Curse

Risus · Mar 19, 2010, 04:24 AM // 04:24

I PUG, I'm very exp. I know lots of people that PUG, but when I create a PUG group, I create a group that can probably finish, not a group of random people that wan3z ect0z.

Also a big point that everyone is missing that was made in post #1. One of the noobs LIED and said he was exp. These are the people I blacklist. The ones that lie and say they are really exp then turn out to be complete idiots that don't even know the basics of UW.
You can do UW with a ton of different builds, my alliance has 2 builds that works.

Also plenty of good people play in PUGs. I met a ton of my most exp UW friends in PUGs, you just have to know who to avoid. Most people with popular anime names in their name are mostly 12 year old idiots who fail. Etc etc the list goes on and on.

lishi · Mar 19, 2010, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Now, people say that they won't be exp if no one let them join in a team.

Now this is a case of Speedclear is false, mostly of time you have a vital job and normally you are supposed to do that job alone, no one even with the best of intention will be able to help you, simple as that.

At start I was like those people, no idea of what i was supposed to do. How I improved myself?

1) I joined some full clear PUG forming, those will almost always have no req, as other then a decent skill bar. I never expected those actually to beat UW, but playing in few of them I got a good idea of some area.

2) I looked on Youtube some video of the role I was supposed to play.

3) I bought some conset then tested my job alone.

4) when I was comfortable with my skills I joined some pugs.

5) last step, eventually troughs pugs I got some friend who would call me when they were forming and tutored me some more area.

Now, this was last year when the build was DayWay, but this concept can be clearly adapted with the build that PUG run today (terraway, but dont expect big chance of success)

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_TerraWay

1) get a idea of the how generally UW work by pugging a UW full run and reading wiki( avoid those without any protective skills, like no imbalagon or the classic monks with only heal and no prot. Most of those Pugs will fail when the aggro break from the tanks.)

2) get yourself a target role :
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_TerraWay
Read carefully what you have to do, and try check on youtube for some videos ( they are mostly old but still it give a good idea)

here few tips on how to learn a role

Bonder : Even a cat can play this role. Just join any pug looking for one, as long you know how that skillbar work you will be fine.

Necro : That is a little more tricky but not much, you need to know where to put yourself to cast spell.

Lab Tank : Vital job, there is one video on youtube somewhere (linked on the farming section in a UWSC thread), I will suggest not do to this at first, play bonder and watch what your Lab tank do(if he is good, otherwise just wipe it from your memory)

Emo : The emo job is not too hard, but I suggest you to not play this, his role is vital at dhuum, if eventually the team after much pain manage to dhuum and fail because you don't know your job, well they have a good reason to rage at you. (this actually its true also for the necro)

Terras.

Simple watch what you can from youtube, read what you can from wiki, then have a friend come with you in UW with 4 hero. Then he can leave (or join you and trying to learn another terra area) and you should be able to clear the chamber, pop lab reaper and take "restore grenth monument".

After that use hero to clear the way to the start of your area (like a normal SC team will do) pop cons and try to complete your job.

Pits one are probably the easiest since no one expect them to pop the plain reaper.

For hero I found those the best (+3 random hero)
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...o_SpeedBooking

Risus · Mar 19, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Now, people say that they won't be exp if no one let them join in a team.

Now this is a case of Speedclear is false, mostly of time you have a vital job and normally you are supposed to do that job alone, no one even with the best of intention will be able to help you, simple as that.

At start I was like those people, no idea of what i was supposed to do. How I improved myself?

1) I joined some full clear PUG forming, those will almost always have no req, as other then a decent skill bar. I never expected those actually to beat UW, but playing in few of them I got a good idea of some area.

2) I looked on Youtube some video of the role I was supposed to play.

3) I bought some conset then tested my job alone.

4) when I was comfortable with my skills I joined some pugs.

5) last step, eventually troughs pugs I got some friend who would call me when they were forming and tutored me some more area.

Now, this was last year when the build was DayWay, but this concept can be clearly adapted with the build that PUG run today (terraway, but dont expect big chance of success)

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_TerraWay

1) get a idea of the how generally UW work by pugging a UW full run and reading wiki( avoid those without any protective skills, like no imbalagon or the classic monks with only heal and no prot. Most of those Pugs will fail when the aggro break from the tanks.)

2) get yourself a target role :
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_TerraWay
Read carefully what you have to do, and try check on youtube for some videos ( they are mostly old but still it give a good idea)

here few tips on how to learn a role

Bonder : Even a cat can play this role. Just join any pug looking for one, as long you know how that skillbar work you will be fine.

Necro : That is a little more tricky but not much, you need to know where to put yourself to cast spell.

