Curse

Gill Halendt · Mar 08, 2010, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

From a business stand point, yes. Nerfing these skills isn't going to improve the quality of the game, it's not going to make the game fun again. The games old, the games stale, the games dead. It's just going to lose ANet customers.

I hate it, but it's true.

And what about those who leave because "the game is stale" and "it's managed by a clueless devteam"?

The latest update is such a barefaced compromise: they didn't really nerf a thing, but made changes in such a sensational way they apparently pleased detractors too. That seems to be the new policy: instead of taking a route, and picking a target audience, they're trying to have the cake and eat it too. This won't work in the long term, you'll just have everyone pissed off and leave, but whatever. GW has been turned into a mess for long, and, well, I agree with you there's little to be done about that now. Too late to make their choice now.

Leaving abuses in place could work today, but what for? But what about the next game? Their reputation? Can we trust GW2 won't be left in the open all of a sudden? Can we trust they won't turn the game into a mess after a while, and move the best resources to their next project? I for one don't trust their business model anymore. So, unless GW2 turns out being simply the best thing out there (which I doubt), they've lost me as a customer, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Rampage · Mar 08, 2010, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Space

OP offers nothing that hasn't been said a million times before, why feel the need to create another thread? It's common knowledge that Anet messed up and have left SF in the game for a ridiculous amount of time, however that is their bed and they have chosen to lie in it. I haven't noticed ragequitters due to the SF nerf, just people who have adapted because they expected it.

Not really, I just don't think starting another thread on the subject is necessary.

Yes, a million times before someone who hated the broken shit that was brought into the game constructively posted why it shouldn't be nerfed.

Oh, wait, riverside is full of people who say kill it because it's overpowered and people who say don't nerf it with terrible reasons.

If you don't feel like contributing, feel free to gtfo.

Sethellington · Mar 08, 2010, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Yep, well put. Was glad to see this wasn't a 'OMG dzagonur bastion is liek so hard i just cant do it i need moar betterer skills plz'. It's a shame that GW has turned out how it has, but there's no use in complaining.

Archress Shayleigh · Mar 08, 2010, 12:38 PM // 12:38

So true. I agree with every word.

Captain Bulldozer · Mar 08, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

If you want to look at it from a business perspective, Anet probably has a lot of reason to believe that the players who haven't already given up on GW are those most likely to buy future products (GW2). By not updating the game and allowing the broken skills they guarantee the loss of players. When a game sits still for an extended period of time EVERYONE will quit because of boredom. Sure, its probably true that by making changes some people will be annoyed and leave, but it's a far smaller number than if they did nothing.

Not maintaining their own product is the best way to lose customers.

And by the way, two additional points:

1) Not everyone thinks prophecies was the best form of GW. If the game had stayed that way, I probably wouldn't have played past the first few months.

2) Don't be so quick to jump on others for "reading comprehension" if you're going to have flaws in your logic and not misunderstand what the other person is saying. Its just bad for business.

4thVariety · Mar 08, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

If you look at GW as if it was your annual EA product, then we first had some unusually short cycles and now a very long cycle until the next major content release. Allow me to talk in insane metaphors for the remainder of the post.

You can say what you want, but the GW brand always offered a lot of punch for the Dollars. But some people treat the game as if it was their first teenage love or something and believe the game would stay with them forever. But like your teenage girlfriend, this GW has some serious issues and you are better off dumping her at some point. Don't despair though, ArenaNet will create a new hot blond called GW2 in the meantime.

