Curse

pumpkin pie · Feb 21, 2010, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Nerf The Perma

Why the SoS nerf? That made spirit spamming so much fun.

Because they (who ever think making the recharge time longer for SoS with less damage is gonna make a difference) has failed to see that SoS is not the real problem of spirit spamming, the real culprit is Summon Spirit

Try not bring summon spirit with your spirit spamming rit and see how good/bad it works. Another Winter's Embrace

Abedeus · Feb 21, 2010, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

looks like steelfang lockers r back

charge + deflect arrows meta

yet more fail pvp balance

PvE-focused update. Only the skills at the bottom of the update will be changed in PvP.

FoxBat · Feb 21, 2010, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

PvE-focused update. Only the skills at the bottom of the update will be changed in PvP.

PvE-focused != PvE only. They are explicit about where a change is PvE only.

Bill Clinton · Feb 21, 2010, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

By your definition, if SoS was only used by ritualists it would be balanced?
Or if CoP was only used by mesmers, it would also be balanced?

Certainly a whole lot more balanced than it currently is.
Dont forget there are many ways to value balance.

Balance can be skill-to-skill balance. Making sure all skills are used equally among one another. It can also be proffesion-to-proffession balance. Making sure each class sees relatively as much use as another. And lastly balance can be seen as a measure of difficulty. Making sure that nothing is too overpowered so that end-game areas remain a challenge.

In my opinion, shadow form needs to be nerfed the most because it violates all three views to balance. Assassins now dominate elite areas. They always use shadow form over other elites, and they clear final areas far faster than Anet inteded them to with ease.

If you look at something like 600/smite you can see that it really only violates the second view. Monks dont always run 600/Smite, they have many many more options, and 600/smite is very difficult in elite areas, often taking a lot of practice to pull off. However, because of it you pretty much get looooads of monks running around (take a look at mqsc).

Gill Halendt · Feb 21, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Oh, the irony.

PvErs were pushed away when the january balance update was introduced, basically because it was PvP-focused. Now, it's the other way round: this is the PvE part, PvP issues aren't prioritary this time.

Tenebrae · Feb 21, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

By your definition, if SoS was only used by ritualists it would be balanced?
Or if CoP was only used by mesmers, it would also be balanced?

Yeah , because all is black or white. If something is powerful but can be used only for 1 class , its power is X. If that can be used by all classes , its power is at least 8x .... i cant believe you asked that seriously because its plain simple , hope its a joke

.

upier · Feb 21, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Because they (who ever think making the recharge time longer for SoS with less damage is gonna make a difference) has failed to see that SoS is not the real problem of spirit spamming, the real culprit is Summon Spirit

Try not bring summon spirit with your spirit spamming rit and see how good/bad it works. Another Winter's Embrace

Run 14 Channeling/14 Resto.
Bring SoS, Spirit Syphon, Weapon of Warding, Mend Body and Soul, Spirit Light, Protective Was Kaolei.
That's 6 skills, leaving you with 2 open slots.
With this you get a character that does some 60ish DPS while having the healing potential of a monk. That has unlimited energy.
I somehow don't think that the problem is Summon Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

Certainly a whole lot more balanced than it currently is.
Dont forget there are many ways to value balance.

Balance can be skill-to-skill balance. Making sure all skills are used equally among one another. It can also be proffesion-to-proffession balance. Making sure each class sees relatively as much use as another. And lastly balance can be seen as a measure of difficulty. Making sure that nothing is too overpowered so that end-game areas remain a challenge.

In my opinion, shadow form needs to be nerfed the most because it violates all three views to balance. Assassins now dominate elite areas. They always use shadow form over other elites, and they clear final areas far faster than Anet inteded them to with ease.

If you look at something like 600/smite you can see that it really only violates the second view. Monks dont always run 600/Smite, they have many many more options, and 600/smite is very difficult in elite areas, often taking a lot of practice to pull off. However, because of it you pretty much get looooads of monks running around (take a look at mqsc).

