Curse

englitdaudelin · Feb 26, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by scratchdude

Agreed. But as a Dervish player, I think e-management for a derv is just unefficient. The only good build I have successfully used is a ZV build, with which I'll never run out of energy.
Anyway, dervishes seem very underestimated in PUGs. True, many classes with overpowered PVE builds will get picked up before. But let's face it, a derv can be very efficient in terms of dmg, just not to the same extent.

The implied assumption here is that "never running out of energy" = efficient; that a limited energy pool = inefficient.

Not sure I buy that at all.

Mysticism should be pouring plenty of energy back to you as enchantments end--either you end them yourself, they time out, or are removed by enemies.

Plus there's the second class to consider: Mesmer and Ranger both have stances that return energy upon taking certain types of damage. Shouts from Warrior and Paragon lines can return energy as well.

I agree that the reliance of the class on energy, as opposed to including the use of adrenaline skills, seems to be a really obvious oversight here in the class's design. Unlike, say, assasins, the dervish seems to be obviously a long-term frontliner, a "tank," or whatever term you'd like--it's supposed to be in the middle of stuff, like a warrior. So, were they designed on purpose to play noticeably differently, without adrenaline at all?

And I think asking for ranger buffs so that bigger numbers go across the screen is misguided--it's never seemed to be the fundamental purpose of them. Splinter barrage is the dominant build at the moment, I think, for groups and areas where aggro control will create nice clusters. But hero/hench vanquishes without human tanks? Not so effective, when the critters are everywhere. Conditions are really effective at cutting HM armor and HP down to manageable levels so that the H/H can zip through them.

Ugh · Feb 26, 2010, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaal

(And on that note, in areas where interrupts are needed, my Ranger gets picked up pretty easily.)

That's probably about 3% of all the areas.

Quote:

I'd recommend running R/E with Incendiary Arrows, Conjure Flame and Ignite Arrows (I use "I am the Strongest" as well). Most of the time that's what I use in HM, but I also have a BHA, a BM and even an SOS. Plenty of options for a Ranger, you just have to be patient and persistent while looking for a PUG.

Incendiary is quite mediorce. Conjure Flame means you have to use elemental damage, which isn't good in HM. Ignite Arrows is also elemental and is counterproductive because it causes enemies to scatter (thus making AoE less effective). "IAtS!" is below average because it can't be maintained; you'll usually only get to use it once or twice per mob. BHA is good is a very limited number of areas. BMs are okayish, but inferior to DPS from other physicals. SoS shouldn't be ran on a ranger.

Phew.

Rangers:

Don't buff them into healers because healing in PvE is already covered by ERs, N/Rts, monks, rits, and to a lesser extent, paragons. We don't need more healers. Instead, ranger party support should come from something unique and already native to the class: nature rituals.

Change nature rituals to be less inconvenient and be more useful to your party rather than the mobs. These are some good suggestions, IMO.

Since bows weren't meant for damage, give rangers a viable DPS option through Beast Mastery.

Make Mel's Assault act the way the description says or raise the AoE damage.
Take away the +3 regen of NRA, which sucks, and give them literally anything other than that. Armor boost, health bonus, additional damage, anything.
Split the life stealing from HaO between the ranger and the pet so B/P groups are rezzed as V/P groups. Maybe make the life stealing only apply while weilding a bow.

I dunno what to do with traps, so I'll spit a bunch of ideas out at once.

Make Expertise affect all traps.
Buff damage up by about 5-10 for all damage-dealing traps other than Dust Trap. Or, make all trap damage armor-ignoring.
Reduce the recharge of all 30 second traps by 5 seconds and all 20 second traps by 2 seconds.
Reduce the cost of Spike Trap, Barbed Trap, and Tripwire by 5 energy.
Change functionality of Trapper's Focus to Stance. For 30 seconds, your Traps recharge 25...40% faster and activate 25...33% faster. This Stance ends if you successfully hit with an attack.

