Curse

Karate Jesus · May 05, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

First, the tone of the thread is incredibly immature. Peritions to demand responses? Where have good manners, polite behavior and similar gone? Also,how, on what basis would one demand a response?

Oh good lord, people. It's a phrase. "Petition to Demand Response" is a legal term used by protesters. I thought it was common knowledge, but apparently all of the white knights here think it's a grenade they can jump on to save Anet's life.

We're not "demanding" anything, we're "requesting". Otherwise, there'd be no need for a petition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

I feel that the general tone of this thread really shows the ingratitude of far too many players.

To be fair, that ingratitude was earned by Anet. We've gotten far too used to late updates, poor account security, game-breaking bugs, and a bot meta to have a gentle "tone" at this point.

Now, obviously those of us here still care about the game or the community, otherwise why would we be here? A negative tone doesn't mean we don't appreciate Anet's staff's hard work. It means that we're frustrated, because of our love for the game/staff and know that they're more than likely frustrated too.

We'd just like to hear that.

dan_dv · May 05, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

If I buy something and find out that it is "broken", I "request" it to be fixed.
If the seller dont care, I will buy from a different seller next time.

/signed

Tramp · May 05, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

.... don't you think that might affect ecto prices and eventually you?

....

Trust me, they wont sell cheap. Most botters are smart enough to keep from selling low regardless of how many ectos flood the market.

Just like cupcakes. People still sell them between 75-100k/stack regardless of the fact that they were botted and flooded the market. They should have been 60k/ea or less, but people were refusing to take that.

The same thing will happen with ectos.

You seem to forget economics 101. Supply AND demand. Supply does not set the market price. The intersection of both variables do. No mean spirited botter can make someone pay 75-100k for his cupcakes unless he comes and knocks on your door and puts a gun to your head. Same thing with ectos. If they refuse to sell their ectos, then using your own argument, it will NOT affect you or me. If they do sell, prices will drop on ectos, and things will be cheaper. Sounds like a good thing to me. Poor people win. Rich botters with tons of ectos lose since the buying power of their stacks of ectos just went down the toilet. The marketplace solves itself because eventually they could drive down the price so low that it is not worth botting anymore. Remember when elemental swords were a rich man's toy? I made my living powertrading them at 100k+200e or more. Now they are 10k. Who benefitted? The poor guy did. He can now afford an elemental sword skin for 10k instead of it being in the hands of the stinking rich guys. The stinky rich guys lost out when their exclusive skins went from 1 million plus down to 10k. I paid 3000e for one of the first 29 everlasting beetle tonics when they were exclusive. I recently sold mine to a friend for 300e since now they are more common thanks to the z-chest. Who lost? Me, the stinking rich guy at the time. Who won? The not so rich guy who can pay 10% of what they used to cost. So... if your argument is that ectos are going to drop in price from the massive supply, I say "Good!" Rich guys and botters will lose. The rest of us hobos can buy some cheap ectos and blow them on some new toys, and if people do not want to trade in ectos, who cares, the botters sitting on piles of them can sell them even cheaper while we trade in gold or lockpits or shards or whatever. (Do not tell me the price of items will adjust for the price of ectos because I powertraded through the last 2 major fluctuations in ectos from 5k down to 3.3k back up to 8k+ then down to the current 6.5-7k, and I can tell you one thing, the price of the rare weps and minis I was buying and the price I was able to get stayed contant in ectos no matter what the price of the ectos was. As an aside, I was able to powertrade so much easier when ectos were low than when they were high. So poor people who want to become rich powertraders should welcome cheap ectos with open arms. I never found trading easier than when ectos were worth crap.)

And another thing, I keep reading this stupid argument that if other people get a title easy then it hurt me when I got my titles the hard way. No it does not. Your gameplay and your titles do not affect mine in any way. If they cut the requirements for titles in half tomorrow, that did not harm me in any way even though I slogged through a buttload of grind to get my gwamm. It might hurt my feelings, but I get called a noob 10 times a day and I am getting used to getting my feelings hurt in GW.