So, for areas where 600/smite is used, can you name comparable builds that would clear the same areas with as much (or better yet - as little) effort as it takes with 600/smite? And the skill and effort required for 600/smite is MUCH higher than when doing the same areas with a full team (I mean certainly you can expect that since you clear an area with 2 people instead of 8), right?
So, what would be the 2 (or 3 depending on the team build) man variants that can match this build?

I mean it would be nice to know of these options since when 600/smite gets trashed we'll all move to those options because clearly they are very much comparable and nothing out of the ordinary.
Right?

enter_the_zone · Feb 21, 2010, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Because they (who ever think making the recharge time longer for SoS with less damage is gonna make a difference) has failed to see that SoS is not the real problem of spirit spamming, the real culprit is Summon Spirit

Try not bring summon spirit with your spirit spamming rit and see how good/bad it works. Another Winter's Embrace

Works fine for me as a R/Rt. Just drop spirits on recharge..

Regards 600/smite and mqsc/dtsc, I think that's more to do with a broken title track than anything else. Anet wants you to grind, people don't want to. If it was maxable by playing one of each class through cantha (including a VQ of every k/l faction zone on every char), it might be more reasonable. Since it's not, people will use the fastest thing they can. Same as boxing for survivor.

Lopezus · Feb 21, 2010, 02:44 PM // 14:44

So they care about Rit in high-end PvE, but how about mesmers ? Not a single buff proposal so i guess thay will probably nerf it even more in pve.

QueenofDeath · Feb 21, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

You've missed a keyword there, mate.

No I haven't because MOST everything is maintainable if you use your energy wisely. I can maintain Weapon of Aggression very easily and constantly. It's all in energy management.

) Also without any inheirent drawbacks within the skill.

) This is also a great skill to use with assassin and warriors I'm finding. Adding Warriors Endurance really keeps 25% IAS up constantly barring no lucky interupt, but, interupt ruins all cases of anything when it comes to drawbacks.

Karate Jesus · Feb 21, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Oh, the irony.

PvErs were pushed away when the january balance update was introduced, basically because it was PvP-focused. Now, it's the other way round: this is the PvE part, PvP issues aren't prioritary this time.

However, the skills that aren't being split will still affect PvP. I'm not too worried about it, as nothing looks gamebreaking.

Actually, I'm not worried about any of it. At this point, I'm so happy to have skill changes that they could be buffing Shadow Form and I'd still be happy.

A lot of it looks like it will affect hero-ways (especially physical hero-ways, if you looked at the blood changes). I have a feeling that D/N, E/N, and N/X orders heroes are going to be a lot more popular. And "Retreat!" will be a pretty awesome alternative to FB! in large, low-end arenas (CM/AB).

Shayne Hawke · Feb 21, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

That entire statement is both shameful and ridiculous. I sincerely hope your view is not the majority view in the Test Krewe and among the ANet devs. Why should one class be exempt from end-game PvE, just because you're unwilling to make the necessary changes? -.-

I think people should have realized by now that I speak of the Test Krewe and part of what we do, not for them.

I don't see an easy fix to the solution. I don't play Mesmer in PvE (or PvP). I don't have what it takes to figure out what needs done to make the Mesmer viable in high-end PvE again. It's extremely low on my priority list, until someone comes out with a set of proposed changes to skills that mostly fills the previously mentioned criteria. If and when I can see a solution to the problem, I don't mind pushing for it.

Karate Jesus · Feb 21, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I don't see an easy fix to the solution. I don't play Mesmer in PvE (or PvP). I don't have what it takes to figure out what needs done to make the Mesmer viable in high-end PvE again. It's extremely low on my priority list, until someone comes out with a set of proposed changes to skills that mostly fills the previously mentioned criteria. If and when I can see a solution to the problem, I don't mind pushing for it.

My mesmer is my main, and honestly Mesmers just need more of what every other profession has - namely, AoE. Look at the new changes for necros and rits. They're being made more viable in PvE with essentially more AoE that makes sense for their profession.

