Curse

Zen1331 · Mar 15, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

The problem with this is that there are no teams willing to take a newbie and teach them. They want experienced pros and if you haven't cleared UW at least a couple hundred times then expect a swift kick from the team and a lot of cussing. That's why players like the noob in the OP lie.

Think of it from his perspective. Newbie Wammo fresh into Kryta asks to join an UW team. Says he can tank. A team accepts him and asks for build. He pings his wonderful mending/HB build that got him thru Ascalon alive and is cussed out and kicked.

He asks his guild what's a good UW build and they ping him a decent build. He spends a week acquiring the skills and tries again. He joins another team, pings his nice build and says he's looking forward to going to UW for the first time. He's cussed out again and kicked.

He joins yet another team. Says he's new to UW and wants to try out his new build. Team leader says NO NOOBS!!!! KICK!.

This time he joins the OP's team. They ask if he's experienced and he lies. He knows he'll be kicked if he doesn't. Can ya blame him?

The community in this game is very unforgiving. No one is willing to teach a new player how to do anything. I agree with the concept that you need to learn with hero's and henchies instead of making a human team fail, but for some areas, that isn't an option. I can enter UW or FOW with 3 heroes and if I'm a good player, I can make some progress, but I can't clear.

It's the responsibility of the team leader to make sure his team is prepared before you enter. If you want only pros then make it clear that you only want pros and check builds and knowledge beforehand. Ask questions. However also consider running sometimes with less knowledgable folks. Accept 1 or 2 "newbies" on the team. Ask them for their honest level of experience and tell them they won't be kicked if their honest and willing to learn. If they don't have a decent build then tell them they can't go but that you're willing to take them next week if they can get proper skills and equipment. Explain as you go and make sure they understand their function on the team. Most people are willing to learn.

Maybe if more people were willing to show newbies an elite area, these places wouldn't be so dead.

Totally agree with this. I ran w/ an experienced group in UW pre-nerf as a necro vale. But I also made sure I knew the route had the skills and made sure I knew my role. I was upfront with this and the guys were pretty cool with it. And after a couple of successful runs I'd ask if I can put them on my friends list, and would pm them if I see them and ask if I can roll with the guys again. They were super patient and eventually I started learning all the other roles and would pass on what I knew to others because I too was once a noob. Only way ppl can experience the high end stuff is to teach what you know. It shouldn't be a secret.

yarddog · Mar 15, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

so, let me get this straight....I have never completed the UW ...so I would consider my self inexperienced (dont know which term ya'll would use noob/newb) I have done good portions of it, however, never the whole thing at one go (and never a speed clear!)

I am very willing to learn, however; it has been suggested that I would need to leave the guild I have been part of for 4+ years (its my husbands guild not much of a choice to stay or go) in order to find a guild that is willing to teach me the areas that I have never been to? I am highly capable of listening to directions (and yes I know not to take the quests until explicitly told to do so and which ones)....yet since I have no experience doing a SC or even completing it, I stand a better chance at getting hit by lightning than getting into a pug to complete the underworld (no need to do so for the fow---its easy to complete with heroes and my husband).

Yeah, makes me want to tell people I'm a noob/newb.
(and yes I have no delusions of grandeur that I will ever get to complete it either....no wont be happening with the elitism I am seeing)

well this person's point of view about sums up mine, i am a vetern player, guild leader [ almost 5 yrs] and have only completed the UW 3 times [killed Dhuum], but yet when i attempt to join PuG's , well lets just say it's not pleasant. some of the elitest/epeen comments posted here are really whats got me more upset. grouping used to be a real pleasure in this game. Cheers

Polgara Val · Mar 15, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I am pretty much of the same mind as the two posters above me. UW or FoW players especially the ones who have 0 patience dont get that if you dont teach new players you put them right off the game and the bottom line is, this game needs new players to survive up until GW2 is released.

Its dissapointing to see that some players and even some posters on this thread come accross as arrogant elitists, however thats the nature of a great deal of players in GW whether it be pve or pvp.

Lycan Nibbler · Mar 15, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I like Ravens post. I am along the same lines as cosy also. I have done parts of UW/FoW, but it was never the pace I camped out at (always playing with friends elsewhere etc) so I am also inexperienced there.
There is a clear separation it seems of people who want to SC and people who want to go for enjoyment. this doesnt mean the people doing it for fun dont want to succeed, just that it isnt the be all and end all. I remember some of my most fun times were trapping down there for spiders with ex guildmates while on ventrilo. Yes, we had some mess ups at times, but that was part of the mickey taking out of each other.

Less people seem to want to spend an extra hour to finish something these days it seems - maybe thats what happens at this life stage of a game, Im not sure - but I do know if I ever got a group of people in game that enjoyed it, then I would welcome the fun, even if it took a couple of extra con sets

natmarie21 · Mar 15, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

noob=/=newb
one will listen and take advice, the other does as they want with no regard for the group.