Lab Tank : Vital job, there is one video on youtube somewhere (linked on the farming section in a UWSC thread), I will suggest not do to this at first, play bonder and watch what your Lab tank do(if he is good, otherwise just wipe it from your memory)

Emo : The emo job is not too hard, but I suggest you to not play this, his role is vital at dhuum, if eventually the team after much pain manage to dhuum and fail because you don't know your job, well they have a good reason to rage at you. (this actually its true also for the necro)

Terras.

Simple watch what you can from youtube, read what you can from wiki, then have a friend come with you in UW with 4 hero. Then he can leave (or join you and trying to learn another terra area) and you should be able to clear the chamber, pop lab reaper and take "restore grenth monument".

After that use hero to clear the way to the start of your area (like a normal SC team will do) pop cons and try to complete your job.

Pits one are probably the easiest since no one expect them to pop the plain reaper.

For hero I found those the best (+3 random hero)
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team...o_SpeedBooking

I suggest no one waste their time with that terrible chamber setup because its total crap. Also CONS are gonna cost 1 stack of mat's soon enough so speed clears will die because they stop being profitable.

lishi · Mar 19, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risus

I suggest no one waste their time with that terrible chamber setup because its total crap. Also CONS are gonna cost 1 stack of mat's soon enough so speed clears will die because they stop being profitable.

There are some better skillbar, but that is what pug expect for now. About cons, their price are actually dropping.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Viewing a YouTube video or reading about the run does NOT prepare your average player with no experience for the difficulty of UW/FoW even in Normal Mode.

The problem as some have put is the classic job hiring process:

To get the job, I need experience
To get experience, I need the job

Both conditions A and B must be simultaneously for one to succeed, however they cannot be simultaneously satisfied thereby blocking said interviewee from ever getting the job.

The problem is, there's no "entry level" areas in GW which require PUGs. You can H/H your way across the entire game, never once meeting another living soul if you wish or have to, but when it comes to the "elite" areas you are required by the game to run with others, because of the restriction on Henchmen/not being able to run seven Heroes.

H/H never tells a player they can't come due to a lack of experience, which is why so many choose to H/H instead of waiting hours for a PUG. H/H is a known quality, a PUG could either suck, drop, or be a bunch of jerks.

Seeing as how many elite areas would be MORE difficult running H/H or even seven Heroes compared to a human group that knows the routine, I think its high time ANet get off their butts and allow seven Heroes in ALL areas, including the elite areas. In places like Urgoz and the Deep, it should be upped to eleven Heroes.

Its not fair to expect players new to the game to languish in defeat before they've even had a chance to try. The only way for many to get experience clearing UW for example is with two accounts and dropping a 2nd character's three heroes in with their group. It should not require two accounts to play an area of the game, no matter its "elite-ness."

ANet needs to recognize that GW is on the decline, if not already approaching the bottom, and just open up the gameplay and areas to everyone. This means realizing that most of the outposts in the game are completely dead, and the ones that are not are populated by the hardcore who don't wish to waste their time "educating" new players.

impulsion · Mar 19, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Nobody is born with experience; everyone started somewhere, and the fact that "EXP" people exist is proof enough that it is in fact possible to learn from nothing.

I didn't start playing until after the Ursan nerf, I had no experience in UW, and PUG groups only wanted people who had done it many times before: exactly the same situation as now. I had no teacher, I didn't have a secondary account, and I didn't have any friends to help me. Catch 22? No. Youtube, PvX, Guildwiki, these forums, everything is there for those who put in the effort to learn about it.

Risus · Mar 19, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

About cons, their price are actually dropping.

Show me a screen where ToA has >50% of people selling cons for <8k. Until then, this is complete bullshit. And cons don't cost a stack of mats right now. They will be expensive as hell when it takes 5x the materials to craft a cons. Thats 1 cons for every 5 you could make before. Thats 40k/cons which is 5k/person in an 8 person PUG.

Rocky Raccoon · Mar 20, 2010, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Experience is getting your ass kicked over and over again and deciding if you really care enough to keep going.

You couldn't get hold of the things you'd done and turn them right again. Such a power might be given to the gods, but it was not given to women and men, and that was probably a good thing. Had it been otherwise, people would probably die of old age still trying to rewrite their teens. ~Stephen King, The Stand

Kaleban · Mar 20, 2010, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Nobody is born with experience; everyone started somewhere, and the fact that "EXP" people exist is proof enough that it is in fact possible to learn from nothing.

When the game is new, everyone starts on an equal playing field, there are no "pros" because everyone is a noob. As soon as there is an experience gap however, usually in relative short order, those who have said experience quite often refrain from helping the "noobs" as they've moved beyond that skill level. Its kind of like the age old repetition of parents forgetting what it was like to be a child, and telling their ten year old kids to act like adults.

Quote:

I didn't start playing until after the Ursan nerf, I had no experience in UW, and PUG groups only wanted people who had done it many times before: exactly the same situation as now. I had no teacher, I didn't have a secondary account, and I didn't have any friends to help me. Catch 22? No. Youtube, PvX, Guildwiki, these forums, everything is there for those who put in the effort to learn about it.