Within such a frame of expectations, we have to tread carefully what to ask of our teenage love before dumping her when the hot blond finally comes along. How many design flaws can the changing of a few numbers really cover up? At its core, the game hugely favors people grinding mobs alone over defeating them with your friends. As a result, Solo-Farming is ubiquitous. Nothing will ever change that. Going up against the community after actively conditioning them to solo-grind for five years would be insane. Our teenage love also is rather predictable when it comes to the PvE content. No skill change can alter the fact that the player always knows what he will face and hence be able to lower the difficulty to "autopilot" with the right build. Most importantly our GW-GF is somewhat of a buzzkill. That might be the largest detractor of them all, the absence of things which are on the crazy side of gaming. Everything has to be rather neatly arranged and fall in line with the expectations of some people who would get very angry very quick if you suggested anything fun over something balanced. Man I'd kill for a good Ursan rampage, I was having fun with that, but instead I am ask to pray to the gods of balance and sacrifice my fun & free-time at the altar of procrastination and do some "hard gaming work" instead.

And that's your GW-Girlfriend without her make-up. Granted, she still looks better than all other MMOs, but a hot blond is a hot blond is GW2. Can't imagine too many people shedding tears. Then again, there also won't be a shortage of people, who will, no doubt, hate something about GW2 enough to remain with GW1 until death do them part.

Shayne Hawke · Mar 08, 2010, 01:49 PM // 13:49

What ANet does in GW affects its audience for GW2, surely. If they want GW2 to be a game with a quality PvE and PvP experience, it's in their best interest to make GW a quality experience. That means stupid shit needs nerfs.

It may not pull in money now, but it's not going to pull in any money or attention to GW2's PvP if it attracts the audience of players that plays GW now.

Essentially, ANet killing the quality of GW is going to kill the quality of GW2, and is going to kill GW2 before it even begins.

I'm all for getting rid of the majority of players in GW if that means that most of the stupid people leave.

MagmaRed · Mar 08, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

The game is not dead. I do not play anywhere near as much as I used to. However, I do know new people are still picking it up (low prices on old games) and many people are coming back from extended breaks. And of course many people are still working on finishing the games for their first time. It is only dead to the long time veteran players who have done everything repeatedly. But that hardly makes up the game population, and doubtfully constitutes a majority. How many times do you run into people for a PUG that haven't done their attribute point quests, don't have max armor, don't have skill X that is crucial for a build they are using, etc.? Just because you and the people you play with see it as dead does not mean it is. At least not for the entire population.

Tullzinski · Mar 08, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

Before I start, let me say this: I'm not some dumb fanboy who thinks I deserve everything on a silver platter. This isn't a "OMG STOP CARING ABOUT HOW OTHERS PLAY THE GAME" thread. I've thought about it, and this is what I've come up with.

These are the opinions of a veteran player who hates the state of the game. This is the ugly truth.

I hate Shadow Form. I hate speed clears. I hate all the crap that should have never made it into the game. However, nerfing these skills is not the way to go at this point in the game.

Let's face it, the game is dying. It's 5 years old, we have the sequel coming out in a couple of years. Right now, ANet doesn't give a crap about balancing PvE. That's why they didn't kill SF and SCs in this update. Right now they're focusing on getting people to purchase GW2. They don't care about the state of GW1, the game is done. It's run its course, it's old, and it's 1000x more successful than ANet ever thought. That's all they can ask for.

Nerfing these skills isn't going to make the game good again. It's not going to make you old time players play again. It's not going to make the game fun again. What it's going to do is lose ANet customers. ANet = business, losing customers = bad for business. The majority of PvE players don't care about the quality of the game, they care about getting e-gold, useless titles and a bigger e-peen by plowing through elite areas in ridiculous amounts of time with no effort. The minority want the game to be like it was back in the good old days, Prophecies. Who are (should, even) be catering to? You guessed it.

So basically the game is dead, the majority want dumb skills like SF, and ANet wants to please the majority. Nerfing these skills is going to drive the majority away, and it isn't going to make the game any more fun for the minority. ANet ruined the game by giving us these skills, the damage is irreversible. Veteran players, move on. The game was great, the game is dead, play another game. You've been playing for years, it's over. Believe me, I wish it could be like the old days, but it can't. You can thank ANet for that. We had our fun, let them have what they call fun.

