Curse

Killed u man · Jun 13, 2010, 01:37 AM // 01:37

And a direct reply to the OP:

I get your main points, but I don't really know what you're asking here. Ok, you've specifically asked about the RWT's, but to what extend does it matter?

Any person RWT'ing knows he can get banned, and any person not doing so shouldn't care.

However, I would like to reply specifically to the issue of people abusing exploits. These exploits (Duncan, dual modding of green weapons, speedbooking) are borderline cheating, and really do need a stance from Anet so people know what to expect.

However, I personally would like a direct in-game reply (Like the yellow message we get now), and not some half-baked PR person saying what is allowed and whatnot. Gaile has already screwed over myself and some other people this way. (By saying a certain exploit was not banable, yet they still banned me/us)

Speedbookers, dual modders, exploiters in general are all walking that line on which Anet can, if they please, ban them. It's just so frustrating for me, as a player who tries to abide by the rules, when you see other people making 500+ ectos from these exploits (dual modded greens sold for alot), and you're stuck with no real way of making money. We haven't even started on the "speed title-ing" then...

And the most frustrating part about all this is, is that when they finally fix it, all the exploiters walk free. I agree that to an extend, there needs to be some tolerance (Not everyone abusing it deserve a perm ban/acount strip), but when noone even gets touched, that is pretty "red engine" up.

All this does is leave people with that feeling in their gut wishing they had abused the exploit when they had the chance, and solely promotes further abuse of exploits.

The recent dual modding (or current speedbooking) is the perfect example. Certain people, who go unnamed

, made over 500 ectos in just a couple of hours by selling health +60 axes to unknowing people. Not only did they gain direct profit from an exploit, they are also scamming people because that simply isn't the real value of these items.

If you then see noone got banned, yet some people kept their redicilous profits, you wish you had abused the exploit when you had the chance. Unless offcourse you have a moral issue what that, but that's completely besides the point.

The problem is that I (and I assume tons of other people) are always being faced with the hard choice of "to exploit or not to exploit" because we simply have no clue what Anet will do. And we are getting peer pressured into choosing, because not abusing the exploit will only mean you'll be missing out on alot of title points/gold. (As the recent exploits illustrated)

Martin Alvito · Jun 13, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Yes, Borat, you can kill the bots if you kill the in-game economy. It's the only way short of balancing out wage rates across the world. Unfortunately, ANet wants to sell accounts to hardcore farmers and the people that sit in Kamadan too.

Yes, ANet's position on exploits is absurd. I've raged about it before. It's ethnocentric; Gaile's "common sense" test fails hard because morality and cultural standards vary sharply (especially in business dealings) from place to place. It forces us all to live with the risk of permabans; success at the highest levels of PvP and PvE fundamentally revolves around exploiting game mechanics for advantage, but we can only know ex post whether a given exploit is perfectly acceptable or bannable.

But Gaile's spoken on that matter too, and she provided valid reasons for not providing a list. What ANet needs is a consistent policy that can be communicated clearly and applied consistently, then stick to that policy come hell or agonized forum screaming.

Ka Tet · Jun 14, 2010, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Yes, Borat, you can kill the bots if you kill the in-game economy. It's the only way short of balancing out wage rates across the world. Unfortunately, ANet wants to sell accounts to hardcore farmers and the people that sit in Kamadan too.

Yes, ANet's position on exploits is absurd. I've raged about it before. It's ethnocentric; Gaile's "common sense" test fails hard because morality and cultural standards vary sharply (especially in business dealings) from place to place. It forces us all to live with the risk of permabans; success at the highest levels of PvP and PvE fundamentally revolves around exploiting game mechanics for advantage, but we can only know ex post whether a given exploit is perfectly acceptable or bannable.

But Gaile's spoken on that matter too, and she provided valid reasons for not providing a list. What ANet needs is a consistent policy that can be communicated clearly and applied consistently, then stick to that policy come hell or agonized forum screaming.

Agreed.
The only thing I'd disagree with is that despite having Gaile's valid reasons, that list does need to be made and kept accessible to the community. When there are valid reasons on both sides and one side has all the power, it is the defenseless side that needs protection.