I'll assume that you're saying you've cleared the UW by yourself then, or with a guild, otherwise you wouldn't bother posting the above. Bully for you, but I think a game's learning curve shouldn't be so high that you have to spend more time on external research just to be able to get into the game itself.

All the tools to learn should be within the game, and admittedly, GW has a sharp learning curve at the high end PvE and PvP, and little to no in-game directions on how to do it. There's no description in game of how to proceed in Urgoz for example except trial and error, with a lot of fail.

It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't mean that you could spend 2-4 hours in one dungeon, with pathetically measly rewards, only to fail because half your team drops or some Wammo overaggros every group repeatedly.

Kook~NBK~ · Mar 20, 2010, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risus

Show me a screen where ToA has >50% of people selling cons for <8k. Until then, this is complete bullshit. And cons don't cost a stack of mats right now. They will be expensive as hell when it takes 5x the materials to craft a cons. Thats 1 cons for every 5 you could make before. Thats 40k/cons which is 5k/person in an 8 person PUG.

Question: Where are you hearing that the materials required to make cons is going to increase?

impulsion · Mar 20, 2010, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'll assume that you're saying you've cleared the UW by yourself then, or with a guild, otherwise you wouldn't bother posting the above.

Well yes, I don't know if you look around in farming section etc. but I am quite knowledgeable/skilled or whatever when it comes to the underworld - of course, it wasn't always that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Bully for you, but I think a game's learning curve shouldn't be so high that you have to spend more time on external research just to be able to get into the game itself.

Well, the wiki I don't think is external research really seeing as you can press F10 or type /wiki in-game, and besides, this game is largely about strategy anyway. The planning is just as important (if not more so) than the actual doing. Also, as you said these are "high-end" areas; they are meant to take effort to do.

Inferno Dawn · Mar 20, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I pug when I can and I have a reputation in my guild for telling some really good pug horror stories. I've been in some really awful pugs. However, for the most part I must say that most of the pugs I get are decent.

It's just that the bad ones make for better stories and those are the ones we post on guru and tell our friends about. So people get the impression that all pugs suck.

I find PUGS kinda fun. It's kinda like casual gaming with no high expectations. I get in them when I'm bored and rather not deal with all the nagging of people, lol... but I normally use PUGS for mission in campaigns on NM.

lishi · Mar 20, 2010, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risus

Show me a screen where ToA has >50% of people selling cons for <8k. Until then, this is complete bullshit.

No need, i have 30 set on my inventory bought at 7.5, if they drop low I will buy some more while waiting for something else, not everyone might sell for 8k, but enough of them do.

Quote:

And cons don't cost a stack of mats right now. They will be expensive as hell when it takes 5x the materials to craft a cons. Thats 1 cons for every 5 you could make before. Thats 40k/cons which is 5k/person in an 8 person PUG.

Now, that is something who need a sauce/screen

Inferno Dawn · Mar 20, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Nobody is born with experience; everyone started somewhere, and the fact that "EXP" people exist is proof enough that it is in fact possible to learn from nothing.

I didn't start playing until after the Ursan nerf, I had no experience in UW, and PUG groups only wanted people who had done it many times before: exactly the same situation as now. I had no teacher, I didn't have a secondary account, and I didn't have any friends to help me. Catch 22? No. Youtube, PvX, Guildwiki, these forums, everything is there for those who put in the effort to learn about it.

Basically this. I had to learn on my own, self taught basically, no one wanted to sit there and show me around. It takes awhile to learn on your own, but you eventually get up there with the others and once you've gotten your foot in the door, it's smooth sailing the rest of the way.

Mahdh · Mar 20, 2010, 11:52 PM // 23:52

was on a FoWsc and apparently with a 100b whos done it loads, he got the griffon quest and went and aggroed them and said what i dont do that?
every1 has to start off somewhere but youd expect them to at least know what to do

now im a fairly good EoE and MoP in FoWsc but how i started out was watched some videos and just learnt how what to do then joined a team and didnt mention it was my first time and they didnt ask and no one knew because i did a little background research into my job in the team.

Chthon · Mar 21, 2010, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The problem as some have put is the classic job hiring process:

To get the job, I need experience
To get experience, I need the job

Both conditions A and B must be simultaneously for one to succeed, however they cannot be simultaneously satisfied thereby blocking said interviewee from ever getting the job.

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af1OxkFOK18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af1OxkFOK18

lishi · Mar 21, 2010, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

To get the job, I need experience
To get experience, I need the job

That is in part true, but like implosion pointed out there are ways to get experience, and once you are not completely clueless about something is easier to get more experience.

Its like all those fame thread, will i do something or just complain?

Using the suggestion posted above are a much better way then hoping the mentality of people change. That or giving up on the area.