Curse

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

What's the point of any thread on this forum? Is this discussion less worthy than people complaining about the XTH going down, or the discourse on the stupidest thing heard in all-chat? This is a discussion. We are discussing. That's what forums are all about.

Indeed, threads are for discussing, not for ranting or to unleash sterile polemics, or for Josip to bash anyone not agreeing with him/her. The discussion here pretty much died on... page 1?

cthulhu reborn · Feb 23, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Mesmer mobs are worse because they are generally with more than one and have a higher level. So they have a lot more HP and their skills do more damage. A player mesmer can never keep up with that.
In general monsters have a lot more of everything so attacking their energy is pointless cause you can't get em to run out really. Interrupts, well they do run out and the monster's still standing casting spells or monster skills so PB doesn't kill all their skills either. Bosses are even worse because of hexes lasting half the time on them, so that's PvE.
But then PvP is entirely different because you do have level 20 enemies so as soon as you nerf a skill PvE gets screwed and if you buff it PvP gets screwed. For Mesmers I think that problem is the most acute and noticeable. Mesmers probably need the changes more, but I have little faith that Mesmers can be fixed because any change is too noticeable in either side of the game (PvE or PvP).

Snark Is Dead · Feb 23, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

PS: Something else that's funny. I go to Consular Docks and interview people with mesmer secondaries. Turns out NO ONE used a single mesmer skill, except 1 guy who took assassin farming build from pvxwiki and had it in that mission area. That's called Empiric Data showing that mesmers are for show. Popular secondaries, right.

Is that so? I was one of the people you had an exchange with. When I told you I used Arcane Echo, Fragility and Cry of Pain and Auspicious Incantation in my monk's RoJ PvE build you rapid fire pm'd: "CoP is PvE only" "So you use it to RoJ farm?" I respond that I don't farm and got this: "Most people use Sin for better farming. I see X/Me it's for show." "Thx, bye". And you logged.

The only issue is that Mesmer primary should have been receiving the buff even if it meant that the necromancer didn't get a Blood Magic buff. Trying to agruging that Mesmer is not used as a secondary is auto-lose but it provides great utility for other primaries (para, necro, ele, rt, monk, ranger etc) but fails as a primary in PvE.

Del · Feb 23, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snark Is Dead

Is that so? I was one of the people you had an exchange with. When I told you I used Arcane Echo, Fragility and Cry of Pain and Auspicious Incantation in my monk's RoJ PvE build you rapid fire pm'd: "CoP is PvE only" "So you use it to RoJ farm?" I respond that I don't farm and got this: "Most people use Sin for better farming. I see X/Me it's for show." "Thx, bye". And you logged.

The only issue is that Mesmer primary should have been receiving the buff even if it meant that the necromancer didn't get a Blood Magic buff. Trying to agruging that Mesmer is not used as a secondary is auto-lose but it provides great utility for other primaries (para, necro, ele, rt, monk, ranger etc) but fails as a primary in PvE.

Oh wow, i guess your evidence is so credible isn't it Josip?

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 23, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Another weak point of mesmer heroes is that both of the primary functions of most mesmer builds (hexing and interrupting) are executed terribly by heroes. They don't know what hex to cast on which foe and which interrupt to use when.

Sort of have to agree on that. Ever notice that even a Shadowsong Spirit targets the right thing, i.e. anything that isn't already blind? That makes that spirit smarter than most ai mesmers.

trankle · Feb 23, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

What does that prove, that there are bad players who use monk heroes? EMo NRt, those are healers. Pdrain and Wnwn are subpar options that some players use with subpar heroes. Which exactly proves my point.

It's good to hear your opinion on this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Fair enough, but I'm not taking into consideration degenerative forms of gameplay but general PvE.

It's good to hear your opinion on this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Who uses Deep Freeze in general PvE (HM)? Especially with Auspicious? Out of 500 eles you're going to find what, 2 of them that use Auspicious? That's hardly super popular combination.

It's good to hear your opinion on this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Of course, but it's a niche skill for some missions like Gate of Pain (was it?) and in no way epidemic candidates for popular skills.