Dervishes:

Don't have one, so I don't really know what they need. Make enchantment juggling better (skills like Pious Assault), maybe buff Mysticism, do other stuff.

Mesmers:

No idea.

shoyon456 · Feb 26, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

The OP needs to be hit over the head. As stated DP would hinder any class. Plus if you have strong monks/party setup, you shouldn't be dying period. The problem is not necessarily the energy.

The problems with Dervish are :

Mysticism - Health gain is weak and negligent at best. Drop the health gain for a slight damage modification, such as 2 holy damage per rank to adjacent foes when an enchantment on you ends. The advantage War/Sin have over dervs using the scythe are crit strikes/strength, which offer direct melee damage augmentation whereas the current Mysticism does not.

Scythes - the wildly wide/high damage range begs for it to be abused by critical strikes and makes it unpredictable and unreliable for their main user: Dervs. In PvP, isn't a reliable skill-based DPS important? Instead with scythes its completely based around luck.

Few effective builds, because relative to the number of available skills, most are plain useless. The original and factions characters have more skills, and less junk options. Take a look at Mysticism skills primarily, the avatars are gimmicky and often not even worth using despite the permanent upkeep in PvE. Aside from this many myst skills are trash.

Amy Awien · Feb 27, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nymph of Meliai

... increasingly find it difficult to get into HM groups ...

Enough said, the conclusion is obvious: ANet doesn't want cooperative gameplay. PuGs are worthless anyway so why would anyone care about being in them, H&H or guild groups all the way.

shoyon456 · Feb 27, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Enough said, the conclusion is obvious: ANet doesn't want cooperative gameplay. PuGs are worthless anyway so why would anyone care about being in them, H&H or guild groups all the way.

Except that you can't H/H UW/FoW/DoA/Urgoz/Deep. This is why despite all my suggestions, although I failed to on my previous post, I always say "OR they could just allow full hero teams."

If they allowed full hero teams, I wouldn't give a damn about whether or not they actually do comprehensive skill/overall class balances. But if they're going to force me to play with other people for high-end PvE, don't make the Dervish so utterly redundant and useless compared to other classes that it is nearly impossible to get into a group. This is why I say the farming metas need to be nerfed, because they keep specific classes out of groups. Balanced is the best in my view.

This is also why I worry for GW2, although this is a bit off topic, but supposedly high-end PvE content must be done in a group for GW2, like GW1. Well if they couldn't get the freakin' balance right in GW1 and still fail classes like the Dervish, then how do they intend to get it right in GW2? There's no proof they'll get it right a second time just by getting a brand new toy, and at the very least I want to see them make some meaningful balances for underused classes to show that they know what they're doing in terms of skill balance now.

Desert Rose · Feb 27, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Rangers:

(...)

Nice and thoughtful changes; I especially liked the part to change Beast Mastery into the DPS attribute of a ranger. We should start a thread about "How rangers could be buffed in PvE" to collect such suggestions.

Cuilan · Feb 27, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Enough said, the conclusion is obvious: ANet doesn't want cooperative gameplay. PuGs are worthless anyway so why would anyone care about being in them, H&H or guild groups all the way.

For general PvE, PUGs do the job and you get to meet new people of various skill levels (including those that may be better). Also, not everyone enjoys AI or is lucky to be in large guild (of course there are many factors, not just size). So, how bout them rangers...

Catchphrase · Feb 27, 2010, 04:19 AM // 04:19

I believe the dervish energy gain issue can be resolved if most of the enchantments' duration are measured predominantly not by time but number of attacks. The more pressing issue for dervish is that there have yet to be any seen benefits of self removal of enchantments other than triggering of Mysticism and some paltry PbAOE damage from the enchantment.

Cuilan · Feb 27, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Doesn't change the fact that dervish skills don't work all that well together. Haven't seen any really good PvE dervish bombers, have you?