The veterans are right for the right reasons, but it's too late. The people abuse these skills are wrong, but for the right reasons.

Let the heated discussion begin.

In summary Dead Game is Dead, Test Krewe should be commited, Live Team should go work on GW2, anyone left playing GW is stupid and jacking their epeen off.

Thank You Mr. Happy!

Phineas · Mar 08, 2010, 02:34 PM // 14:34

I agree with you OP, but I don't hold out any hope for the future, including GW2.

ANet won't be seeing my money for GW2. I would expect them to behave in precisely the same income-generating way. Launch a mildly balanced, visually aesthetic game to get the purists in then nerf skills to make it appealing to the most degenerate players so as to pull in the remaining bucks, and then move on to GW3.

I'll still play GW1 at least until GWAMM because I own the game and I'm a completionist, and will most likely still be around on the day they pull the plugs on the servers, but there is little point in pursuing the same end in a re-make.

Warvic · Mar 08, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

You are right. Why nerf all the farm skills now? People farmed with SF etc for the last 2 years. The economy is alrdy as bad as it can get. The nerf only makes more people leave...

Ah well, GW2 is a fresh start! Can't wait!

@poster above me. The big reason for buying GW2 is content. It's finally a new game, with a new story and world. And it's going to be way better and even MORE fun. That's enuogh reason for me. And believe, it won't be GW in a new jacket. It's going to be an whole different game.

Johny bravo · Mar 08, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

The first rendition of the game if nearing 5 years old. The newest content (EoTN) is closing on 3 years old.
Keeping that in mind how many other games that are this old have you played for the time you have played this game. Of course it is stale and become easy you have been practicing it for years now.
We as a community have had 5 years to understand the mechanics learn how to abuse them and basically put it in auto-pilot. What do you expect people move on to new and exciting things. Please name me a game that after this amount of time and no new content is still alive and kicking like it was in its prime. Why would you expect this one too.
People are going to leave and try the new flavor of the month, some come back some don't but it is only expected.
This last PvE balance I think accomplished exactly what they wanted. How many FoWSC pugs you see getting the end chest, UW? DoA? While all the areas are still possible to do quickly its not longer rolling your hand across the keyboard. It takes tactics and coordination. While solo farming isn't dead its much harder. 600/smite still works but its slower and requires a little more interaction on the smiter bar.
Killing the ability to farm or do elite areas in a decent amount of time (under an hour) at this point WOULD kill the game. Most people now play for fun or casually. How many hardcore players still exist and of those how many want to spend hours clearing one area? I would bet not many, and if they do forming a balanced team isn't forbidden.

Overall, after almost 5 years I still enjoy the game on a casual level. I do SC, balanced groups, solo, and Duo farming as my mood suits me. In my opinion if GW1 can keep me busy for a couple years I am sold on GW2 at least to try it out. I am sure people who enjoyed the game at some point but left because they were bored or pissed about nerf will do the same.

R_Frost · Mar 08, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

Before I start, let me say this: I'm not some dumb fanboy who thinks I deserve everything on a silver platter. This isn't a "OMG STOP CARING ABOUT HOW OTHERS PLAY THE GAME" thread. I've thought about it, and this is what I've come up with.

These are the opinions of a veteran player who hates the state of the game. This is the ugly truth.

I hate Shadow Form. I hate speed clears. I hate all the crap that should have never made it into the game. However, nerfing these skills is not the way to go at this point in the game..

exactly. instead of skill nerfs in PvE just let it be. as ive said in some previous responses in other posts, its an instanced world, nothing anyone does affects the others. SF wasnt near the problem it was or is til nightfall then EoTN was released. the PvE only skills and Cons is what made it broken like it is. there is too many skills in the game. it was clear after factions Anet was having trouble keeping things balanced, then just made things worse with nightfall and EoTN. im probably in the minority but IMO Anet should of did the PvE/PvP skill split before or at nightfall's release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

Let's face it, the game is dying. It's 5 years old, we have the sequel coming out in a couple of years. Right now, ANet doesn't give a crap about balancing PvE. That's why they didn't kill SF and SCs in this update. Right now they're focusing on getting people to purchase GW2. They don't care about the state of GW1, the game is done. It's run its course, it's old, and it's 1000x more successful than ANet ever thought. That's all they can ask for.