It's good to hear your opinion on this matter.

Keep up the arguments based on opinion, not "facts, evidents [sic], data". If you want to make your opinions seem even more valid, try labeling them as "empiric data". It sounds very official.

Del · Feb 23, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

I
Keep up the arguments based on opinion, not "facts, evidents [sic], data". If you want to make your opinions seem even more valid, try labeling them as "empiric data". It sounds very official.

Give him a break, he obviously doesn't have any real evidence, so opinion is his only option.

Pandora's box · Feb 24, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Indeed, threads are for discussing, not for ranting or to unleash sterile polemics, or for Josip to bash anyone not agreeing with him/her. The discussion here pretty much died on... page 1?

Than why are you still following this? We are not in a political debate. You admit to be sharpening the knives here for the coming Q-Q SF nerf thread. Well don't. And stop calling this a rant. There are people out here who honestly like to discuss skills. If you like to participate than come with solutions.

Interrupts in HM are indeed broken for human players. Simply because you need time to react. But heroes can do a fine job. Especially if you give them more interrupts and quickly cycle target when engaging a mob. The clue is not to let them spend everything on the first target...

Gill Halendt · Feb 24, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Than why are you still following this? We are not in a political debate. You admit to be sharpening the knives here for the coming Q-Q SF nerf thread. Well don't. And stop calling this a rant. There are people out here who honestly like to discuss skills. If you like to participate than come with solutions.

Because I keep on being quoted by OP and still find reasons to reply, but admitedly, there was little point in this thread - not really a thread to discuss Mesmers, but just a thread to express disappointment for some buff not happening - and it soon vanished.

I also honestly like to discuss skills. I'm an active Mesmer player. Yet we didn't really get a chance of "discussing skills" with Josip quoting anyone not gratuitously bashing the Mesmer for being ineffective - with abundant doses of sarcasm that caused high pitched replies - while relentlessly trying to demonstrate that Mesmers "suck". As he/she said, this is no place for opinions, it's just a "join the bandwagon of complaints or die" thing. I won't call this a rant, but you can't even call this a discussion when any opinion is banished from the thread.

About solutions... Well, as I said, you can't just put suggestions to rework a profession in a generic topic like this. We can chat about issues and agree on weak and strong point of each class, but that's it. Suggestion must be focused, well explained, on specific issues. "Buff the Mesmer, not the Necro" is not a suggestion, expecially since the update is pretty much finalized now. It's a rant, however you look at it. There are also much better places to suggest changes - the Feedback page on the Wiki, for example - , while you have no guarantee this thread will ever be considered.

Also, the QQ-fest thing was a joke, I was trying to ease up things, since this thread was obviously going over the top and the update hasn't even gone live yet...

mage767 · Feb 24, 2010, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers don't have the massive amount of team synergy that is still be pushed in the updates.

No synergy with existing PvE meta...true, but you can be creative and develop a team build that does synergize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

They are incapable of any real disruption using mesmer skills.

Humans, true. Heroes, not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers have spike builds that require a tank that work (see SoS, Ob, SF, and 600 nerfs), but it's spike because they are unable to handle both energy, decent level of damage, and recharge in the same build. Necromancers can have their cake and eat it too. And your friend's cake.

CoP, VoR aren't the only builds a mesmer should run...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Fevered Dreams could have been a game changing build (aka something worth using) for them, however the lack of energy over shadows the advantage of getting conditions up faster and blind from having an elementalist secondary.

FD is an excellent elite. However, people didn't receive the memo. Again, it synergizes well if you dump discord/sab and crate a nice team build that WORKS with it. And lastly, blind isn't a necessity...but it helps.

uby · Feb 24, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

my suggestions on how to buff mesmer:

1) Fast Casting + Spell Cast Times
Increase Mesmer skill cast times across the board by 50%.
Increase the effect of Fast Casting by 50%.
Net result: Primary Mesmers can cast their spells just as fast, but Secondary Mesmers lose some utility on long cast time spells.
Purpose: Allows for buffing Mesmer skills without overpowering classes taking Mesmer skills as a Secondary profession.