Kiky · Jun 16, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Gold sellers are a problem in pretty much every MMO. Are you saying no MMOs have log files? And, if so, doesn't that suggest that creating, storing, and searching those log files would be a bit more difficult than you suggest? If not, then why are gold sellers a problem in other MMOs?

In other MMOs around 4k+ accounts are banned after weekly inspections. In gw, 3700+ accounts were banned after 6 months of hard-core botting and in 5 years I didn't rly see any huge bot/goldtrader bans. As for they said "xxxx bots are banned every day" is a hoax. Ecto's price hasn't changed for a few years that's why we cannot take it that daily bans serious.

In the most MMOs there is a program called hack-shield or any other program against hacks/bots. These programs simply kick you if a bot/hack (injected dll) is detected so it makes impossible to use it. And if u actually have a program to bypass hack-shield or other hack protection THEN you are banned. Even pixelbots are detected.

It's 2010, I've never seen any games which allows you to freely inject anything without a kick by their anti-hack prog. GW is one, and they were so confused to ban 3700 accounts without distinction by the rule of "inject = ban" which they think was a "deep analysis".

Btw nothing can be done against file injection to a game BUT to have a program which kicks you after is solved in every single game. And this is what they should have done instead of banning everyone.

Shasgaliel · Jun 16, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiky

I didn't rly see any huge bot/goldtrader bans. As for they said "xxxx bots are banned every day" is a hoax. Ecto's price hasn't changed for a few years that's why we cannot take it that daily bans serious.

Ok so how do you see those bans in other games? Sorry but saying "I did not see it so it did not happen" is a bit lame. Regarding your argument on ecto prices mine is: if there were no daily bans the ecto prices would be 500g and not stable around 7k. Now prove I am wrong.

Kiky · Jun 16, 2010, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

Ok so how do you see those bans in other games? Sorry but saying "I did not see it so it did not happen" is a bit lame. Regarding your argument on ecto prices mine is: if there were no daily bans the ecto prices would be 500g and not stable around 7k. Now prove I am wrong.

In ecto price I was talking about ebay and other RMT sites. Not in game LOL.
In other games u can see it, u can browse in ban list where names are exposed, u can check that gold price is changing on RMT's sites after every ban depending on how many of their accs were caught. So after a ban wave less goldfarmers are in (for a few days).
In GW nothing happened, they "banned xx accs daily" but still RMT and all other bots were around.

Tullzinski · Jun 16, 2010, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiky

In the most MMOs there is a program called hack-shield or any other program against hacks/bots. These programs simply kick you if a bot/hack (injected dll) is detected so it makes impossible to use it. And if u actually have a program to bypass hack-shield or other hack protection THEN you are banned. Even pixelbots are detected.

It's 2010, I've never seen any games which allows you to freely inject anything without a kick by their anti-hack prog. GW is one, and they were so confused to ban 3700 accounts without distinction by the rule of "inject = ban" which they think was a "deep analysis".

Btw nothing can be done against file injection to a game BUT to have a program which kicks you after is solved in every single game. And this is what they should have done instead of banning everyone.

You seem to be such an expert on MMOs anti bot methods (through direct experience?) perhaps you should have paid for and implemented it for ANET.

Do you really think that it is cost effective for a game without a monthly fee that was released in April of 2005 to have 2010 anti-hack measures? You seem to be insinuating it is ANET's fault that people were banned since they did not update their game with the current 2010 anti-bot measues.

Move on.

/close +1,000,000,000,000

Da Bears · Jun 16, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiky

In other MMOs around 4k+ accounts are banned after weekly inspections. In gw, 3700+ accounts were banned after 6 months of hard-core botting and in 5 years I didn't rly see any huge bot/goldtrader bans. As for they said "xxxx bots are banned every day" is a hoax. Ecto's price hasn't changed for a few years that's why we cannot take it that daily bans serious.

In the most MMOs there is a program called hack-shield or any other program against hacks/bots. These programs simply kick you if a bot/hack (injected dll) is detected so it makes impossible to use it. And if u actually have a program to bypass hack-shield or other hack protection THEN you are banned. Even pixelbots are detected.

