Curse

drkn · Apr 15, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Also, keep in mind that when we do skill balances, we try to avoid PvE and PvP splits, as that's more overhead on the game, and is confusing to have so many splits.

still, confusing is better than sucking ass. if a mesmer is a pvp-oriented and pvp-designed class, splits might be useful in that case.

are you able to tell us when we may get the preliminary update notes? in months - that is, are there any hopes for getting the notes in april, or is it sure for may (even the second part), or it might happen in may but will surely come in june?

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

JDRyder · Apr 15, 2010, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Today I've turned in my full GWEN NM Dungeon book (my last one since I think that pushed my last title above 8) and 2 full HM mission books. I still need to fill my HM Dungeon book and I already have 2 more HM mission books in the making (I think each is lacking like 3 or so missions to be full).
Bringing a dumbass build won't magically result in my books being filled.
Grinding my ass off will.

Grats on proving Gill Halendt and I right then I guess?

You just want to get from A to B as fast as possible and expect Anet alone to keep the game entertaining for you.

upier · Apr 15, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Risus · Apr 15, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Backfire (PvE): For 10...18...25 seconds, spells targeting foes backfire and affect all nearby foes.

Gill Halendt · Apr 15, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem isn't going from A to B.
The problem is that I have to go from A to B and then back to A. And then to B again. A again. B again. A again. B ...

I would much rather go from A to B to C to D to E to F ... because I think I have proven after going from A to B for the FIRST time that I can get from A to B.

You don't HAVE to. From Anet's perspective, once you've reached B, you're done. It's YOUR CHOICE to go back to A and start over.

JDRyder · Apr 15, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You don't HAVE to. From Anet's perspective, once you've reached B, you're done. It's YOUR CHOICE to go back to A and start over.

Not to mention you actually have to go to C, D, E, F ect to do them :/

Chthon · Apr 16, 2010, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

So you suggest we should change the game to cater to who? You? Elite players? You don't makes changes that benefit the top 1-5% of a population, you make changes that benefit the lower 10-80% who represent the normal. Sorry we don't run things like America, go QQ about it elsewhere. Changes aren't ever going to make everyone happy, that's fact.

With this, I must take issue. Player-option-to-player-option balance needs to exist at every level. A situation where mesmers cannot get PUGs for DoA, but are really popular with the ZQuest PUG crowd, is just as bad as a situation where mesmers cannot get a group with the ZQuest PUG crowd, but are desired in DoA. In my mind, player-option-to-player-option balance really should be done in a vacuum, completely without reference to players.

Player-option-to-environment-challenge balancing (aka difficulty balancing) is another story. In that arena, I agree that you need to balance for the average player (which is going to leave top players with a game they find a bit easy). So...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And this thing now isn't the most overpowered thing in the game.
There actually are better options than this.
Which means that the things that are "viable" are so obscenely overpowered that they shouldn't even be in the game, let alone represent the norm.
For instance, mesmers have caster induced AoE daze though FD.
They have unlimited energy through AP.
Insta-cast KDs, deep wounds, ... though PvE-only skills.
Dervishes suffer under the same thing. They are the vessel for the insane physical buffs. They can use SY! Covered DW every few secs.
And just like the mesmer they are considered to not be viable. And the only reason why that is so is because our idea of what is "viable" is completely broken.

You're just going to have to accept that your opinion of where the difficulty bar should be set is pretty far off where market forces tell a-net to place it.

------------

In case anyone cares (which you very well may not), I'm thinking more and more that the skill to slow down monsters to make them interruptable in HM should be a general PvE skill and not a mesmer skill. Probably Tryptophan Signet. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to fix the monsters-are-too-fast-to-interrupt-in-HM problem for the mesmer, while leaving the problem in place for the ranger, which is also a woefully underpowered class in PvE right now. That also allows the three fundamental mesmer weaknesses for which you really don't want to do a monster buff to be addressed by one PvE skill each instead of trying to stuff two solutions into one skill. (As proposed, CoP solves the lack-of-damage problem (at least in part); TrypSig solves the monsters-are-too-fast-to-interrupt-in-HM problem; and Ether Nightmare solves the e-denial-is-totally-useless problem.) I've updated my previous post to reflect this.

aeronox · Apr 16, 2010, 05:19 AM // 05:19

How the dual profession system impacts Mesmer balance... Fast Casting is fundamentally similar to other primary attributes, but with 6-8 out of 10 classes utilising Spells, it has potentially the greatest impact.