If you're willing to listen and take advice from the more experienced players, you'll do fine. Don't lie about your exp, just don't mention it at all. The only problem is sc groups, but thats a whole other issue.

Deris · Mar 15, 2010, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I have been playing GW off and on since the beginning. I usually play solo.

This is the usual order of how things go for me. I get bored playing solo and wish to hit the higher endgame areas. (especially DOA) I try and pug it or if possible (doa is not) h&h it. Neither works out too well. I then look for a guild. I usually go for the friendly guild looking for ads...

Most people in these guilds have been indeed friendly. Well meaning and it does allow for some socializing. But, of course my desire in joining was in the hope of gaining exp in the higher end areas.

Because I am honest I get excluded. I never have and never will tell people I have experience when in fact I do not. Quite honestly, I am just not that good at some this. Like the solo W/N build for the Raptors...man I suck...lmao

But, if given a chance I am sure I would eventually be good enough in the 8 men high end areas.

No one wants my inexperienced Warrior though. So I state to the guild mates that this is what i go through every time. Usually some of the more elitist types start to tell me to quit complaining and whining. They also usually tell me to make a different character as a warrior is too limited.

So I then thank them for their time and leave guild.

I have done this at least 6 or 7 times over these past few years.

Look, I play to have entertainment and fun. If it becomes something other than those two things then why play? That is my take anyways. I will not stress out over these things.

I never look for something handed to me. But, the reason a guild should be in existence is to allow EVERYONE in the guild to experience more of the game than they could other wise do solo.

Excluding people for inexperience or "wrong characters" is just flat out wrong.

I am Deris Malabar and I endorse this message...lmao

TheRaven · Mar 15, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Thanks for the support. I feel sorry for the newer players because there are so many elitist snobs in the game.

Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that sometimes you really just want to clear an area and clear it FAST!!! You don't want newbies dragging you down and you really aren't in the mood to teach the new kid. That's fine. Then grab some guildies and close friends and go. Don't stand around town yelling "GLF 2 more permas!!!!! NO NOOBS OR RETARDS!!!!" If you're pugging then you get what you get. Check them out before warping in. If you don't then blame your team leader and not the noob.

I will also concede that a newbie should never lie about their experience. They're only shooting themselves in the foot if they do. It's a rarity to be able to say you're an expert in an area you've never been in and have your team not realize you're lying before the trip is over. However the GW community is so hostile towards newbies that many feel lying is the only way to get ahead.

Sure you can research the area on wiki and youtube and that's a excellent idea for the new player that wants to learn, but at some point you need actual practice with your build in the UW and since a full team is require for that practice, you need to find players willing to give you a chance.

The argument that most have used is to just find a guild. Well for me, I have a guild that I've been in for more than 3 years now. They're a great bunch of guys and I'm not leaving. However they rarely form teams for the Elite areas. Does this mean I can't clear UW ever? I'm not a noob yet I face the same hostility from pugs just because I've never speed cleared.

I've been in the UW many times and I'm familiar with all the quests. However I've never done a SC. The perma build just doesn't appeal to me and monking is out of the question. I've cleared the UW before maybe around 3 or 4 times (Once since Dhuum appeared). I'm not totally clueless but I'm not an expert either and I know I can't cope with the Ice Wastes quest without some good experienced leader telling me right where to stand. Each clear was with a balanced team.

FOW is different. I've cleared that perhaps 20 to 30 times by myself with 6 heroes in tow. (2 accts) To me it's easy. I don't do speed clears though. I take my time and my heroes don't mind if I take an hour lunch break.

Yet i'm still lumped in with the other "noobs" because I have no speed clear experience. I hope some balanced teams return to TOA.

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 15, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

I've done UW NM/HM a couple times since I started nearly 4 years ago. Done FoW God knows how many times, used to be my fave place. I was fortunate enough when my r/l best friend and since-beta Guild Leader left to concentrate on his music career, to be immediately poached from my dead 2-man guild into a very well established guild with a lot of experience.

I concede that a lot won't be lucky enough to have this happen. In all honesty though, it wasn't really luck, so much as social engineering that got me noticed and poached. I think that in all the posts in this thread, that aspect has not been touched on nearly enough. Remember the old saying:

Quote:

"It's not what you know, it's who you know."

In an online, anonymous and basically faceless world like the internet, Social Engineering is quite possibly the most important part.

Sit in ToA every day. Build a rapport with the people there. Get to know them, and let them get to know you. You're going to get a group. It's as simple as that. The alternative, sit in ToA, don't say a word. - Who's even going to know you exist? No-one.

