Curse

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And when will people realize that on Guru, "being subpar" is mostly expressed with the term "to suck".

I see.

Where in the forum rules is this?

"We can bend the language to our own will and then get nitpicking about Martin Kerstein's spelling"

So ok, Mesmers suck. There are professions who suck big time compared to the Mesmer and don't get such a thread.

Test Me · Feb 23, 2010, 08:58 AM // 08:58

So mesmers "suck".

Eles are useless in HM, therefore useless.

Paras have a single build they can decently run.

W have 2 attributes in reworks as they were useless.

Rt was completely useless until the recent spirit buff and they try now to address further issues with them.

Sins are only good for SF farms.

Rangers are underpowered as everyone in this thread complains.

Dervs can't even use a Scythe as well as other classes do and in general they're subpar in PvE.

So... besides Mo and N does anything work in PvE? GW must be a pretty terrible PvE game

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So... besides Mo and N does anything work in PvE? GW must be a pretty terrible PvE game

Right, and you forgot that Monks are useless beside 600/Smite (which is being nerfed), since N/Rts are oh-so-better healers.

So basically, the one and only decent profession left in Guild Wars is the Necro. It's not great, it's "decent", because we're on Guru.

Silly me thinking the other professions were fine while the Necro was overpowered, I must have missed something...

I now see the point with SF and speed clears.

Smarty · Feb 23, 2010, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So... besides Mo and N does anything work in PvE? GW must be a pretty terrible PvE game

That about sums it up.

Although you should add W back in there, tbh - it was only tactics and hammers that weren't good; axe and sword, plus weapons from other classes, make warriors extremely strong in PvE.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Right, and you forgot that Monks are useless beside 600/Smite (which is being nerfed), since N/Rts are oh-so-better healers.

So basically, the one and only decent profession left in Guild Wars is the Necro. It's not great, it's "decent", because we're on Guru.

Silly me thinking the other professions were fine while the Necro was overpowered, I must have missed something...

I now see the point with SF and speed clears.

My bad, you're quite correct!

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

it was only tactics and hammers that weren't good

Hammers? Really?

Hello?

Smarty · Feb 23, 2010, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Hammers? Really?

Hello?

Well, I was going by ANet's apparent belief that hammers weren't too good in PvE, see the update notes. My husband takes Jora with him as a hammer warrior and she does just fine IMO, but hey ANet is god here and if they think hammers need a buff for PvE then who am I to argue?

upier · Feb 23, 2010, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I see.

Where in the forum rules is this?

"We can bend the language to our own will and then get nitpicking about Martin Kerstein's spelling"

To quote Yunior from Diaz's The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, "Negro, please."

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

I like how you made a complaint thread without making it seem like you were complaining. :|

It was tactical maneuver, carefully made to prevent thread lock

So instead of complaint I started a discussion which is a complaint at the same time

Quote:

Mesmers are underpowered so we should give them two primary attributes?

Actually, I'm probably one of those who think Mesmer primary attribute even in PvE is more or less ok, the problem with it is this:

1. Since Prophecies, other classes got cast-time reduction on many of their skills. Mostly ele. This was indirect nerf to FC.

2. FC skills are trash, especially in PvE. I would have to think really hard to find attribute line in the entire game which has worse skills. Even Mantra of Recovery is 3x worse than Assassin's Promise and unless you're using 2+ energy gain skills, you will probably be out of energy most of the time which makes that skill pointless. Anything you can do... with it, NMe will do better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyLink

I like how you ask an unbias question but then vehemently argue that the mesmer is weaker. You trick people into looking at your thread thinking it's unbias but then you push your agenda on them

You read too many New Age books. Bias is a great thing in a proper place and time. When you see a girl getting raped, go on and be unbiased, just neutrally observe.

I am biased towards skill balance, and if you consider mesmers anything but inferior you'll have to come up with some arguments. New Age opinionating won't do much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

It takes skill to use that class into full potential which can be a shut down class

Owik Gall
Profession: WMo (from guru profile)

Another one who doesn't play a mesmer and thinks that this class magically becomes super-strong in the hand of a superhuman player which still did not appear on the face of the Earth. Earth to Supermesmer, do you read?

Look mister WMo, some of the people in this thread are among top 5% mesmer players when it comes to skill. What you're saying is that a shovel is just as balanced a weapon as a rifle, because in hands of a good soldier the shovel will be equally good. That's so out of touch with reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Exactly what I wanted to say. If only people started looking more for "fun" and less for "efficiency", there would be place for any profession in any group.

So it's ok that some professions are fun to play and strong, but mesmers have to be sucky and fun? Is that it? I thought so.
Minion master can be fun to play, and is insanely powerful. Mesmer can be fun to play, and suck. Result: let's buff necros even more.

This is what we're talking about here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So... besides Mo and N does anything work in PvE? GW must be a pretty terrible PvE game

So if you were skill balancer, would you buff necros even more, or look into other professions you consider weaker overall?

That's what we're talking about here.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

To quote Yunior from Diaz's The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, "Negro, please."

Whatever, we've proved that Mesmers suck, but then again, most classes do. So this thread is pointless, unless we turn it into "Why aren't all classes absurdly overpowered?"

upier · Feb 23, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Whatever, we've proved that Mesmers suck, but then again, most classes do. So this thread is pointless, unless we turn it into "Why aren't all classes absurdly overpowered?"

