Curse

Johny bravo · Feb 25, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Here we go again:

Just by completing the game and vanquishing on a character you can get 20 titles (legendary Guardian, vanquisher, cartographer, skill Hunter, and master of the north) The next 5 titles require some more effort but can easily be done without a terribly boring grind. This mean you can get R5GWaMM without a significant investment in grinding.

What we have here are people who want the highest tier of something without having to put in any effort. Sure I would love it if my wisdom and treasure hunter were maxed out but fact is I haven't dedicated any time to these 3 titles. The whole idea of the title system is to have something that shows off effort you put into something. I think Anet did a great job creating a system that will let someone get pretty far along the title track through normal game play. That last tier is for the dedicated Obsessive compulsives who feel the need to max every title out there. I don't understand why this is a problem. Why the hell do people feel entitled to everything (this is just a pet peeve of mine as it seems no one feels they need to work to get ahead anymore). Just because it is available doesn't mean you should just get it.

Real life example - electrician, before you can even take you test to get become licensed you need XXX amount of hours. This means you have to go out everyday and do the same thing over and over and over again (grind if you will) before you can even achieve a certain level of recognition as an electrician. You can't just walk in say yeah I put in a ceiling fan today make me an electrician.

Now back to the game world - why should someone who goes out and opens a chest occasionally be recognized as a treasure hunter, let alone a master treasure hunter. Master Treasure hunter implies that that person has dedicated a serious portion of their time to finding treasure (opening chests). is 10,000 chests all that much. I have over 5000 and maybe a couple hundred of those are from chest running.

Anet did a great job of balancing the PVE skills so that you don't have to max out title to get the benefit of the skill. If you want to max a title that is your choice and you have to decide whether you want to put in the time and effort required. We shouldn't have to dumb-down the game because some self-entitled gamers feel that the need to be recognized for insignificant accomplishments.

Lets really break this down to the basics - I want to have the best ranking but don't want to do anything extra to get it.

Terek Zelta · Feb 25, 2010, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I love your name, Johny Bravo, heheh.

But I wholeheartedly disagree. I disagree because you need to be obsessive compulsive to even max one of the EotN titles.

And the "lazy" argument is still wrong, no matter how many people say it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The funny bit is that this thread even exists given ANet's promise that GW would reward skill and not grind.

Or that as they expanded PvE content, they added in more and more grind.

If ANet is smart, they will make all titles account based, which means once you get a GWAMM, all your characters can display it. Sure, it may not be "fair" for all the oldies who grinded out GWAMM on multiple characters, but seeing as how that's insane in the first place I wouldn't set the bar by them.

The point is, for ANet to survive they MUST increase interest in their games. To have a PvE side that is primarily repetitive grind, especially given that it was advertised as the exact opposite is not conducive to maintaining a playerbase that trusts you, nor does it attract new business.

Account wide titles (all titles) would be a wise step towards making GW PvE fun again.

Yep. You can even see it, the playerbase is losing interest in the game. I think a lot of it could be solved by making the grind more reasonable.

Someone said there's more grind than content. That's unfortunately true.

I don't want busy work. I want a video game.

isildorbiafra · Feb 25, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Or in a relevant example - the way people paid to show off their max chest title when very few people had it.

Why not ask Anet to provide us with cheat codes so we can instamax all titles at will. Than we can all uninstall and go home. Hell, Anet better provide this for GW2 also upon release or i wont buy it; so i can save myself 5000 hours of play; and move on to diablo3 right away.

No matter how you put it; You are:
-Lazy
-Unskilled
-Both

I'm done arguing. This shit will never fly anyway.

isildorbiafra · Feb 25, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I don't want busy work. I want a video game.

Tip: buy a first person shooter. No grind!

Kaleban · Feb 25, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johny bravo

Here we go again:

Just by completing the game and vanquishing on a character you can get 20 titles (legendary Guardian, vanquisher, cartographer, skill Hunter, and master of the north) The next 5 titles require some more effort but can easily be done without a terribly boring grind. This mean you can get R5GWaMM without a significant investment in grinding.

