Curse

Chthon · Mar 09, 2010, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

That is an amazing and tasty looking script, sir.

I'd love to see this suggestion on GW2G implemented: natural selection of skills. That thread also has very tasty sauce.

That's pretty amazing. Using genetic algorithms to balance the monsters never occurred to me, but now that I see it, I have to agree that it's simply brilliant.

Leslie · Mar 09, 2010, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Bingo. Your explanation gives the reason why GW is prone to speedclearing and why everything is so 'easy' in PvE. Static mobs, all information readily available on the wiki, the fact the game is nearly 5 years old has lead to this. The same reason why Hard Mode isn't hard per se, just more annoying.

So yes, instead of nerfing OP skill after OP skill, Anet could revamp PvE for a bit. They are able to build good bars: the Stone Summit and Char in EotN all got decent builds, individually and teamwise. The question is, will they do it?

I agree, problem is Anet fix gimmicks with gimmicks. Uhoh 55 monks! let's make dying nightmares. Uhoh people use permaform! let's make skeletons of dhuuuuurrrr.

You know, Anet don't even need to build better bars for their monsters. Remember the henchman skillbar competition? Perhaps they could simply do something similar here, where players improve the skillbars of monsters instead. Honestly I think what the players come up with would be much better anyway.

EragonSorceror · Mar 09, 2010, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

That's pretty amazing. Using genetic algorithms to balance the monsters never occurred to me, but now that I see it, I have to agree that it's simply brilliant.

I agree. That is one very cool idea that I could definitely see working.
Also, something to think about when talking about the "need" to nerf speed clears: they are one of only two situations that PUGs still are easy to find in(the other is Zaishen Missions). Thats why I love them, in addition to the beauty of everybody having a known role and the team work involved. Killing speed clears is a big step towards completely eradicating PUGs.
Just something to consider. Speed clears are one of my favorite aspects of the game, and it is certainly not just because of the money.

Jk)Phoenix · Mar 09, 2010, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I could agree with the topic maker... it's a nice idea... but it can't work alone...

along with a "skill/brain update" for monsters there must be other 2 updates:

lowered the dmg of monsters with normal attacks (it's unbelievable that me monking with a wand i do 2-6 dmg per hit, a monk monster do 50-70 dmg per hit and a monk boss monster do 150-190 dmg per hit... it's just unbelievable)

Incresed of double or triple the drop rate everywhere... because double or triple the challange to complete "whatever" MUST GIVE ME A BETTER AND RICHER DROP!

ps: also think about it... to slow down a speed clear of 30 mins u will CERTAINLY slow down a normal team of 2 hours... (make ur conclusions also about this)

Xenomortis · Mar 09, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk)Phoenix

ps: also think about it... to slow down a speed clear of 30 mins u will CERTAINLY slow down a normal team of 2 hours... (make ur conclusions also about this)

Will you? I think there's precedent to the contrary.
Before the Dhuum update (more specifically, before the Skeleton's of Dhuum were added and the UW mobs got altered), a speed clear team could clear the Underworld in under half an hour.
How long did it take a "normal" or "balanced" team? An hour? 90 minutes? 2 hours?
After the Dhuum update me and a group of friends and guildies have done the UW in around 2 hours (pretty sure we've managed below it, but I can't find the screenshots) and Dhuum himself can take 10-20 minutes. I doubt we would have been much faster before the update (although a couple of the quests might have been easier).
But how much time did it take a Speed Clear team to do it? I don't think they ever managed 30 minutes.

I don't actually know the times, feel free to correct me and potentially rip my argument asunder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That's pretty amazing. Using genetic algorithms to balance the monsters never occurred to me, but now that I see it, I have to agree that it's simply brilliant.

I agree that the idea has potential. It is far too late for this game though.
There are problems however, something like that would require a lot of observation, processing power and occasional interference.
The idea itself would also need refining - it currently favours outright damage and self-healing builds. That's not necessarily the sort of thing you want to promote. The survivability of one character/NPC currently depends greatly on the ability of their monks. Strong defensive monk builds don't inflict meaningful amounts of damage on enemy teams and because most players will want to spike a monk down quickly, he probably isn't going to live long enough for the algorithm to have any meaningful affect.
Indeed, all support based builds would generally be eliminated and how do you handle skills like Order of Pain?

I suppose my point is you need to evaluate team builds (enemies are grouped into parties) - so you want to apply the algorithm to the entire team, not just individual bars.
It's crude and messy, but all forms of "evolution" are crude.

I would also recommend that such a method only be applied to a few areas and it would certainly need a lot of trialing. I also doubt it's even viable from a technical point of view.

pumpkin pie · Mar 09, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

if making different monsters appear at the same location is difficult, how about randomizing the monster's skill bar?

Jk)Phoenix · Mar 09, 2010, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Will you? I think there's precedent to the contrary.
Before the Dhuum update (more specifically, before the Skeleton's of Dhuum were added and the UW mobs got altered), a speed clear team could clear the Underworld in under half an hour.
How long did it take a "normal" or "balanced" team? An hour? 90 minutes? 2 hours?
After the Dhuum update me and a group of friends and guildies have done the UW in around 2 hours (pretty sure we've managed below it, but I can't find the screenshots) and Dhuum himself can take 10-20 minutes. I doubt we would have been much faster before the update (although a couple of the quests might have been easier).
But how much time did it take a Speed Clear team to do it? I don't think they ever managed 30 minutes.