IronSheik · Feb 27, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Doesn't change the fact that dervish skills don't work all that well together. Haven't seen any really good PvE dervish bombers, have you?

Unnerf Pious Assault and bring back enchant juggling. Melail you remember that, since yknow, know more than me about dervishses.

The Drunkard · Feb 27, 2010, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nymph of Meliai

There are two classes that increasingly find it difficult to get into HM groups - they are not necros and rits. So why have necros and rits been given a buff when these two classes have little difficulty in getting into a group. Were it not for my guild that favours come as you please balanced builds, my ranger would struggle to get into any group.

As mentioned in the mesmer QQ thread some one (can't remember the name) had a point that necros and rits were much easier to buff than mesmers because the only "balance" needed was pushing numbers. I can imagine this would also apply for rangers and dervishes, since both have limited niches in general pve play.

Introverted Dimensions · Feb 27, 2010, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nymph of Meliai

Ranger: The easiest way of boosting the ranger is simply to remove the conditions feature from barrage. Barrage is the main aoe skill that a ranger can use. Unfortunately, when using barrage, it makes virtually all the other skill slots practically useless in terms of ranger skills - they instead tend to be filled with skills such as splinter weapon, and the various EotN skills. Alternatively boosting the stance skills of the ranger would make it a better option for tanking, especially with the elemental damage reduction that rangers have.
New skills could help, more aoe options would be useful - perhaps exploding arrows that do not scatter or cause substantial damage equivalent to other aoe skills that eles, necros and mesmers possess (i.e. above 60 damage).
Or something done to make traps more useful.
The alternative is to bolster the energy saving feature that rangers have to make them better options as casters - but this gets away from the point of making ranger skills more useful.
Finally, in keeping with the storyline of GW, the ranger could be given more healing type skills - woodlore etc. that provide an attractive alternative to ritualists and monks... for example how about group troll, group instant condition removal with added heal, camouflage that allows the group to pass any foe without creating agro... and so on.

The idea of having barrage not remove preparations is awesome but think about it, it'll make the class pretty overpowered don't you think? Maybe they could reduce the CD On incendiary arrows to 1 or 2 secs.

Party-wide support or heals by ranger with the use of nature seems like a cool idea lol. Would be nice to see something like that happen. Skills like healing spring could be used.

YunSooJin · Feb 27, 2010, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Doesn't change the fact that dervish skills don't work all that well together. Haven't seen any really good PvE dervish bombers, have you?

I assume you weren't here when dervishes were first introduced. Buffed dervish enchantments is a pretty retarded sight. (and a buffed mysticism)

Essence Snow · Feb 27, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Except that you can't H/H UW/FoW/DoA/Urgoz/Deep. This is why despite all my suggestions, although I failed to on my previous post, I always say "OR they could just allow full hero teams."

If they allowed full hero teams, I wouldn't give a damn about whether or not they actually do comprehensive skill/overall class balances. But if they're going to force me to play with other people for high-end PvE, don't make the Dervish so utterly redundant and useless compared to other classes that it is nearly impossible to get into a group. This is why I say the farming metas need to be nerfed, because they keep specific classes out of groups. Balanced is the best in my view.

This~very good point.......I do miss my farms, but for the greater good and the sake of my other "lesser known" characters....I agree.

Amy Awien · Feb 27, 2010, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Introverted Dimensions

The idea of having barrage not remove preparations is awesome but think about it, it'll make the class pretty overpowered don't you think?

It would indeed, imagine IA's combo with Ingnite + EBSoH on Barrage.... Might be tempered by removing Wilderness and Marks preps when using Barage.

Quote:

Maybe they could reduce the CD On incendiary arrows to 1 or 2 secs.

Sounds good, the trick with SQ currently takes too many skill slots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

This is also why I worry for GW2, although this is a bit off topic, but supposedly high-end PvE content must be done in a group for GW2, like GW1.