LOLFAIL. I've invested thousands of hours playing the game, and have no where close to GWAMM on ANY of my characters. In fact, my MAIN is one title away from r2.

I think many would say that "scraping" the edge of every map would qualify as farming (area farming), hunting down EVERY elite skill on one character makes absolutely no sense (when is a Warrior ever going to use Locust's Fury for example?) etc., etc. It could even be said that the introduction of Hard Mode was a copout by ANet for poor balancing and the power creep they introduced.

Quote:

What we have here are people who want the highest tier of something without having to put in any effort. Sure I would love it if my wisdom and treasure hunter were maxed out but fact is I haven't dedicated any time to these 3 titles. The whole idea of the title system is to have something that shows off effort you put into something. I think Anet did a great job creating a system that will let someone get pretty far along the title track through normal game play. That last tier is for the dedicated Obsessive compulsives who feel the need to max every title out there. I don't understand why this is a problem. Why the hell do people feel entitled to everything (this is just a pet peeve of mine as it seems no one feels they need to work to get ahead anymore). Just because it is available doesn't mean you should just get it.

Lets see if you comprehend this. ITS... A... GAME! No one should have to "work" to get ahead in a game. That's why so many people are put out by the massive amount of grind involved in maxing PvE titles. And its NOT optional anymore, especially with powerful PvE skills tied into grinding out faction titles that are more or less required by guilds and PUGs to play any high end PvE content!

Quote:

Real life example - electrician, before you can even take you test to get become licensed you need XXX amount of hours. This means you have to go out everyday and do the same thing over and over and over again (grind if you will) before you can even achieve a certain level of recognition as an electrician. You can't just walk in say yeah I put in a ceiling fan today make me an electrician.

Real life example - Monopoly. You can set it up in a minute, play for hours, and and no game is ever the same twice, depending on random rolls and the people you play with.

Here's a hint - Guild Wars is not a job. Its not a career, its not work (at least it shouldn't be), but unfortunately the high level of grind makes it so.

Quote:

Now back to the game world - why should someone who goes out and opens a chest occasionally be recognized as a treasure hunter, let alone a master treasure hunter. Master Treasure hunter implies that that person has dedicated a serious portion of their time to finding treasure (opening chests). is 10,000 chests all that much. I have over 5000 and maybe a couple hundred of those are from chest running.

Again, its people like you that ruin the spirit of games in general. Not everyone in GW at this moment has had the game since release, nor has the enormous amount of free time to dedicate to title grinding, in a game that was advertised to be free of such.

While you don't HAVE to max out some titles, to even be accepted in a group requires other titles be maxed or nearly so. I.E. Norn for Ursan at one point, Fame for getting into HA matches, etc. One could H/H the entire damn game, but then that would defeat the whole point of this being an MMO in the first place.

Quote:

Anet did a great job of balancing the PVE skills so that you don't have to max out title to get the benefit of the skill. If you want to max a title that is your choice and you have to decide whether you want to put in the time and effort required. We shouldn't have to dumb-down the game because some self-entitled gamers feel that the need to be recognized for insignificant accomplishments.

Nowadays, every time a kid moves up a grade, they have a graduation. Yes it may be silly to celebrate mediocrity, but at least everyone feels good about themselves. And really, in a GAME, there shouldn't be exclusionary practices, if I wanted that, I'd watch Donald Trump say "you're fired."

And if you even play the game anymore, you'd know that your assertion of not having to max PvE titles is a bald faced lie, since most groups require r10 in various PvE and PvP titles, such as Asuran and Luxon/Kurzick. The Faction titles not so much, but it still requires a LOT of grind to acquire maxed faction titles in EoTN.

Quote:

Lets really break this down to the basics - I want to have the best ranking but don't want to do anything extra to get it.

The basics is, people want to play the game for fun. ANet screwed this up by designing PvE titles that gave advantages, which of course then ranked players not by skill but by time invested. Its the age old problem of being underqualified, you don't have the experience, and can't get a chance to acquire the experience.

If ANet wanted it the way you describe, as a job and boring and pointless, then the way they've gone about it is a pretty good attempt. Basically causing the entire playerbase who don't have the ability to sink 16 hours a day on a game grinding titles to H/H their way through the game. They've wrecked PvE, thanks to chumps such as yourself, and giving in to elitist garbage and exclusionary practices.