#1 - Primary Mesmers using Secondary Skills
Examples: Long Casts - Water Magic & Necromancy
Which means: Be careful when buffing Fast Casting

#2 - Other Primaries using Mesmer Skills
Examples: Utilities - Stances & some Inspiration
Which means: Be careful when buffing individual Skills

(sorry gtg)

Ahh I am at work atm, but when I get home I'll put my thoughts into a blog post. I'm glad a TK guy is watching this thread.

upier · Apr 16, 2010, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Gill Halendt · Apr 16, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem with grind is that it represents content.

Optional content. You can play GW without any grinding whatsoever. Again, your choice to stay and experience it

The alternative is simple: since we don't get any more playable content by design, grind, or quit.

People have been living without GW for thousands years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if the player chooses to experience this content - a good game designer will not justify dumb decisions with the player choosing to play this content rather than being forced to play it.
Dumb ideas are dumb ideas.

Dumb ideas such as...? Realizing that stuffing ill-conceived content in the first game was a bad idea?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And some of the grind is just dumb because it fails to serve that basic purpose of being the carrot on a stick. The stick is so long that you can't even see the carrot.
It pretty much just serves to feed some really unhealthy behaviour.

Actually, many people have seen so many carrots by now. And ate them. So the stick isn't really that long.

There are a few cases of the stick being probably too long, and those are mainly:

- Lucky/Unlucky - Little to no impact on the game, multiple ways of obtaining it, absolutely optional. Only reason to obtain it: GWAMM, but you have easier alternatives; HoM, but r3 in this title track is enough to get the achievement on the Monument of Honor.
- Kurzick/Luxon - See above
- Wisdom/Treasure Hunter - Purchasable, could use some rework
- Zaishen - Purely cosmetic, doesn't need to be maxed to be added to the HoM

Unhealty behaviour? Probably. That's what you need to keep up with a 5 years old game that doesn't get any new playable content since 2007: you really must be an excited fan to do that... Faculty of choice is the key. ANet runs a business, they have all the interests in keeping players busy. They are no nannies.

Again, you're given a choice: find compulsive grinding boring and unhealty? Play something else in the meanwhile. Getting carrots faster will have you asking for more carrots sooner, so it won't solve the problem.

Really, I see your point. The problem is, there's no way to fix by just toning down grinding. The answer is "fresh content", and we all know we won't get anything like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Don't get me wrong here - I almost mained my assassin because he's pretty much the closest to an iWin button when playing with h/h as it gets. So I seriously have no problems (ab)using this monster crap.

That's your problem, really. I chose not to play Assassins at all because I find iWin buttons boring and really reductive, and I'm glad I was given the choice. Also, your magic iWin button (a shitton of buffs on an Assassin) doesn't impress me at all. You could get the same effects with six AP/GoS/MS Eles and two monks, and then call Meteor Shower "overpowered". So, you see... What's the point in fixing the game, when people are too lazy to use their own brains and look for alternatives instead of cheap iWin buttons and abuses?

drkn · Apr 16, 2010, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

- Kurzick/Luxon - See above

disagree

Gill Halendt · Apr 16, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

disagree

Everything else applies tough.

Also, most of those skills are maxed/near maxed already @ r8/10, so you don't need the maxed title to use them to their full extent. R4 is also enough for the HoM.

The only reason to have allegiance titles maxed is one more point for the GWAMM or completionist's syndrome. Both of those are player-side issues.

Master Mxyzptlk · Apr 16, 2010, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Everything else applies tough.

Also, most of those skills are maxed/near maxed already @ r8/10, so you don't need the maxed title to use them to their full extent. R4 is also enough for the HoM.

The only reason to have allegiance titles maxed is one more point for the GWAMM or completionist's syndrome. Both of those are player-side issues.

r8 requires 2.5 million points. r10 twice that. for almost every player I know, r1 is intimidating, r5 the highest conceivable, and thats after grinding a lot. most people go to r8 sunspear (not too hard if you bring a book) and end up getting to r4/5 in most eotn titles, maybe r6 in one, and giving up on being as good as a lot of other players because time>skill (which fits with GW's original idea). Think of people with full time jobs who play a couple hours on the weekend. They're not interested in spending those couple hours vanquishing a luxon area over and over every week just so eventually they can get "save yourselves!" and be let into groups in those hard areas they can never manage to beat with heroes and henchmen (or that don't allow henchmen).