Remove the grind, reduce the title requirements, reverse the retarded decisions that nerfed skills for ursan, sf, 600 monks, and I will be willing to bet anything, that people stop looking for title shortcuts through botting and instead get them the fun way like we did in the past because the time vs. reward ratios will be back in line. I would love to gwamm my other characters, but right now the time (grind) vs. reward (gold or titles) is f---'d up so one is enough for me.

vandevere · May 05, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, or anything, but, it looks to me like botting is going to be one of those things that never goes away...

With all the advances in tech that keep on coming, it will always be possible for botters to keep one step ahead of the mods and admins.

Now, last Winter, Aion tried to do something about those bots-they used an automated process to identify the bots-and banned them by the thousands.

The problem was that there was a high incidence of collateral damage, lots of innocent players got banned too.

On the other hand, Mods and Admins can go into the game, and personally ban the bots, but they can only ban on bot at a time.

There's less chance of collateral damage that way, but it wasn't fast enough for the complainers, who wanted all the bots gone yesterday.

The point is that Aion took a severe hit to its reputation by over-banning, and wrongful banning, to satisfy the complainers, and also escalated the Bot Wars, by causing the botters to get into hacking other players accounts to bot with.

Thing is, you can either go fast to satisfy the complainers, and make lots of mistakes along the way, or you can go slow, ban on a one-by-one basis, make less mistakes and wrongful bans, and listen to endless complaints from the complainers that the company just doesn't care about its players...

Another Felldspar · May 05, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Just like cupcakes. People still sell them between 75-100k/stack regardless of the fact that they were botted and flooded the market. They should have been 60k/ea or less, but people were refusing to take that.

The same thing will happen with ectos.

Make up your mind. Will the botters ruin the economy with cheap ecto, or will they refuse to take less than what is the current market value? You've made two posts saying opposite things. But, I guess I should be used to that from you. This whole thread is full of it: "Botting is a problem!" "Go ahead and Bot, it's no problem, you can get the bot programs free and nothing will happen to you!" "There will be a new bot available soon! Free Ecto!"

You're like the whole marketing program for the bot sellers. You and Guru. Ridiculous.

lishi · May 05, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Felldspar

Make up your mind. Will the botters ruin the economy with cheap ecto, or will they refuse to take less than what is the current market value?

Their resolve already have some cracks.

You can buy stacks of cupcake now for 11e witch is btw less then you could during event.

Ecto eventually will follow too.

Quote:

You've made two posts saying opposite things. But, I guess I should be used to that from you. This whole thread is full of it: "Botting is a problem!" "Go ahead and Bot, it's no problem, you can get the bot programs free and nothing will happen to you!" "There will be a new bot available soon! Free Ecto!"

You're like the whole marketing program for the bot sellers. You and Guru. Ridiculous.

yes botting is a problem, i was buying some unid today when i asked myself... so why im buying stuff that probably are botted when all i have to do is fire up a bot on my secondary account?

The bot tech reached a point where everyone can do that with a simple google search who will lead you to a trustworthy forum where you can download bots.

Other people will eventually realize that and they will either stop bothering about buying or selling stuff and/or they will join the bot party.

Riot Narita · May 05, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by merek

Really? look at all the ones (not only W/N but also E/Me) that come into the circle directly in front of the zoning area and then turn immediately around an d go right back outside.. you try and do it.. you can't

Hilariously wrong.

I wonder how many people you reported for being bots, just because they know how to walk back into town before starting their farming, and type /resign at the end of every run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Septeric

yes.. and not only that.. they have random movements and random paths.

Sometimes it's the random behaviour that makes bots obvious. eg. Some of the HFFF bots did random movements around town, emotes etc between their runs. Which made them almost as easy to spot, as the bots that got stuck on the walls or followed the exact same path out theh door every time.

HFFF was extremely tedious, and you had to do thousands of runs to get anywhere. Most human farmers therefore didn't waste time running around town, or doing emotes between runs... they just ran out the door as fast as they could. And when they weren't doing that, they were usually motionless (afk, or reporting bots), chatting with people etc.

xxUnReaLxx1 · May 05, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Lucky Charm II

Where did you get this number?

Most of the bots you have listed here are PvP bots. I don't see why you would want to fix this; you can use this to your advantage. Bots are not that smart... Interrupt bots can easily be tricked if you cancel your skill before they interrupt you.

This game is no different than real life. It is still subjected to the law of supply and demand. Sooner or later, the price for these cupcakes will fall drastically and the bots will become obsolete.