It's 2010, I've never seen any games which allows you to freely inject anything without a kick by their anti-hack prog. GW is one, and they were so confused to ban 3700 accounts without distinction by the rule of "inject = ban" which they think was a "deep analysis".

Btw nothing can be done against file injection to a game BUT to have a program which kicks you after is solved in every single game. And this is what they should have done instead of banning everyone.

I dont understand why ppl are against the bannings. Either the violators didnt care about/read the ToS or dont have common sense to know its wrong or by using any third party program could potentially get u banned. I think a lot of the botters were trying to call anets bluff and lost. Also this isnt wow, gws doesnt have 11 million players to sift thru weekly and ban. Also if u want an anti hack program that kicks for botting expect to pay a monthly fee bc ppl will try to bypass this via hacking and anet will have to spend a lot more money and time dealing with this problem just as blizzard does.

Kiky · Jun 17, 2010, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Every Free-MMOs has anti-hack too, not only the monthly fee ones...

Tullzinski · Jun 17, 2010, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiky

Every Free-MMOs has anti-hack too, not only the monthly fee ones...

Name one from 2005......

snaek · Jun 17, 2010, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Name one from 2005......

maple story, alongside gameguard, has relatively active gms that police the game.

diablo 2, although not an mmo, was released in 2000 and still got a patch this year which fixed certain cheats.

Tullzinski · Jun 17, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

maple story, alongside gameguard, has relatively active gms that police the game.

diablo 2, although not an mmo, was released in 2000 and still got a patch this year which fixed certain cheats.

Then Kiky should go play that instead of GW since the game has the security features he/she is looking for.

Diablo has been fighting this battle forever, on the flip side of that blizzard has replaced toilet paper with money at their offices.

I got banned from diablo way back when, learned the bot/3rd party program lesson back then. Ahhh Maphack

Gli · Jun 17, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiky

Every Free-MMOs has anti-hack too, not only the monthly fee ones...

And, as you well know, so does ANet.

And just like every other company's measures, they're not perfect.

But good enough against some hacks. As you well know.

Shadowmoon · Jun 17, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Personally, i don't get why people are acting that it is not hard to figure out what exploits are bannable and which are not. I can only think of two incidents which do not follow this conclusion.
You only get perma banned if the exploit is seeded with a third party program, otherwise anet views it as their own fault for not fixing it. The 3700 was dll injection, someone in the 117 used a hack to get to the Testing Area in DoA then ferried everyone else. Borat was banned for a tome in pre which used a 3rd party program to get there. And i find it funny when you posted your screen, you claimed it was because of a bug in the "Rites of Remembrance" quest.
The only situation outside 3rd party programs were duping (any sane person agrees this must have been done) and match manipulation, but only after Regina posted that it was a exploit on her journal and the people banned for it only got 3 day bans the day after the post as a warning.

Martin Alvito · Jun 17, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmoon

The only situation outside 3rd party programs were duping (any sane person agrees this must have been done) and match manipulation, but only after Regina posted that it was a exploit on her journal and the people banned for it only got 3 day bans the day after the post as a warning.

What about the 2006 mass perma-ban? Many of those were shown to have been picked up by the automated system as idling in the Guild Hall and wrongfully perma-banned for it.

I agree with the conclusion that post-2006 bans have been (comparatively) well-administered, but we have ample evidence that ANet makes mistakes.

Shadowmoon · Jun 17, 2010, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Was the 2006 mass ban before factions, cause unfortunately I was not playing at the time? I unfortunately don't know its detail of that event.

Martin Alvito · Jun 18, 2010, 01:04 AM // 01:04

No, it was shortly after Factions released. If I remember right, it hit right after Dragon Festival, which would put it at July 2006.

Akimb0 · Jun 23, 2010, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Bumping the topic.

So, the bots are back in JQ again. Out numbering the human players on the Luxon side once again. The [Pet] guild is back (all bots) and when I /report, I get no confirmation that "insert name here" has been reported for botting.

So are we just back to stage 1, where the botters can just get away with this?

Iuris · Jun 23, 2010, 01:40 PM // 13:40

What do you expect, an instant recognition and ban system? Give it time - Anet will ban them eventually.

Oh, and don't forget - they never get away with it - they need a new account.