And now, completely unrelated to the discussion at hand, "mesmer speculation"

MagmaRed · Apr 16, 2010, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The player chose to play GW over a more balanced game, so it's not A.Net's problem that the mesmer does not perform as nicely as an assassin.
Right?

Odd, because my Mesmer performs better than my Assassin. Reason is because I do not use melee classes well (any of them). It is an issue of play style. I have had no problem (none) completing HM stuff with my Mesmer. I have all but about 5 missions done on Guardian, I have vanquished most of Factions (haven't started much on this yet), I have FoW armor I crafted during one of my 3 HM clears with a balanced team, I have cleared UW with a balanced team, and I have all of the Eye of the North titles at rank 8 or higher. And this is on a class that is 5th on my list of most used, behind my Ranger, Monk, Necro, and Ritualist.

Funny, but I just don't see Mesmer being unable to do things. I don't even see them unable to do things well. I do see them doing things less effectively than some classes, but less effective does not mean ineffective.

Gill Halendt · Apr 16, 2010, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Mxyzptlk

Think of people with full time jobs who play a couple hours on the weekend. They're not interested in spending those couple hours vanquishing a luxon area over and over every week just so eventually they can get "save yourselves!" and be let into groups in those hard areas they can never manage to beat with heroes and henchmen (or that don't allow henchmen).

So, don't. I've been "playing for a couple of hours in the weekend" for 3 years now. Had no problems getting my full HoM and GWAMM anyway.

It just took longer for me. How's that a problem? I've been playing regularly for almost 5 years now and never got bored of the game thanks to that.

It's funny how people here despise PuGs, yet the one and only reason why grinding seems to affect their game is the difficulty of getting into some PuGs that discriminate... Find guilds, friends or simply better PuGs. Or play H/H with the magical "iWin Button" by upier. Or even without it.

I did it - I've played everything with close friends or H/H - and never found a problem. When the challenge was steep, this served me to improve my skills and find some way to make it.

People are just asking for easier, faster achievements - and don't realize that faster accomplishments will just mean a shorter lifespan of the game for them in the process.

Definition of achievement:

Quote:

a·chieve·ment
n.
1. The act of accomplishing or finishing.
2. Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance.

So, achievements require either exertion, skill, practice and/or perseverance. Since some of those achievements in the game don't take any skill (Lucky/Unlucky, Wisdom/Treasure Hunter, Zaishen - those are, incidentally, the ones where grinding is at its highest extent), removing the perseverance requirement doesn't make any sense.

The mere fact that GW was advertised as a game where skill > time doesn't mean that anyone must achieve anything (expecially OPTIONAL feats), and not in a matter of hours anyway.

Coast · Apr 16, 2010, 01:29 PM // 13:29

mesmers are beasts in pve also

maxxfury · Apr 16, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by people

about grind

Grind is mostly something you choose to do...as its mostly cosmetic and for your own satisfactions. and purely optional.

The only grind i have a gripe about is the grind for pve skills levels..to make them effective.. admittedly they compressed the upper and lower levels to make them more powerful at lower rank levels....but stilll they are too powerfull in general....

Personally i think they should be either unlocked or not at one strength ragardless of rank...and that would imo give a lot more insentive to roll new toons for people who dislike grind..(i have zero MAX titles btw on principle :P)

and that was too offtopic but meh

Erm.. mesmers with mesmer skills that can "compete" would be nice...?

upier · Apr 16, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

trankle · Apr 16, 2010, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

The only grind i have a gripe about is the grind for pve skills levels..to make them effective.. admittedly they compressed the upper and lower levels to make them more powerful at lower rank levels....but stilll they are too powerfull in general....

Personally i think they should be either unlocked or not at one strength ragardless of rank...and that would imo give a lot more insentive to roll new toons for people who dislike grind..(i have zero MAX titles btw on principle :P)

While we're off-topic...

The best way to handle PvE skills, IMO, would have been to simply add a "PvE Skills" attribute to every player. The PvE skills' strength would be tied to the amount of points invested in the attribute, just like any other skill (with special exceptions: Critical Agility, etc, which are tied to existing attributes). This would be much more in the spirit of GW: you have 200 points to use, now find a balance. Want a maximum power EVAS? You're going to have to sacrifice the points that could be going into another attribute.