I don't actually know the times, feel free to correct me and potentially rip my argument asunder

Before the update of 25th record run was 22 mins, 30mins average, so kinda like 15 mins more than before adding dhuum skeles

Now it's still a work in progress but an SC test is around 1h, when build is completed will probably be under 45 mins again so... and this update was done only to "damage" speed clears without affecting the balanced game

Xenomortis · Mar 09, 2010, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk)Phoenix

Before the update of 25th record run was 22 mins, 30mins average, so kinda like 15 mins more than before adding dhuum skeles

Now it's still a work in progress but an SC test is around 1h, when build is completed will probably be under 45 mins again so... and this update was done only to "damage" speed clears without affecting the balanced game

Well then my point still stands, although I am assuming the SC teams don't spend 20 minutes on Dhuum (whereas a normal team is much more likely to).

Jk)Phoenix · Mar 09, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

generally dhuum takes 7-9 mins depends on how many PI the ritu catch on his judgment

Deakon · Mar 09, 2010, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I still think restricting campaign specific skills to their respective campaigns (in much the same way the PvE only skills are restricted from PvP) would rectify any imbalances. Then there wouldn't be but a minimal need to revisit skills due to OP builds. I also think that such an approach would be fairly easy to implement. Or at least easier than trying to revamp monster skill bars or adding new content to make things harder. Just an opinion.

Chthon · Mar 10, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

how do you handle skills like Order of Pain?

Order of Pain counts as 1/2 damage done by the caster and 1/2 damage done by the attacker. For that matter, you should probably count healing and mitigation (as measured by the difference between damage received and damage that would have been received) as equivalent to damage on a different axis.

However, we do seem to be heading into a data gathering operation that is going to cost significant cycles.

Trinity Fire Angel · Mar 10, 2010, 05:13 AM // 05:13

i agree with the OP. Personally i don;t find PvE very challenging and can;t be bothered playing PvE much anymore because PvP actually is the only challenge worth left in the game that doesn;t involve grind that is varied.

Let me expand a little; mosters in PvE are noobs. They all run noob bars that are no better than a hamstorm or frenzy-healsig warrior in RA. i agree with one post, a group of iway trolls with pets, ranger-spike spiders, bloodspike scarabs, etc etc would be awesome in PvE. originally GW's PvE was a training ground for PvP (HA, GvG), and thus many of the builds in prophecies reflected skills that the devs at the time thought to be "good builds". however, as we now travel thru guildwars, many of these builds are out-dated and are just plain noob. there is no balance in any of the mobs and many of the monster skills bars are just plain incomplete.

however, the one thing i totally enjoyed about EoTN was the fact that many creatures used some excellent builds with secondary professions. Where do you think the shockwave-spike came from in GvG? I am sure this idea was taken from the Ceratadons as this build came about not long after EoTN was released. I was also happy to see that there were a lot of builds in EoTN that were taken from PvP type builds.

Lets see some more PvE updates with respect to updated builds. That way as players we can start going out into PvE more often with a plan and a balanced team rather than running around discording and speed-clearing everything.

Kashrlyyk · Mar 10, 2010, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

....

In Prophecies, charr, centaurs, stone summit, white mantle, and mursaat.
In Factions, Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, warden, naga or outcasts.
In Nightfall, Kournan troops, harpies, undead, bugs.
In EotN, a brief look at dungeons.
The Shadow Army. Some Underworld critters.

And that is actually it. This would make adjust the most common foes across the continents, thus providing each region with something that is a half decent challenge. Not as big a problem as one might think. And in the process, mobs get tougher, PvE gets more challenging, and the game gets more involved. Which is good, no?
....

Depending on the area you are talking about a few hundred enemies. Which if packed in groups of 8 are up to several dozen groups. And every one of those should be a "decent challenge". You are asking to force PvE players to fight dozens of semi-hard PvP matches in a row without changing skillbars or being able to save the progress. How long should it take to get from outpost A to outpost B so that the enemies are challenging enough? Because that is what is going to happen: it just takes longer and you might actually fail at it,which makes it even longer.

And the same goes for the randomized skills idea or hard rez skills for every monster: up to 400 enemies in one area. How long should a vanquish take for you to be happy with the difficulty?

Amy Awien · Mar 10, 2010, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I still think restricting campaign specific skills to their respective campaigns (in much the same way the PvE only skills are restricted from PvP) would rectify any imbalances. ...

But then only characters with core classes could do all campaigns, Rits and Sins could only do Factions and Nightfall, Dervs and Paragons only Nightfall - they might try EotN but with only EotN skills and no elite?

Jk)Phoenix · Mar 10, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I still think restricting campaign specific skills to their respective campaigns (in much the same way the PvE only skills are restricted from PvP) would rectify any imbalances. Then there wouldn't be but a minimal need to revisit skills due to OP builds. I also think that such an approach would be fairly easy to implement. Or at least easier than trying to revamp monster skill bars or adding new content to make things harder. Just an opinion.

this is the most ***** idea i ever heard.

Mireles · Mar 11, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Wow they did it... kinda.... i cant remember the last time Anet did a big monster skill update.

http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...es/default.php