I'm not elite. I make no bones about saying that. The things in GW that I know how to do, I do well, but I don't consider that "Elite" as such. Just experienced at the things I do. I have no drama's giving out builds, never have kept builds secret, either here or previously in NwN. My builds, probably not the best, but they work, reliably. When people ask me to teach them things, i.e. Raptors on Ranger, War, Necro, Ele, ToPK farming etc, I take the time to show em, explain how it works, the best gear to use, the best methods (that I've found personally) to go about it.

Ultimately my point is, get out there, get in the public eye, get yourself known, and you'll get dragged along all over the place regardless of level of experience. Add Wiki, stir well, MMMMMM!!! Tasty! Don't be afraid to spend the time you would have spent playing once or twice a week, to research your foes, and their homes.

I can't really add any more to that. I'm sure the nay-sayers out there will find something to pick on out of this, I say "Meh." There's more than just one group of people in GW, and assholes can and should, be ignored with the contempt they deserve. Not everyone in GW is an asshole, but you'll never know that if you don't get out and get to know em all.

Pandora's box · Mar 15, 2010, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

Sooo I heard about this super secret awesome thing...called a guild...

Not everyone is in a 100+ member guild. In fact most guilds are very small if its for active players. A couple of friends sticking together to play now and than. So no, a guild is mostly NOT the place to get this experience... Unless you want everyone to join a mega guild, and delete all smaller guilds. Sounds no good to me.

AngelWJedi · Mar 16, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Not everyone is in a 100+ member guild. In fact most guilds are very small if its for active players. A couple of friends sticking together to play now and than. So no, a guild is mostly NOT the place to get this experience... Unless you want everyone to join a mega guild, and delete all smaller guilds. Sounds no good to me.

and not to be mean but some times the more active/large guilds arent full of nice people. i've been in both and both had the good/bad about them.

Martin Alvito · Mar 16, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

You have to understand group dynamics to understand why many teams have no patience for bad play or educating players. A team's patience for education and poor play is that of the least patient player. The team is only as strong as its weakest link. If you cannot hold your own as well as someone else could, you are wasting the time of seven other players. Odds are that one of the seven players has little patience for wasted time.

While the game itself would be improved by the patient education of new players, the impatient player's experience is not. The most impatient player in a team is usually a strong player. That confers some bargaining leverage; the impatient player can usually demand that a quality team take only strong players, and threaten to leave the group as the punishment for failure to comply. This is just as true in PvE as it is in GvG or HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

In an online, anonymous and basically faceless world like the internet, Social Engineering is quite possibly the most important part.

This is the hard truth of online gaming. It doesn't matter how good you are. What matters is how good you are perceived to be by the players that assemble teams. If you're the best Monk/Ranger/Mesmer/Warrior in the game and no one knows about it, you won't get groups. As a rule, players figure out who is good and who is bad over time. But there are always exceptions.

Tramp · Mar 16, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

What matters is how good you are perceived to be by the players that assemble teams. If you're the best Monk/Ranger/Mesmer/Warrior in the game and no one knows about it, you won't get groups.

I once decided to earn a fame point for fun and do some pvp. I joined a group as a monk, pinged my bar, all was good. Then they asked me to flash my animal rank. So I flashed them my panda pet and they booted me! Jerks... Panda beats tiger or deer anyday!

Getting back to UW, until they actually nerf SF, pugs/noobs/non speed clear build characters need not apply. The skill changes did the opposite of what they intended.

You killed my 600 monk, I kill a panda: part 1

Polgara Val · Mar 16, 2010, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You have to understand group dynamics to understand why many teams have no patience for bad play or educating players. A team's patience for education and poor play is that of the least patient player. The team is only as strong as its weakest link. If you cannot hold your own as well as someone else could, you are wasting the time of seven other players. Odds are that one of the seven players has little patience for wasted time.

While the game itself would be improved by the patient education of new players, the impatient player's experience is not. The most impatient player in a team is usually a strong player. That confers some bargaining leverage; the impatient player can usually demand that a quality team take only strong players, and threaten to leave the group as the punishment for failure to comply. This is just as true in PvE as it is in GvG or HA.

This is the hard truth of online gaming. It doesn't matter how good you are. What matters is how good you are perceived to be by the players that assemble teams. If you're the best Monk/Ranger/Mesmer/Warrior in the game and no one knows about it, you won't get groups. As a rule, players figure out who is good and who is bad over time. But there are always exceptions.

Smooth mate what can I say.

Dark Saviour · Mar 16, 2010, 02:02 AM // 02:02

I'll preface this by saying that I've had issues with getting into UW groups as well, but not particularly because of "experience", but because I'm not looking to do a speed-clear and play a Ranger.

But ultimately, my response is directed at some of the main issues I see brought up in this discussion. I know this is fairly tangential, but I feel like posting my feelings on the subject.

I know its not exactly a new phenomenon, but it's depressing that the community has become so antisocial and businesslike that everything is relegated to "success" or "failure" without any apparent enjoyment in actually playing the game.

