Curse

Bryant Again · Mar 07, 2010, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Balancing PvE would first require taking the really dumb things out of it: ditch PvE and monster skills, get rid of consumables, lower the levels of higher-end enemies, and ditching title effects just to name a few.

Then comes the tougher part: maintaining PvE to be challenging. This requires a re-work of nearly every single mob in the game. They need to have better synergy, they need to have team builds that actually make sense, and they'll need to be maintained (because skill balances affect everyone, monsters included. You certainly wouldn't run a skill that became useless through a nerf, so why would they?)

Then you get to worry about farming, how much of it you want, and so on and so forth. In a supposedly balanced game, should one character with one skill bar be able to take on several?

own age myname · Mar 07, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Just stop trying to "balance" PvE. It took ANet 5 f'ing months for a skillupdate and SF is still powerful. Just leave things as is until GW2.

Cuilan · Mar 07, 2010, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

Just stop trying to "balance" PvE. It took ANet 5 f'ing months for a skillupdate and SF is still powerful. Just leave things as is until GW2.

Because the Guild Wars community and players need more grief and negativity. That's the answer to selling sequels.

There are a lot of things different with Guild Wars 2, so don't expect people will be standing around waiting for a game they may not even like.

drkn · Mar 07, 2010, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

1) Every class has a niche. There is something that the class can do better than every other profession, or at least as well as every other profession in that niche.

2) Every niche filled by a class is useful, and each class is therefore desirable to take in some form of broad teamplay.

I'll add a version of Arkantos's comment as a third condition:

3) Players are required to take multiple characters filling several niches to complete areas. Degenerate builds driven by a single overpowered skill are limited to specialized tasks such as a specific mission or specific run. Old school 4-5 player Sorrow's Furnace farming is fine. 8 player SoO speed clears powered by SF are not.

this.
the best comment i've ever found regarding balance in gw.

when it comes to balancing certain skills...
broken/overpowered => 1) a skill (or several skills, builds, etc) that enable to complete (nearly) everything in game: SF, 600/smite, discord, so on; 2) a skill (...) that is always present in builds (either all classes' builds or just one class' builds, regardless of location and team composition) and provide very strong support/damage: SY!; [...]
underpowered => 1) a skill (...) that is never used because it's much weaker than other skills from the same attribute line; 2) a skill (...) that is never used because it has no synergy with other skills or that synergy is much harder to achieve and weaker when finally achieved than other options; [...]
balanced => 1) generally, a skill/build that is useful in certain locations (or, should i say: type of locations), in team compositions, while not being superior to all other options and not giving players the ability to run/rush the whole game

@down

Quote:

Sorry but I don't know what you are talking about.

so play a real 'pve' fps/rts, not cs :rofl:

Age · Mar 07, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The hell are you talking about? From the PvE side, RTS and FPS games do get more challenging as you progress through them. Even the sims gets more challenging in some aspects as you progress through it.

RTS - Age of Mythology Campaign:

You kill random groups of enemies and taking over small bases at the beginning. As you progress through the game, you take on bigger armies, you take over stronger forts. That = challenge.

FPS - CoD: World at War Campaign:

You go from escaping a small Japanese island with little resistance to taking back Berlin from shittons of enemies. That = challenge.

The Sims (story mode, I guess?):

At the start it's easy, you get a job and start a life pretty much. As you progress, you need to keep your character happy and healthy while dealing with multiple relationships and starting and maintaining a happy family. It's still easy, but it gets more challenging.

Sorry, but you really have no clue what you're talking about.

I still disagree as with most they don't what about CS,NFS or Flight Simulator.There isn't an RTS Game doesn't get more challenging as you play through it.

Sorry but I don't know what you are talking about.

asb · Mar 07, 2010, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Nerfing:
1. Look at PvE-Meta
2. Make PvE-Meta less effective
3. Wait 3 weeks
4. goto:1

Buffing:
a. Create a poll for each profession, asking which skills are the most unused
b. Buff top 5 skills
c. Wait till 2
d. goto:a

Stop when PvE-Meta gets so bloated that it will loose it's meaning. ;p

That's taking the yin-yang-jackhammer-method, but given the resources GW1 has/will have, anything else, like a broader skillset rework or a big monster-balance would be unrealistic.

Btw. Has there ever been a poll like the one described above? I'd really like to see how that would turn out.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 07, 2010, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

This has been said 100 times, and I will say it for the 101th.

In My Opinion:

1. I dont care about gimmick builds/farming builds, but when they affect the 'casual' (I use casual loosely before 'lol I play 2 hours every week and I only play SF that doesn't affect me lolz lie theorycraft to flame you!' invades the thread) players, it becomes a problem. Its hard to find decent Pugs nowadays and everything is about insane speed clears. Nerf the gimmicks.