Indeed, given the poor balance between the classes in high-end PvE and their inability (or unwillingness) to address this problem there is no reason to believe they'll succeed in GW2 where they failed in GW1.

Abedeus · Feb 27, 2010, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Who says rangers were meant for AoE because they have one aoe elite? Rangers healing...? Then warriors should have group healing right? Don't forget necros, and eles, and mesmers, they want to heal too.

You have just kicked yourself in the balls, haven't you? N/Mos are better healers/protters on heroes than Players are, and E/Mos have stronger heals and better e-management while still protecting the frontliners.

Cuilan · Feb 27, 2010, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

I assume you weren't here when dervishes were first introduced. Buffed dervish enchantments is a pretty retarded sight. (and a buffed mysticism)

Haven't seen anyone here asking for a retarded sight to see.

Holy Toys · Feb 27, 2010, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Iv been reading this about rangers and im appaled...are you guys really content with a 60 dmg hit?!

My main is a ranger and iv played him for nearly all my time in GW, and now he's gwamm (30 maxed) so has done all of these HM stuff you guys are on about.
Heres my build i made myself a few years ago, with maxed eotn titles you can easily bump out 200-400 dmg per hit in HM, with good defense aswell. This build does require good e management and you gotta have your armour fully e modded. Works well to have a n/rt healer with splinter weapon if your using a zealous bow.

1) I am the strongest
2) Expert's Dexterity
3) Read The Wind (Can be swapped if you really want)
4) Asura Scan
5) BUH
6) Keen Arrow
7) Sloth Hunters Shot
8) Optional shot depending on the area and the make up of your team, i tend to use either
- Pain Inverter (You'll have to drop I am the strongest tho or BUH tho)
- Lightning Reflexes
- A speed boost (Dodge etc)
- Rebirth or some other hard res that teleports.

I have other varients which do nearly same, but they hit adjacent foes but cause less damage. Il post it in a few hours tho.

Hope this helped you rangers out there looking for a helping hand

Redvex · Feb 27, 2010, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Nature ritual must have a meaning to exist. Lacerate equinox and other unuseful spirit.

Ugh · Feb 27, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy Toys

1) I am the strongest
2) Expert's Dexterity
3) Read The Wind (Can be swapped if you really want)
4) Asura Scan
5) BUH
6) Keen Arrow
7) Sloth Hunters Shot
8) Optional shot depending on the area and the make up of your team, i tend to use either
- Pain Inverter (You'll have to drop I am the strongest tho or BUH tho)
- Lightning Reflexes
- A speed boost (Dodge etc)
- Rebirth or some other hard res that teleports.

Asuran Scan is pretty much essential for all single-target physical damage builds. "IAtS!" isn't very good because it's not maintainable and you don't have Asuran Scan to make it better. For single-target ranger DPS, I would recommend Glass Arrows or PrepShot over Expert's Dexterity. "BUH!" isn't good because it's not maintainable. Keen Arrow isn't very good because critical hit chance is lowered against foes of higher levels. Sloth Hunter's Shot has a long recharge, but it's okay. Dodge is unnecessary and Rebirth is the only hard res that teleports (right?).

Glass Arrows works well with Needling Shot or with Point Blank Shot and Zojun's Shot. PrepShot works well with Penetrating and Sundering Attack. Both should use Asuran Scan. Drunken Master is nice, too.

All that aside, rangers still don't have good DPS compared to sins and warriors and such (not that I think they should).

Quote:

The idea of having barrage not remove preparations is awesome but think about it, it'll make the class pretty overpowered don't you think? Maybe they could reduce the CD On incendiary arrows to 1 or 2 secs.

With Ignite Arrows + EBSoH? Barrage and Splinter work well together because neither causes scatter. Ignite + Barrage would work well for one shot and then the group would scatter, thus making the ranger less useful than he would have been if he had just spammed Barrage.

Although that's just for general PvE, it would probably be OP in tank 'n' spank situations.