There is no need to fix any of these bots. Banning players won't help either. Just join the botter and help make this community a better place. If everyone bots, we will all be on even field.

NOT SIGNED

you are an idiot. there is something about the fact that a computer can run continued commands over and over all night long without messing up or missing a step, that a human can not do. Making humans obsolete to them, also, rupt bots dont rupt you until the last halfasecond or so before your spell ends, you can not cancel to trick it easily. Cupcakes shouldnt fall in price, theyre supposed to be a one time a year thing making them valued. bots make them worthless almost. More cupcakes=more farming=more bots=more materials=more supply=less demand=economy crash=money is harder to come across=more bot farming ... /cycle get the point, grow up,

also: /signed

coil · May 05, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxUnReaLxx1

economy crash

i've always wondered why those that care about "the economy" play a game that, by design, has no economy.

Septeric · May 05, 2010, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Remove the grind, reduce the title requirements, reverse the retarded decisions that nerfed skills for ursan, sf, 600 monks, and I will be willing to bet anything, that people stop looking for title shortcuts through botting and instead get them the fun way like we did in the past because the time vs. reward ratios will be back in line.

i tend to agree that it would stop the massive growth of the botting community.. but i still think the genie is out of the bottle and too many new players are going straight to botting because their friends are showing them how easy it is vs. the reward/risk factor..

having said that... and not being a PvP'er.. i can't imagine how the above solution would help that situation though.

Martin Alvito · May 05, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

i've always wondered why those that care about "the economy" play a game that, by design, has no economy.

Because that's just a lie. The game has scarce stuff people want. Players exchange it. All you need for the most basic economy is two people and two goods (each of which must be valued by at least one person). GW has many more of both.

Karate Jesus · May 05, 2010, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Felldspar

Make up your mind. Will the botters ruin the economy with cheap ecto, or will they refuse to take less than what is the current market value? You've made two posts saying opposite things. But, I guess I should be used to that from you. This whole thread is full of it: "Botting is a problem!" "Go ahead and Bot, it's no problem, you can get the bot programs free and nothing will happen to you!" "There will be a new bot available soon! Free Ecto!"

I'm sorry, you must have misread what I wrote. Botters could potentially ruin the economy, NOT by driving down ecto/item cost by overfarming BUT by overfarming and maintaining price.

Now, I could see how that might be hard for you to understand, but if supply goes up, yet demand is controlled, then you have a bigger problem than if the price crashes (e.g. US housing market in 2000/2008).

And there's still always the chance that prices will crash anyway, which is obviously also a bad outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Felldspar

You're like the whole marketing program for the bot sellers. You and Guru. Ridiculous.

And I assume that anti-drug commercials promote drugs? Um....no. Giving people information isn't marketing. Spinning that information in a positive way is.

Botting is bad for the game. Don't hear me saying anything other than that.

Martin Alvito · May 05, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I'm sorry, you must have misread what I wrote. Botters could potentially ruin the economy, NOT by driving down ecto/item cost by overfarming BUT by overfarming and maintaining price.

Now, I could see how that might be hard for you to understand, but if supply goes up, yet demand is controlled, then you have a bigger problem than if the price crashes (e.g. US housing market in 2000/2008).

Let's set the record straight since there's a lot of dubious economics now floating around this thread. KJ has observed that item prices remained the same even though the supply increased dramatically. There's a reason for that. Demand is more or less transparent in GW. If you're a seller, you know whether people want to buy your stuff at your price and can rapidly adjust your pricing.

Supply is much less transparent. If people are botting, the market will eventually stop clearing, but demand at the market price has to be exhausted before the price will fall. People on Guru are relatively well informed compared to most of the playerbase. Most players don't know that a botting problem exists, and they don't update their pricing expectations in response to a change in supply. But eventually those players have all the cupcakes they need at the market price, and the price starts to fall.

So KJ is right that the botting has produced an asset bubble that will eventually burst, but is off on why. "Ruin the economy" is probably an overstatement; as long as it is impossible to bot either ecto, zkeys or armbraces, a semi-sane economy will result (but some people will get hurt badly and others will make a killing). If all three can be botted easily, then we're in for another ugly price spiral.