2. Drop Rate. Lets review. I dont have a SF sin or 600/smite Monk team and we play a dungeon/elite area. I get 1 gold drop for 2 hours of gameplay, if I dont get d/ced before the end of the map. Wait wut?

3. Lets end the 'This class is super useless red engine gore hate you a-net fix this shit!' threads. No class is useless in PvE, its just inferior due to other classes being able to farm/speed clear the area. Nerfing the gimmick builds would help break down this wall as well.

4. I am not one of the 'LOLZ PPL WHO WASTE THEIR LIFE ON GUILD WARS GETTING 9 STACKS OF ECTOZ NEED NURF LOLOLOL' people/groupies. This is just what would make the game funner for me.

5. If you were one of the stereotypes I made a joke about in my post, dont respond to this. I stereotyped you in a retarded way for a reason.

Thats my opinion on balancing. Just another 'Nerf gimmick build' post. So simple, but with the right nerfing it would work. Lets face it, Arena Net can't buff everything up to par with 'godmode' given to certain classes because they just dont have the resources. Better to nerf the 3 problems then buff the 900 issues.

Edit: Constructive post for the night is done. Its time to do what I do best.

FLAMEON!

Gimmicks got nerfed and guess what, nothing. Still have the typical Dervish hatred, and the typical sins are elite, also the hatred for any class that has to do with healing thats not a N/Rt >__>

WE DONT NEED NERFS for the overpowered, theyve been doing that for HOW MANY years now. We need BUFFS for the underpowered, and we need drops increased. I dont care if it brings it down, at least its a way to turn a profit.

Make chests in the explorable areas drop something of use, make dungeons more rewarding for their time and effort, Nothing too big, maybe a third weapon/Item.

Monster builds need to be changed and made more interesting, and REGULAR PvE needs a change makeing it more interesting to play.

(this game is covered in balance issues because the nerfs come from people QQing about problems in game. Everyone whines about a skill enough itll get nerfed...))
FOR GODS SAKE i could guess if EVERYONE QQed about Mending being way too nderpowered, i could guess the next skill update or the next one after, mending would get a buff.

The-Bigz · Mar 07, 2010, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

Gimmicks got nerfed

Stopped reading after that. Anyone with intelligence knows why.

For the Nonintelligent: Failed nerfs and random buffs that create the same gimmick over again when the original gimmick isn't even dead isn't nerfing gimmicks.

Pandora's box · Mar 07, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

PVE does not need to be balanced. In contrary: the fun of exploring is to find unexpected ways to improve, get rich, ect. Just like a golddigger is who is hoping for that one big opportunity. The only problem is: shared information. If one person finds a way to get it all, than he's a genious. If everyone uses the same succesbuilds than the genaral opinion is: get rid of it. Nonsense! Just let everyone have his/hers share in the fun. Would it become boring? Than:
A. Good players will find even better ways to get around.
B. Don't nerf but add new content.
Given all the time spent on 'balancing' this game could have had 2 more chapters instead...

Bryant Again · Mar 07, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

The purpose of "balance" is to provide incentive for a player to learn more about the game, to become a better player. If players are given the best of the best at the start - an example would be given every player Ursan (pre-nerf) at character creation - then there's next to no incentive. All the things they could learn take time to do so, and why take time learning when you can put that one skill on your skillbar and be almost just as successful?

Phaern Majes · Mar 08, 2010, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deviant Angel

Balance?

I've got this one all figured out!

Remove all armor, weapons, professions, and skills from the game. Give everyone the same amount of health and a 1-1 dmg stick that can't be modded. We can all run around like a bunch of naked clones and hit each other with sticks!

Same goes for monsters. It will be awesome!

That's what you guys really want, right?

Not sure why but this reminds me of the April Fools where all our characters were stick people.

OT: If they're gonna balance it then they need to look at it from every angle, not just one "philosophy" of balancing. If a class needs a makeover give it a make over, if a particular dungeon/instance needs balanced then balance it, if a skill is too imba nerf it. Really though nothing hardcore will be done, bring on GW2.

frostkisses · Mar 08, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

It took ANet 5 f'ing months for a skillupdate and SF is still powerful.