Is it annoying to fail? Sure; but I don't believe that alone should make time spent seem "wasted". However because the majority of the population, especially in end-game areas, seem to regard other players as, at best, tools to achieve a specific goal, the game's atmosphere degenerates into something awkward, systematic, and to me at least, unpleasant. People simply want to achieve goal "X", will thus only want to play with others that they feel will contribute to "X", and really have no interest in them beyond their capacity to aid in achieving "X". And it is this failure of the social aspect that I believe contributes significantly to such a wedge being driven in the game.

I know that making such a blanket statement is going to draw ire, but that's simply how things in-game appear to have become to me. I'm well aware that alot of it has to do with the game's age, but the lack of interest in the community itself BY the members of the community strike me as being the biggest issue.

As for the inevitable response that PuGs aren't for social interaction and that it is something to keep to guilds, well, personally that is a major issue I have WITH guilds, actually; they splinter the community. Essentially, rather than playing with members of the entire community, looking for people that you particularly enjoy playing with, and forming regular groups with them, you're basically locked into joining a guild from the start. It doesn't matter how good a guild is, to me, it's the individual members of a community that I care about. Thus, I'm not just looking to join a guild because my individual playstyle is "X", and the guild's members will facilitate that. No... What I'm looking for are the members of the community that I most enjoy interacting with as a whole. And as such, I'd like to readily play with the whole community rather than one tiny subset of it. And the guild mentality completely kills this. In general, once someone joins a guild they deem satisfactory, it seems that "the guild" takes priority and little regard is paid to the rest of the population at that point.

I await all of the responses contradicting my points and say simply that this is how the game appears to me IN GENERAL. Obviously, there are exceptions and this is probably one of the bleakest interpretations of the situation.

Ultimately, certain aspects of the game's design seem to have partially lead things to where they are, but like everything else, at this point, they're not really something that can be changed. In truth though, I've already accepted that things are how they are and that they're not going to change. The current situation has essentially killed any enjoyment I get from the game and it saddens me to think of what the game COULD be with a more social community.

TLDR: "Success"-obsessed, antisocial community + Fragmented community in general = Bad. Having fun while actually playing and interacting with the community in general = Good.

cellardweller · Mar 16, 2010, 02:18 AM // 02:18

It only takes 2 people to do UW - if you can't find a single friend to do UW with, something is wrong and it might not be the system.

sthpaw · Mar 16, 2010, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

It only takes 2 people to do UW - if you can't find a single friend to do UW with, something is wrong and it might not be the system.

2 people now? really? got a screen shot and any tips? been thinking of a setup for a full clear but no luck with heros.

Arkantos · Mar 16, 2010, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Thanks for the support. I feel sorry for the newer players because there are so many elitist snobs in the game.

The game is 5 years old, lots of people (especially people who have been playing for years) play the game to win at what they're doing, not take time to help random new people out. Welcome to online communities in old, declining games.

I don't play a lot anymore, but when I play I want to have fun, and losing is not fun. I want to complete whatever I'm doing without much trouble, I don't want to take new players, teach them how to do it, do it slowly and possibly wipe. Call me an elitist snob if you'd like, but the ugly truth is that if you're new coming into this game, it's going to be a hell of a tough time, and it's going to be even tougher if you can't build a solid friends list. You can't really expect anything else.

RhanoctJocosa · Mar 16, 2010, 05:24 AM // 05:24

don't listen to arky he's just angry coz he's canadian and missing teeth.

i'm sure newbies can find nice carebear pve groups that will hold your hand while you slay the demons of fow/uw.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 16, 2010, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by madsGW

1. get a guild
2. uninstall

LOL your e-peen is showing...glad to see when someone doesnt play the way you do, they're wrong and shouldnt have ever played in the first place, makes perfect sense

>__> honestly if all people look for is fast cash then there is no way a player in a smaller guild can get into UW without lying about experience.

They are noobs yes, but theres a bit of a paradox here

You need to be experienced to do UW and FoW, BUT in order to get experience YOUNEED TO DO FoW AND UW....see the problem?

Quit the QQ Its gunna happen anyways, as long as a standard is held, and i can understand why people dont want noobs, but what other choice are they given, give them some slack, they just want to learn how the hell to do something.

cellardweller · Mar 16, 2010, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sthpaw

2 people now? really? got a screen shot and any tips? been thinking of a setup for a full clear but no luck with heros.

I haven't logged into the game since they added dhumm so I can't comment on him but nothing special is required to do the quests leading up to the battle. From memory we have used earthshaker + mop/ap as the humans and 2xhybrid monk + Channeling rit + HEV Mes + ToF Para + SF Ele. Some things like HEV have been nerfed since then but you've gained access to eotn pve skills, consumables and your heroes can see the ghosts (and therefor heal without micromanagement) so it should more than balance out.