Actually this thread has a point.
And it's point is pretty much in it's thread title - when you have some classes that are absurdly overpowered, why are these guys still getting better?

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Actually this thread has a point.
And it's point is pretty much in it's thread title - when you have some classes that are absurdly overpowered, why are these guys still getting better?

Simple.

Blood needed a buff. That buff was easy to implement and took little effort and resources -> it was implemented

Mesmers desperately need a buff. That buff is pretty much impossible to implement without either turning the game upside-down or entirely reworking the profession -> any buff is being postponed

How's that hard to understand? The logic is: as long as Mesmers are playable, such a BIG change can wait. Mesmers don't suck, Mesmers are absolutely playable, they are just inferior to Necros. Like, well, every class in the game.

I'd love a buff, but won't whine if it doesn't come. I'd rather get better people to play with in the meanwhile.

upier · Feb 23, 2010, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Simple.

Blood needed a buff. That buff was easy to implement and took little effort and resources -> it was implemented

Mesmers desperately need a buff. That buff is pretty much impossible to implement without either turning the game upside-down or entirely reworking the profession -> any buff is being postponed

How's that hard to understand? The logic is: as long as Mesmers are playable, such a BIG change can wait. Mesmers don't suck, Mesmers are absolutely playable, they are just inferior to Necros. Like, well, every class in the game.

I'd love a buff, but won't whine if it doesn't come. I'd rather get better people to play with in the meanwhile.

But there is a "slight" difference between a crappy attribute line for a class that is one of the best options in PvE already, compared to a class with ALL it's attribute lines sucking.
And not only that - they decided that in a game where melee physicals are pretty much as good as it gets, that this game needs to see buffs to another melee weapon AND a line that buffs weapons. And while we are at it - throw in an overpowered Ancestors' (that is in the same line as Splinter) also.

When a developer has limited resources, spending them on options that already come on top is a waste.

EDIT:
And let's not forget. This "minor" change took ... what .... a few months to be implemented?
When changes take this long to happen, you don't waste even MORE time by taking on other issues that will push the big issues even further back.

BlackSephir · Feb 23, 2010, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Sins are only good for SF farms.

Hyuck hyuck.
The order is like this.
1. Play the game.
2. Talk about it.
NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

Nechrond · Feb 23, 2010, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

You read too many New Age books. Bias is a great thing in a proper place and time. When you see a girl getting raped, go on and be unbiased, just neutrally observe.

I would, because it takes only several seconds of unbiased observing to figure out what's going on, after which I can still decide to kick the guy in the head. It's better than killing him first, and THEN learning that he's her boyfriend and she just likes a good rough red-engine-going.

FC nuker and certain interrupt builds are good in NM. In HM, interrupting is way too hard, and going Me/E leaves you without AoE cracked armor. The latter shouldn't be any reason for concern; you're not SUPPOSED to nuke with a secondary Ele. The former... Whoever it was that said the faster cast speed of monsters in HM should be toned down probably posted the best idea in the thread so far.

On a somewhat related topic, I'd still like to see Fast Casting affect aftercast delay.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Hyuck hyuck.
The order is like this.
1. Play the game.
2. Talk about it.
NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

I sense a Sarcasm Detector failing hard here.

BlackSephir · Feb 23, 2010, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I sense a Sarcasm Detector failing hard here.

My only sarcasm detector broke on the second day of my browsing of INTERNET and since then I realized it's pointless to get a new one.

aspi · Feb 23, 2010, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Hammers? Really?

Hello?

But if warriors are so good why is everyone and their mother running around with 3 necro heroes

Kenzo Skunk · Feb 23, 2010, 12:55 PM // 12:55

If Anet would only bring back Mantra of Celerity, things would be much better for mesmers.

Lopezus · Feb 23, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Why people think that buffing mesmers will be gamebreaking is beyond me, there won't be mesmers faliing from the trees and jumping on you from the fridge, there won't be groups calling for mesmers etc. Mesmer class is such subpar in pve that generall buff will just make playing mesmers more pleasing and meaningful.

Martin Alvito · Feb 23, 2010, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

I chose a class that was deemed "harder to learn" when I started playing four years ago, not one that was deemed "not a good PvE primary".

Mesmer was considered an unacceptable alternative for group PvE farming by the time Sorrow's Furnace rolled out, and SF was the first time that team farming produced superior results to solo play. Even by then, it was clear that Ele and Necro were much better at putting things on the ground, and that if you wanted to disrupt a target Ranger was superior. A Ranger can provide single target shutdown and also dish out AoE damage when needed with the same bar.

There was never a slot in a popular PvE team build for a Mesmer, and even with Cry of Pain it was obvious that you were better off with an Ele's larger energy pool or a Necro's ability to replenish energy without spending skill slots.

The root problem is Fast Casting. but reworking the mechanic simply isn't an option due to the implications for PvP. The only proper point of attack is the skills, but how do you propose to provide Mesmer with spammable AoE damage without making the class overpowered? If you bring the damage of the class up to par with the Ele, then there is no reason to take an Ele because the Mesmer can spend a slot or two on highly efficient disruption unavailable to an Ele without weakening the bar.