This is SUPPOSED to be a friggin' game, not Wall Street or some corporation. In further discussion please recognize this and dispense with any notion or comparisons to work, thank you.

upier · Feb 25, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Why not ask Anet to provide us with cheat codes so we can instamax all titles at will. Than we can all uninstall and go home. Hell, Anet better provide this for GW2 also upon release or i wont buy it; so i can save myself 5000 hours of play; and move on to diablo3 right away.

No matter how you put it; You are:
-Lazy
-Unskilled
-Both

I'm done arguing. This shit will never fly anyway.

Because that's not what's being argued.
And with some basic reading comprehension skills, you'd see that.
All you are doing now is making dumbass assumptions and then building your arguments on those assumptions.

Captain Bulldozer · Feb 25, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

I've thought about this, and I think I can now provide my personal answer the original question:

Grind is fine when it involves thoroughly exploring the available content. Grind is unacceptable when it requires REPEATED* thorough exploration of the available content with little to no incentive.

*How often repeated is certainly open to debate

Take an example: Although getting the cartographer title is grind, its ok because it involves you having to go and see every pixel in all of GW. Being asked to do the cartographer for a 2nd time, is acceptable, as it will also grant the 2nd character the ability to go anywhere in GW and have a completely uncovered map. (Good for those who want to play this character or farm with it).

Alliance titles, on the other hand can only be maxed by repeatedly doing the same things over and over and over (and over....). Even if you have done all of vanquishing, all the quests and played a decent amount of AB on a character from every class (even of every gender!) you will not be close to actually maxing the title. Thus I say any account-wide title in PvE that requires more than 10 (the number of classes in GW) times the number of available points for doing every point granting opportunity is excessive and should be changed.

For those who want to be set apart by their excessive grinding, I suggest making things like GWAMM require only certain levels (reasonably chosen using the above constraints) of titles to be fulfilled, and simply remove the level cap on all titles. You want to show us how great you are? Get that rank 100 survivor. Just make rank 3 be good enough for GWAMM. They've already done this with many titles in the HoM, which is at the moment better set up and friendly to those of us who want to play more than 1 character.

Now, yes I realize my definition up there is fuzzy about consumable based titles. My reply is that there shouldn't even be titles for eating sweets, staying drunk or lighting things on fire and making loud noises.

Also, please keep in mind that I intend this only to apply to PvE focused titles... PvP titles are quite different (though some of those should probably be changed in more intelligent ways as well). Good hunting.

isildorbiafra · Feb 25, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because that's not what's being argued.
And with some basic reading comprehension skills, you'd see that.
All you are doing now is making dumbass assumptions and then building your arguments on those assumptions.

Your right. But this shit still wont fly. So save your breath.

Tullzinski · Feb 25, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

mouse left click broken = too much grind.

Captain Bulldozer · Feb 25, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Your right. But this shit still wont fly. So save your breath.

I'd politely suggest you take your own advice. You've had your say. For here on, either be constructive or STFU and GTFO.

Rocky Raccoon · Feb 25, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

This whole thread is about grind, but seeing that we might each have a different opinion of what grind actually is. Please define grind.

Captain Bulldozer · Feb 25, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky Raccoon

This whole thread is about grind, but seeing that we might each have a different opinion of what grind actually is. Please define grind.

From the official wiki:

"Grind is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game. In Guild Wars, these features are usually optional and include titles, armor (through crafting materials or gold), or other prestige items. Since the level cap is relatively low, level-grinding is uncommon; however, the Survivor and Defender of Ascalon titles do involve grinding in order to level up and gain experience points.

While some of these features do not provide a gameplay advantage to players, there are exceptions; for example, some Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North titles improve PvE-only skills and allow the buying of armor, consumables, or weapons."

Archress Shayleigh · Feb 25, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

complete the same thing twice as fast for half the cost?

Twice as fast- that's already meaning it's 50%. Half the cost, another 50%(from the already cut down 50%). How did we get to 25% of the title exactly? Think before you type. You can always press Backspace or Delete.

