffs to a classes that, while being subpar, work perfectly fine (like the Dervish and the Mesmer): Warrior can now consider Hammers and Tactics instead of DS+SY / HB+MoP, Necros will probably try out Blood and maybe Ritualists will stop being Spirit Spammers only. Surely that won't change the current state of the game and probably everyone will go back to the usual builds after the sense of novelty has faded away. Good intentions, awful execution, but well, that's Anet. I still appreciate they tried.

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Uh, no. Mesmers can interupt and disrupt better than any profession. This may not be useful in PvE

LMAO.

We're talking about the status of Mesmer in PvE, and then you come and say they do this and that better than others... oh wait, not in PvE!

Hilarious.

FYI, Mesmer interrupts and disrupts actually suck even in some PvP arenas. In RA or FA for instance, you're better off having a ranger than mesmer if you want to be successful (yes, talking about disruption and interruption). I don't play GvG anymore so maybe someone else can comment on that, but "mesmer is good at interruption... but sucks out of GvG" just shows how bad mesmers really are. Wake up, GvG is played by a small % of players, and is just 1 zone in the game, and now that we have PvE PvP split there is no need to have crap skills outside of GvG because it might affect monthly tournaments. Do I come to GvG subforum saying how necros are ok because AotL Death Nova and Bone Minions are cool? No, I don't, because it would sound silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Most of the issues you think that SHOULD have been addressed with this update are HUGE issues that need something like... a complete game redesign?

Urban legend. See examples in the other thread. Buff is enough, no need for complete game redesign, just buff that will keep in mind PvE environment as it is right now. I demonstrated it can be done. How can someone then say it can't, is beyond me. State of Denial I guess.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Add to that the fact that there are some very needed balances that have been due for literally YEARS that still are being left out (or by your argument not even planned) and the result is that we are pissed off.

In the last two years, Balance Updates brought:

- Multiple buffs to Ether Feast - which really didn't need any, since it was one of the best self heals in the game.
- A buff to Energy Tap
- A buff to Empathy
- A buff to Energy Surge and Energy Burn - go figure, since e-denial is pointless in PvE, they even reduced the energy loss and increased damage! But what do they know...
- Ether Nightmare being buffed and becoming pretty much the best AoE degen skill in the game
- Lyssa's Aura getting a good buff
- CoP being buffed (and then reworked) and spawning the infamous Cryway
- VoR becoming so powerful and abusable that became meta everywhere (before getting a nerf)
- IoP becoming godly (and then being slightly toned down)

And those are just the ones that spring into my mind right now. How can you say this class is being "left out"?

EDIT - Oh and I forgot Wastrel's Demise!

Otello · Feb 23, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Wow, Dwarven Battle Stance + Dwarven Stability might be fun.

I already used this combo and it was very fun. Now I think I will quit. To keep blocking 24/7 a powerful ele or a monk was very useful.

Lanier · Feb 23, 2010, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

LMAO.

We're talking about the status of Mesmer in PvE, and then you come and say they do this and that better than others... oh wait, not in PvE!

Hilarious.

uh... what? I said Mesmers DO disrupt better and interupt better in PvE. I just admitted that disruption isnt useful there (though i would argue interuption is). I never said anything that could be interpreted as "oh wait, not in PvE!". Why dont you reread my post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

FYI, Mesmer interrupts and disrupts actually suck even in some PvP arenas. In RA or FA for instance, you're better off having a ranger than mesmer if you want to be successful (yes, talking about disruption and interruption). I don't play GvG anymore so maybe someone else can comment on that, but "mesmer is good at interruption... but sucks out of GvG" just shows how bad mesmers really are. Wake up, GvG is played by a small % of players, and is just 1 zone in the game, and now that we have PvE PvP split there is no need to have crap skills outside of GvG because it might affect monthly tournaments. Do I come to GvG subforum saying how necros are ok because AotL Death Nova and Bone Minions are cool? No, I don't, because it would sound silly.

Uh... i wasnt talking about mesmers in the PvP world, but if you would like to, i can. Mesmers have far more options for interrupts and disrupts in PvP than any other profession including rangers. Mesmers can deny energy better, and have access to a wider variety of interupts with a wide variety of side effects. I will admit that D-shot is good, but mesmers (or any other prof) can use it just as well as rangers, and I would far rather have the assortment of other disruption spells available to mesmers. Mesmers have the incredibly awesome diversion for PvP, as well as the punishing hexes. I really dont see how you can say that rangers interupt/disrupt better than mesmers.