KJ's opponents are correct that the market will reprice, but they are missing the bubble that has formed, why it formed, and how the bubble benefits the botter at the expense of the consumer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

And another thing, I keep reading this stupid argument that if other people get a title easy then it hurt me when I got my titles the hard way. No it does not. Your gameplay and your titles do not affect mine in any way. If they cut the requirements for titles in half tomorrow, that did not harm me in any way even though I slogged through a buttload of grind to get my gwamm. It might hurt my feelings, but I get called a noob 10 times a day and I am getting used to getting my feelings hurt in GW.

This argument is garbage. I bet you'd be pretty unhappy if ANet released 10,000 Kanaxais tomorrow, Tramp. The value of a Kanaxai is tied up in its exclusivity. Not everyone can dedicate one. Take that away, and the years of labor you invested to acquire the goodies to buy a Kanaxai with go right out the window.

Karate Jesus · May 05, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

So KJ is right that the botting has produced an asset bubble that will eventually burst, but is off on why. "Ruin the economy" is probably an overstatement; as long as it is impossible to bot either ecto, zkeys or armbraces, a semi-sane economy will result (but some people will get hurt badly and others will make a killing). If all three can be botted easily, then we're in for another ugly price spiral.

Well, I'm no economist, so I was just doing my best to explain the two most probable outcomes of ecto botting. However, your post makes a lot of sense and is not far off with zkey and ecto botting a modern reality.

I know that Regina took off for a few days, but I'm kind of shocked that we haven't had a reply on this yet.....but of course this isn't a GW2Guru thread about what color a Charr character's butthole hairs will be. Present concerns are discarded for "WILL WE GET PETZ?!" threads at this point.

*sigh*

Bob Slydell · May 05, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Wouldn't matter. Game companies don't take gamers seriously when they boycott, and for good reason.

Look at L4D2. They had a petition to boycott it since L4D1 hadn't even had a map pack released and had several bug issues when 2 was coming out. Valve ignored the petition and still sold just as many as they most likely would have.

Gamers buy games they're excited about, regardless of whether or not they're pissed at the company....and the companies know that.

True . The people in the Anti-L4D2 group were pre ordering L4D2 faster than people who weren't. Which has opened my eyes to realize when people say they are going to boycott <game> they are just blowing hot air and joining a QQ wagon for the lulz.

FoxBat · May 05, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Even if everyone on a message board who were saying they would boycott something did, it's not like they are even a drop in the bucket next to the silent masses that have better things to do than troll forums.

Barrage · May 05, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Well if we look back at some older boycotts and messages to developers, we can see stuff like MW2

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...d.cgi?dedis4mw

254483 Total Signatures, seems like a lot huh? Well it even that number wasn't enough to make the developer implement dedicated servers to MW2.

Karate Jesus · May 05, 2010, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Well if we look back at some older boycotts and messages to developers, we can see stuff like MW2

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...d.cgi?dedis4mw

254483 Total Signatures, seems like a lot huh? Well it even that number wasn't enough to make the developer implement dedicated servers to MW2.

^ like I said earlier, Game developers don't care about boycotts as they rarely take their customers' demands seriously (and shouldn't). Gamers are fickle. They'll buy either way.

Honestly, as a gamer, you have no power outside of what they give us. With GW2 coming out and the devs abandonment of GW1, that leaves us with no power.

We can ask for a comment, for help, or for support, but that doesn't mean we'll get it. I hope we do, because that would encourage me at least a little that Anet still cares about this game.

Fillyra · May 05, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

/notsigned if you really want Anet's attention open up NCsoft support tickets.

I haven't seen any bots either and they haven't been affecting my gameplay of the game. *shrug*

even went to HA and looked around for 3 hours didn't see any bots.

Either way I have faith in Anet that they're doing a great job and they'll get these bots even without needing to respond to this thread. :x

Karate Jesus · May 05, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fillyra

/notsigned if you really want Anet's attention open up NCsoft support tickets.

I haven't seen any bots either and they haven't been affecting my gameplay of the game. *shrug*

even went to HA and looked around for 3 hours didn't see any bots.

Either way I have faith in Anet that they're doing a great job and they'll get these bots even without needing to respond to this thread. :x

Hit B during a mAT. You'll see all the bots you want. Hell, a guild's tag in this month's mAT was a botting program name Zzz.