Rocky Raccoon · Feb 25, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

From the official wiki:

"Grind is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game. In Guild Wars, these features are usually optional and include titles, armor (through crafting materials or gold), or other prestige items. Since the level cap is relatively low, level-grinding is uncommon; however, the Survivor and Defender of Ascalon titles do involve grinding in order to level up and gain experience points.

While some of these features do not provide a gameplay advantage to players, there are exceptions; for example, some Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North titles improve PvE-only skills and allow the buying of armor, consumables, or weapons."

The bolded is very subjective and will differ from person to person.

upier · Feb 25, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Your right. But this shit still wont fly. So save your breath.

Considering how too much grind is pretty much the core of all PvE issues it would be advisable for A.Net to finally look at this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky Raccoon

This whole thread is about grind, but seeing that we might each have a different opinion of what grind actually is. Please define grind.

Hence why I asked.
But instead of resorting to an abstract definition of grind, I would suggest that we define grind with real examples so if anyone form A.Net happens to look at this, they see what are the issues that are bugging us the most.
As I have said - personally I find the consumables-titles, titles which have a PvE effect (outside of Sunspear) and Unlucky to be way to much grind-focused. And of course - LDoA, but that's the one I always forget about due to being Pre-only.

EDIT:
IDing golds also.
In my mind I just put it into the "has an effect on PvE" with Chest, Lucky, PvE-skill lines, but since I explicitly named Unlucky, this one deserves to be listed also.

Tullzinski · Feb 25, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Hence why I asked.
But instead of resorting to an abstract definition of grind, I would suggest that we define grind with real examples so if anyone form A.Net happens to look at this, they see what are the issues that are bugging us the most.
As I have said - personally I find the consumables-titles, titles which have a PvE effect (outside of Sunspear) and Unlucky to be way to much grind-focused. And of course - LDoA, but that's the one I always forget about due to being Pre-only.

If ANET sees this they owe me a new mouse from double clicking all the consumables.

Gennadios · Feb 25, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

LDoA was NOT grind.

Pre has it's own economy, and given that the bosses were the highest level mobs in there, you were basically endgame farming and producing wealth for a large part of it.

Once the death leveling came in... it's really only an hour of work per day. Spend 30 minutes in the evening doing the setup, 10 minutes in the morning killing off the highest level group, and then 10 minutes 8 hours later killing the rest.

The process didn't have a chance to get tedious because by it's very nature, you could only spend about an hour a day on death leveling related activities.

The only pure grind in the game are the terrible 3 consumable titles, as well as those batsh*t insane chest/gold based ones.

upier · Feb 25, 2010, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

If ANET sees this they owe me a new mouse from double clicking all the consumables.

If they see this and do something about it, "I" am getting you a new mouse!

Zodiac Meteor · Feb 25, 2010, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Considering how too much grind is pretty much the core of all PvE issues it would be advisable for A.Net to finally look at this.

Hence why I asked.
But instead of resorting to an abstract definition of grind, I would suggest that we define grind with real examples so if anyone form A.Net happens to look at this, they see what are the issues that are bugging us the most.
As I have said - personally I find the consumables-titles, titles which have a PvE effect (outside of Sunspear) and Unlucky to be way to much grind-focused. And of course - LDoA, but that's the one I always forget about due to being Pre-only.

Totally agree, very, VERY poor rewards for the grinding. Hell I grinding my r3 hero just so I can have the /rank emote. Nothing else, I stopped HA as soon as I got what I want. Why not have exotic weapons, emotes or exotic armor only available to those with high titles. A special hero for max GWAMM, almost like titles were tossed at the last second.

snaek · Feb 25, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So when do you feel that game activities become grind? And how much grind is too much grind for you? And would the game be better or worse off if we'd see some changes in this regards?

when that activity becomes no longer mentally stimulating. each activity has a certain amount of difficulty or challenge factor. initial playings, one has to overcome that challenge. once that challenge is overcome, that is when grind begins--however only a light grind. it is not a "full grind" until that user has mastered a near 100% success rate in that activity, and that is when i draw the line and no longer want to play.