2) Synergies
Increase the synergies among the Mesmer attribute skillsets. For example, increase the effect of some Domination hex spell effects while target foe is under the effect of an Illusion hex. For example, Overload currently reads "Target foe takes 5...33 damage. If that foe was casting a spell, you deal +5...41 damage." This could easily be changed to "Target foe takes 5...33 damage. If that foe was under the effect of an Illusion hex, target takes +5...41 damage."
Purpose: Encourages Mesmers to invest in multiple attributes while increasing potency of some skills.

3) "Spell steal" effect
Modify these spells to disable the corresponding spell from the target foe, lowering the duration to compensate OR provide some means of controlling which spell is stolen (ie - the NEXT spell is stolen, or a dialogue box comes up similar to skill caps)
Purpose: Spell/skill disabling is a vital part of opponent shutdown. Spell stealing is a novelty, but without control of what you get it is ultimately a liability. These modifications could help make these spells more useful.

4) Interrupts
The mesmer has a LOT of interrupts, probably more than it needs. Most interrupts are not used in PvE due to fast monster cast times and reaction/latency issues (many are useful, obviously, but we use less than half of what we have available is all I'm getting at). Giving the mesmer more 'look ahead' interrupts with more varied effects would be incredibly useful (ie - more like Clumsiness).

These, along with modifications to skill recharges and energy costs, would make the Mesmer more competitive in PvE.

drkn · Feb 24, 2010, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Because I keep on being quoted by OP and still find reasons to reply, but admitedly, there was little point in this thread - not really a thread to discuss Mesmers, but just a thread to express disappointment for some buff not happening - and it soon vanished.

hello, capt'n obvious. if you didn't know it at the very beginning of the thread, well, blame yourself.

Quote:

No synergy with existing PvE meta...true, but you can be creative and develop a team build that does synergize.

have you done so?
i have. numerous times. and i'm still better with paragon + h/h in pve.

upier · Feb 24, 2010, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

i said everywhere but pve. FA IS pve.

Just because it's not relevant PvP, doesn't make it PvE.
Unless you want to argue that Balthy Faction is a PvE reward also? In which case, let's have raptors give it.

Lopezus · Feb 24, 2010, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

FD is an excellent elite.

Of course it isn't, it just useful in PvE which is pretty exeptional from mesmers elites but if you move this skill to necro skill line, let's say curses, no one would say it is excellent.

Earth · Feb 24, 2010, 09:32 AM // 09:32

This thread is well on it's way to getting closed... Keep on topic, and attack the argument (or opinion), not the poster. This goes for everyone. Thanks.

gremlin · Feb 24, 2010, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

This thread is well on it's way to getting closed... Keep on topic, and attack the argument (or opinion), not the poster. This goes for everyone. Thanks.

Sadly that's how a load of threads end on this and other forums.

There are those who know that the Mods will close a thread that degenerates into a morass of personal insults and counter insults.
Any thread that starts going in a direction they don't like and they subvert it with pointless innuendo.

Anyway back to topic.
Yes Mesmers could be buffed as could Necros but do they need it.
There are changes I could wish for with mesmers but I doubt they will happen we will just get a few tweaks.

I try to work within the framework that is pve
Ok so monsters can outshoot a lot of the time me and energy denial is pointless a because they have unlimited energy.
They have to have a huge energy pool because the AI cannot do decent energy management I worked that out very early on.

That said I am not worried about their energy pool or their faster interrupt capability I stick to removing skills from their arsenal denying their use of dangerous and usually slow casting skills and punishing them for attacking using or not using skills.

All I am interested in this game is making the parties job go easier and I can do that pretty well.

The Josip · Feb 24, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snark Is Dead

Is that so? I was one of the people you had an exchange with. When I told you I used Arcane Echo, Fragility and Cry of Pain and Auspicious Incantation in my monk's RoJ PvE build you rapid fire pm'd: "CoP is PvE only" "So you use it to RoJ farm?" I respond that I don't farm and got this: "Most people use Sin for better farming. I see X/Me it's for show." "Thx, bye". And you logged.