Nerfing these skills isn't going to make the game good again. It's not going to make you old time players play again. It's not going to make the game fun again. What it's going to do is lose ANet customers. ANet = business, losing customers = bad for business. The majority of PvE players don't care about the quality of the game, they care about getting e-gold, useless titles and a bigger e-peen by plowing through elite areas in ridiculous amounts of time with no effort. The minority want the game to be like it was back in the good old days, Prophecies. Who are (should, even) be catering to? You guessed it.

So basically the game is dead, the majority want dumb skills like SF, and ANet wants to please the majority. Nerfing these skills is going to drive the majority away, and it isn't going to make the game any more fun for the minority. ANet ruined the game by giving us these skills, the damage is irreversible. Veteran players, move on. The game was great, the game is dead, play another game. You've been playing for years, it's over. Believe me, I wish it could be like the old days, but it can't. You can thank ANet for that. We had our fun, let them have what they call fun.

The veterans are right for the right reasons, but it's too late. The people abuse these skills are wrong, but for the right reasons.

Let the heated discussion begin.

to the veteran players that have been around since prophicies, yeah the game has been played out for a long time. hell for myself, i wouldnt even join a pug long before nightfall was released. just played with guildies or H/H everything. as of now im on a break from the game. sure i still need to fill my HOM, but cant find the need or want to grind anymore then ive already done for something im not even sure ill get as i havent decided if ill buy GW2.

Rampage · Mar 08, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

If you want to look at it from a business perspective, Anet probably has a lot of reason to believe that the players who haven't already given up on GW are those most likely to buy future products (GW2). By not updating the game and allowing the broken skills they guarantee the loss of players. When a game sits still for an extended period of time EVERYONE will quit because of boredom. Sure, its probably true that by making changes some people will be annoyed and leave, but it's a far smaller number than if they did nothing.

Not maintaining their own product is the best way to lose customers.

And by the way, two additional points:

1) Not everyone thinks prophecies was the best form of GW. If the game had stayed that way, I probably wouldn't have played past the first few months.

2) Don't be so quick to jump on others for "reading comprehension" if you're going to have flaws in your logic and not misunderstand what the other person is saying. Its just bad for business.

First of all, I never said that ANet should stop updating skills, that would just be plain stupid. The playerbase is pretty much this - farmers, PvPers, and everyone else. The majority are the farmers, so ANet wants to please the farmers. Nerfing skills like SF is going to make these players quit the game and not want to purchase GW2. That is bad for business. ANet is going to lose customers either way, what they want to do is keep the majority. They're going to keep the majority happy by not killing what they do, i.e. speed clears and farms with broken skills.

1) When I say GW was best during Prophecies I meant the state of the game was the best. Factions was good, but after that it went completely downhill. Ask any player who has been playing since 05, the majority will agree on that.

2) If anything, your logic is the flawed one. Your logic is if ANet doesn't nerf the broken skills, people will leave, so they should nerf them. Yes, people will leave, but more people will leave if they do nerf these skills. Nerfing these skills is going to do more harm to ANet than keeping them around. They've been around for over a year, it's too late to get rid of them.

It's not hard to comprehend. They want to please the majority, the majority are farmers, so they shouldn't start nerfing the farming skills now. Driving away the majority is always the wrong thing to do from a business perspective.