Either that or convince Anet to let Mesmers steal Monster skills. That would definitely end some of the bitching

Shayne Hawke · Feb 21, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

charge + deflect arrows meta

There was an important aspect to the Deflect Arrows skill change that wasn't mentioned. It shouldn't be as bad as it seems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Bloody good point. If it doesnt trigger the armor penalty , then CA is going to screw some paragons really hard , getting nukes from lvl 26-30 foes with those -40 H U R T S real bad ( and please , dont come with that "PS say hi" bullcrap , you cant keep whole team under PS always and ench strip do exist ).

The Paragon has its base 80 armor reduced then by -20 from the skill and -20 from an outside application of Cracked Armor. The important thing to remember here is that Cracked Armor doesn't reduce armor below 60. The Paragon would then be stuck at 60 armor, and would have to throw a lot more armor on top of itself through its shield, insignia, and other buffs in order to get above 60.

It's a problem we're aware of. Just thinking off the bat, adding a line "when unaffected by Cracked Armor" to the end of the -20 armor clause would solve this problem enough, right?

Magikarp · Feb 21, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

No mesmer love

No dervish love

Odd rit buffs

Odd para.. buffs (more like nerfs)

Op warrior buffs (still fun.. so this is a good thing)

Lame necro buffs

Hmm.. was this really worth the wait? :/

Sorry..

Karate Jesus · Feb 21, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Odd para.. buffs (more like nerfs)

I still don't understand why they ignore the terrible para elites. For example, Defensive Anthem. After next Thursday, DA will still be less powerful than Aegis (non-elite) and now less powerful than "Retreat!" (non-elite).....

Kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

Lishy · Feb 21, 2010, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I'm pretty sure mesmers and dervishes will eventually be covered in a future update. Until then, these seem to be the priorities.

upier · Feb 21, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

The Paragon has its base 80 armor reduced then by -20 from the skill and -20 from an outside application of Cracked Armor. The important thing to remember here is that Cracked Armor doesn't reduce armor below 60. The Paragon would then be stuck at 60 armor, and would have to throw a lot more armor on top of itself through its shield, insignia, and other buffs in order to get above 60.

It's a problem we're aware of. Just thinking off the bat, adding a line "when unaffected by Cracked Armor" to the end of the -20 armor clause would solve this problem enough, right?

As a para you will be running with Centurians and at least + 15armour of the shield.
Which means that you should be on AL 105+.

"When unaffected by Cracked Armor" is a nerf to an already nerfed skill. Previously if Cracked was removed you'd be back to your normal armour level (since CA from two sources does not stack), whereas now this clause would kick in and CA was removed for nothing - wasting energy and a skill that could have been better used on someone else.
With CA in the game, this change really doesn't make sense.

Gill Halendt · Feb 21, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

However, the skills that aren't being split will still affect PvP. I'm not too worried about it, as nothing looks gamebreaking.

Sure thing.

The problem I was pointing out is forum users advocating a split even in those discussions about updates: whenever a skill is altered, changes will affect both PvE and PvP, so both playerbases have reasons to discuss.

I just found irritating when PvErs were told to shut up last time because of the update being "PvP-focused", yet now PvPers come here and complain about "Charge!" and Steelfang. That's exactly the same as Soldier's Fury, only reversed.

Also, I'm afraid people here still expect a panacea with every update. A Fix with capital F that will solve every issue they can think of, otherwise the update is /fail. Well, that's not going to happen.

Tenebrae · Feb 21, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As a para you will be running with Centurians and at least + 15armour of the shield.
Which means that you should be on AL 105+.

"When unaffected by Cracked Armor" is a nerf to an already nerfed skill. Previously if Cracked was removed you'd be back to your normal armour level (since CA from two sources does not stack), whereas now this clause would kick in and CA was removed for nothing - wasting energy and a skill that could have been better used on someone else.
With CA in the game, this change really doesn't make sense.

You clearly didnt read the new skill description . CA affects paragons like affect any other char but with the new nerf it changes. CA doesnt lower your armor beyond 60 but that debuff DOES , therefore is not a nerf to a nerfed skill , is more like some room to breathe.
Paragons have good armor amount but that doesnt justify the -40 armor when affected by CA and the Debuff . 2 Bleedings dont stack when necromancer uses some blood spells and someone inflicts bleeding again , why 2 -20 armor debuffs should stack ?.