1. You used Me secondary sometimes but were not using it at the moment I interviewed you. You admit that yourself. Where is a problem then? I was making empiric data on who is using at a given time mesmer secondary skills. Not who ever used for something in the history of GW mesmer secondary skills. Do you disagree that you did not have Mesmer skills when I talked to you?

2. You, like everyone else in the outpost where I was collecting data, did not use mesmer skills except As who took pvx farming build. Do you have contrary evidence? If not, I proved, in that particular case, that mesmer secondary was not only not popular, but also non-existent.

3. "Most people use Sin for better farming. I see X/Me it's for show." I never said this. I commented on the use of mes secondary skills of the sin who took pvxwiki farming build to pve ZM. At no point did we discuss who or what is better for farming.

If you have counterargument or counterdata, go and collect it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Oh wow, i guess your evidence is so credible isn't it Josip?

You're trying so hard to be 'right' that you're ready to neglect everything and just blindly go with "you're wrong you're wrong". I at least use arguments and empiric data. You people laugh at empiric data, facts, logic and arguments, but hey, that's not my problem.

My evidence is credible, see reply to this guy above.

In short:

1. Mesmers are underused (empiric data)
2. Mesmer secondaries (skills, not show) are underused or barely used in comparison to other secondary skills (empiric data)
3. Mesmer needed buff more than necro
4. Mesmer is less wanted in PuGs than necro (empiric data)

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

If you want to make your opinions seem even more valid, try labeling them as "empiric data". It sounds very official.

Ironic. A guy with no contribution in this thread is complaining how I dared to go to PvE outpost to collect empiric data (as proven above by that guy) and then use it in a debate to prove a point.

Forgive me father for I have sinned, I used arguments and empiric data and people are mocking them.

drkn · Feb 24, 2010, 01:01 PM // 13:01

i don't agree, Josip. mesmer secondaries are oftenly used. for three-four skill total, but still. eles with echoes, monks with mor, necros with echo, casters with inspiration line, x/me farming, sins on echo and ether nightmare...
it's endless. just a few skills are used, but by no doubt mesmer secondary is one of the most popular. it's one part of the problem, too - mesmers have no real primairy power, even if you are a mesmer, you have to rely fully on your secondary, not letting it aid your primairy skills, while x/me can reap mesmer of his useful skills due to his primairy superiority.

Snark Is Dead · Feb 24, 2010, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Hai The Josip. Is this the part where I have to post the screenshots I had a feeling I should take just in case? Must I really?

You and the others won the internet when your argument was that Mesmer needed/should've received the buff even if it meant that War, Rt and/or Necros didn't get one in order to tie up loose-ends in those professions.

You became mock fodder when you claimed that even as a secondary, Mesmer skills are useless and underused in PvE outside of an Assassin farm build. When not using my Mesmer, I use Mesmer skills the most for secondary but I still wouldn't call it data against your claim. 'Cause you know I'd have to actually set up a proper method to test whether what I *feel* is actual *facts*. Something you didn't do when we had the exchange.

Silmar Alech · Feb 24, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

I don't feel Mesmers in PvE are underpowered. Necros are probably a bit overpowered, but there has to be someone who deals the area damage.

Buff Mesmers? Nah, would be nice, but it's not mandatory. Mesmers weak? No. They may have no place in these highly specialized current standard SC or farming builds, but in normal PUG play for missions, or in vanquishs with guild or PUG, they have a place and a role to play. It's not always AoE damage dealing. If you don't see your role here, Mesmer may not be your dream profession, so switch to another one - there are 9 others.

But let me tell you this: You put a hex here, an interrupt there, some kiting, the help of EVAS, and this invincible enemy is finished single-handedly while the rest of the party is on the ground dead and watches. Pick that dust fuzz from your vest, /bow and resurrect party. (just a little exaggeration, but you get the point)

According to the post counts in web forums, Mesmer is the least played class (together with the Paragon). But that doesn't mean this class is weak. It is only that many people cannot think of how to play it, since it requires experience, a good understanding of the game mechanics and field overview. It's not about brutally bashing the enemy until it's dead. It's more like saying: "You're dead, you just don't know it yet".