^this

There will ALWAYS be some sort of gimmick. There are tons of them now. The only reason people are q.q'ing about sf/600 etc is because its the fastest. They're only "gimmick" because EVERYONE knows about them. Get rid of wiki, randomize the skills so they change every week...THATS exploration of the game. Not saying the former is a good idea, but look at what you guys are saying..thats pretty much it...For a game that is 5 years old, doesnt intend on releasing new content, and 3/4 of their staff is working on a different game...there is no such thing as balance. The "test krewe" is a joke...sorry to those of you that are in it...but I think even you know it. Just another lame 'answer' to arena nets failing customer relations...
To sit around and say "omfg just nerf the gimmick" is stupid. because you'll be saying that for as long as you play guild wars. let farmers farm, thats what they find to be fun..if you wanna play through the same 4 campaigns til your eyes fall out be my guest.

own age myname · Mar 08, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Because the Guild Wars community and players need more grief and negativity. That's the answer to selling sequels.

There are a lot of things different with Guild Wars 2, so don't expect people will be standing around waiting for a game they may not even like.

Or they could just work on PvP, a lot, which would be awesome. Like bring back HB and TA and also keep and work on Codex. But that will never happen.

snaek · Mar 08, 2010, 03:15 AM // 03:15

removing hard mode (and things that go along with it such as pve skills) would be a good start.

draxynnic · Mar 08, 2010, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

i agree that the game needs to be balanced so as to keep the high end areas challenging, but how it is balanced is where people seem to disagree. Personally i think that the main function of balancing skills should be to give players options, Most classes in pve are restricted to about 5 "meta" builds, i think that balances in the future should buff skills that people don't play in order to make them viable, so that players have a range of good skills to choose from, not one build that they have to run because it's the only one good enough to play in high end areas.

Pretty much this. Knock down the gimmicks so people aren't forced into playing them, bring up the underpowered options so they are actually viable.

Going into more detail, I'd agree with Martin's analysis. While it's true that you can succeed in PvE with any profession, this is more a function that most of PvE is forgiving enough that you can get away with a suboptimal party - some professions are certainly eclipsed in their own niches.

(Datura) · Mar 08, 2010, 07:50 AM // 07:50

I would say a mixture of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I'll say the same thing I always say. PvE balance exists when:

1) Every class has a niche. There is something that the class can do better than every other profession, or at least as well as every other profession in that niche.

2) Every niche filled by a class is useful, and each class is therefore desirable to take in some form of broad teamplay.

I'll add a version of Arkantos's comment as a third condition:

3) Players are required to take multiple characters filling several niches to complete areas. Degenerate builds driven by a single overpowered skill are limited to specialized tasks such as a specific mission or specific run. Old school 4-5 player Sorrow's Furnace farming is fine. 8 player SoO speed clears powered by SF are not.

Most of the OP's specific questions are irrelevant. Balance is judged by outcomes. To obtain balance, you work backwards from the desired solution. Ideally, you would obtain balance by altering as few skills as possible, but sometimes large updates are required.

Balancing farming is a separate condition. Today's farms should not be more efficient than past farms. As long as that remains the case, ANet is doing fine. When that ceases to be the case, something needs to change. Whether that must be the skills or the design of the farm depends on the reasons the farm is overly efficient.

and this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Right now, the direct offensive and defensive proficiencies are so strong that its mostly more beneficial to bring an additional offensive or defensive skill instead of an interrupt, shutdown, snare etc. This entails that the more support orientated professions like ranger, ele, ritu, mesmer or para are subpar unless they have one or more overpowered skills at their disposal.

and just because something is powerful doesn't mean it needs a nerf. For instance, SoS was/is quite powerful but thats what Rits do so I would say its fine. It makes for nice viable hm bars and more importantly its fun.

another example of this kind of balancing would be buffing dervishes when it comes to scythes. Sins, Warriors and Rangers kind of use scythes better than Dervishes like many people have said. It's awesome that those classes can viably use scythes, thats diverse but dervs need something more that makes it a feature of the Dervish class.

Rampage · Mar 08, 2010, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I still disagree as with most they don't what about CS,NFS or Flight Simulator.There isn't an RTS Game doesn't get more challenging as you play through it.

Sorry but I don't know what you are talking about.

Are you really that stupid? It's a simulator, not a damn game.

There isn't an RTS Game doesn't get more challenging as you play through it? I have absolutely no idea what the hell that means. He knows what he's talking about, and you don't even have a clue what you're talking about. Please, for the sake of the forum, stop posting.

Amy Awien · Mar 08, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

There is no reason to call somone stupid, especially since you don't understand what he's trying to say - even though that's likely because a post came out garbled.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 08, 2010, 08:31 AM // 08:31

PvE balance is impossible in GW because PvE was stemmed from a PvP game.

It's just as simple as that.

Morphy · Mar 08, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Balance isn't relevant in PvE because it isn't competitive.