Quote:

The game is not dead. I do not play anywhere near as much as I used to. However, I do know new people are still picking it up (low prices on old games) and many people are coming back from extended breaks. And of course many people are still working on finishing the games for their first time. It is only dead to the long time veteran players who have done everything repeatedly. But that hardly makes up the game population, and doubtfully constitutes a majority. How many times do you run into people for a PUG that haven't done their attribute point quests, don't have max armor, don't have skill X that is crucial for a build they are using, etc.? Just because you and the people you play with see it as dead does not mean it is. At least not for the entire population.

The quality of the game is dead. The game itself is dying. You can't deny that a 5 year old game with no new content and little updates isn't a dying game. Any game in that position would be dying.

MithranArkanere · Mar 08, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

The problem with SF was leaving it working like that for so long, not fixing it or not.
It was late, too late. But it's still better fixing it that letting it be.

For me, the changes made me COME BACK. I'm not leaving when the game gets better. I had the game on hiatus until the fixed Shadow Form.

Rampage · Mar 08, 2010, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The problem with SF was leaving it working like that for so long, not fixing it or not.
It was late, too late. But it's still better fixing it that letting it be.

For me, the changes made me COME BACK. I'm not leaving when the game gets better. I had the game on hiatus until the fixed Shadow Form.

You do realize they didn't fix shadow form, right? People are still clearing UW in about 20-30 minutes, people are still doing quad runs in DoA in under an hour. That's not fixing it, it's a minor setback.

Shayne Hawke · Mar 08, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

The playerbase is pretty much this - farmers, PvPers, and everyone else. The majority are the farmers, so ANet wants to please the farmers. Nerfing skills like SF is going to make these players quit the game and not want to purchase GW2. That is bad for business. ANet is going to lose customers either way, what they want to do is keep the majority. They're going to keep the majority happy by not killing what they do, i.e. speed clears and farms with broken skills.

ANet is going to produce the skill balances that pulls in the audience they want, not the other way around.

The question is going to be whether ANet wants to pull in all of those farmers again, or whether they want to pull in players with some backbone and brain cells. Sure, pulling in the greatest number of players is probably good for profits. It's not going to mean well for the company though if the product gets seen as a flop for attracting such a low quality audience.

Quote:

The quality of the game is dead. The game itself is dying. You can't deny that a 5 year old game with no new content and little updates isn't a dying game. Any game in that position would be dying.

"The quality is dead; the game is dying; there is no point in trying to improve the situation here when the sequel is on its way," is what I'm basically pulling from your posts.

The current "majority" faction, or what should probably just be called the "loudest crying" faction, is comprised of all those persons that drove the game into the ground. When GW2 comes out, it's likely going to bring in the audience that is a part of GW. Do you want GW2 to start out with a playerbase mostly comprised of those who brought GW to its knees?

I don't want to say that the players are totally to blame here and it wasn't anything that ANet did or didn't do that was wrong. The letting alone of invinci-builds was a bad decision. But now we have a large group of players who enjoy having those invinci-builds, which have been deemed bad for the game. I don't want this group of players migrating immediately to GW2 and mucking up my game before it even takes off.

moriz · Mar 08, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

people over estimate the amount of people who actually play SF, and also over estimate the impact of nerfing a skill like SF. at the end of the day, the amount of players lost if SF suddenly disappeared is pretty minuscule; a few thousand players at most. that's a drop in the bucket for a game that probably still has over 300k players.

the old SF shouldn't exist. it is the closest thing to a godmode build ever to be implemented in a modern multiplayer game. it should have been nerfed on principle alone. end of story. i can't comment on whether the change is effective or not, but i applaud anet for changing it nonetheless.

aeligos · Mar 08, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

i still play gw but my game play is 90% pve and ~5% pvp and ~5% porn (during pvp wait time).

honestly, the nerfing hasn't really affected me all that much. i'm a noob farmer, you see.

with regards to sf, some say it's even stronger/better now. i have yet to see that for myself.

-.-

Arduin · Mar 08, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I'm curious as where you got the 'the majority are the farmers' from, Rampage.