Curse

Ka Tet · Jun 02, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Do you think I and others come to gwguru to see 5 generic threads on bots crying.
Nobody cares that you got banned, seriously if you want sympathy from other bots then take it up on the bot forums. I can't wait till this crap goes away or at least dies down to one thread.
BTW am I supposed to feel bad for the bot that I would see every day in the game or the person who spent a minute starting it for the day?

You cut that quote just a little short. I'll finish it for you

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

The people flaming the banned people need to keep saying things.
a. to feel better about themselves at the expense of others.

It would seem that you do. Arguments have 2 sides, and you and others have held your end up.
I am not banned, and I never botted.
I don't think it matters what you feel about them, just stop chasing them with torches.

Ninja Ninja · Jun 02, 2010, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

I don't come to Guru to see hundreds of pages of retarded ideas, but lo and behold, they exist anyway.

At least its in one place so its easy to avoid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

Guru is a forum for discussion. Sometimes people want to discuss things that other people don't want to discuss, but that's par for the course on the Internet.

I understand that but whats the reason for why this isn't one thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

It would seem that you do. Arguments have 2 sides, and you and others have held your end up.
I am not banned, and I never botted.
I don't think it matters what you feel about them, just stop chasing them with torches.

It has nothing to with feeling better about myself, its just moving on something perma banned people have trouble doing.

Ka Tet · Jun 02, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

It has nothing to with feeling better about myself, its just moving on something perma banned people have trouble doing.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

Kyosuki · Jun 02, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Think I'll uninstall KSMod just in case...screw High-Texture in Outpost?

Fahhhh · Jun 02, 2010, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

The people who were banned have a reason to keep saying things.
a. to attempt to make a point.
b. to attempt to make themselves feel a little better about a crappy situation.

The people flaming the banned people need to keep saying things.
a. to feel better about themselves at the expense of others.

I'm going to side with Team Banned. Here's why:
You can justify it anyway you like, but unless you're talking about people who bot PVP, What anyone does in this game has absolutely no effect on anyone else's ability to play the game.
The arguments lamenting the effects on a fictional economy- grow the F up.
Saying it detracts from the value of a video game title- again grow the F up.
Saying it hurts the integrity of the game- it's a videogame, grow the F up.
Singing cheater-cheater- do what you were told to do in kindergarten, don't worry about what other people do. It doesn't affect you. Worry about what you do. And BTW, grow the F up.

I farmed my Lux title almost exclusively in comp mishes during the height of the botting craze. Just about every match, there would be 3 wand bots running around the map in circles, all but guaranteeing fail. I gotta tell you, I still don't see a need to ban those accounts. Just perma-dishonor them, so they can't ruin the game play and call it a day.

This pretty much sums it up. There's not really much to discuss on the bans I honestly don't know how this thread got so long. Anet put its foot down and thats that. As for the bots that escaped the ban there always will be botters who can get around being detected. Smart bunch of cookies that they are

Ninja Ninja · Jun 02, 2010, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Thanks for proving my point for me.

You see it as people chasing bots with torches, I see it as people that have been permanently banned from the game forever, nothing is going to change that, so they have no connection to the game.
Take it as a personal attack against bots all you want but its just how people who have been permanently banned are dealt with.

Klimtog · Jun 02, 2010, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Saying PvE botters didn't affect anyone is pretty incorrect. Back during the birthday, I didn't know there was a huge Raptor-farming bot craze going on. I manually farmed 4 stacks of cupcakes, then found out there were people who botted and had accumulated 30+ stacks of cupcakes. Needless to say, those cupcakes I farmed are pretty damn worthless compared to what they could have been if there hadn't been raptor botters.

Not everyone has stacks of ectoplasm to work with, so things like this affect people in a negative manner, too.

Yuki Juggernaut · Jun 02, 2010, 05:23 AM // 05:23

LOLWHUT? Exploiters are evil?

I'm sorry, Gaile Gray, but you've got it all wrong.

The RMT sellers are the evil people, not the exploiters. There is a major difference.

Exploiters just want to make big bux in-game, and RMT sellers want to take your account and your real-life money.

windtalker · Jun 02, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuki Juggernaut

LOLWHUT? Exploiters are evil?

I'm sorry, Gaile Gray, but you've got it all wrong.

The RMT sellers are the evil people, not the exploiters. There is a major difference.

Exploiters just want to make big bux in-game, and RMT sellers want to take your account and your real-life money.

Inb4 someone disagrees with you...thank you for finally making the point that there is a severity of offenses against the game. You are exactly right in stating that PvE exploiters are much less of a problem for the game than the RMT traders.

Because ANet is weak/lazy/workingonGW2/doesn'tcare/idon'tknow, they figure, well we should just catch all the minor offenders and perma-ban them without doing anything about the serious offenders. That'll show em.

Yuki Juggernaut · Jun 02, 2010, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by windtalker

Inb4 someone disagrees with you...thank you for finally making the point that there is a severity of offenses against the game. You are exactly right in stating that PvE exploiters are much less of a problem for the game than the RMT traders.

Because ANet is weak/lazy/workingonGW2/doesn'tcare/idon'tknow, they figure, well we should just catch all the minor offenders and perma-ban them without doing anything about the serious offenders. That'll show em.

The exploiters' methods are kind of unorthodox, though... now that I take a second glance at my post

Perkunas · Jun 02, 2010, 06:34 AM // 06:34

How will ANet deal with the rest of the bots? Is that the question being asked in the OP? IF so, I will give my opinion of what has happened so far and what I think could happen next.

The community has been screaming about bots for awhile. The process ANet had been using, wasn't doing enough for the community to see what was happening behind the scenes.

They "hire" a team to identify the bots. To show the community that they were doing something, they selected a "data range" or logged data from date X to date Y. This was data that could be gone through rather quickly.

After reviewing the data/logs, they identified many bots that were easily identifiable. These are/were the 3700. The announcement was to show the community they are doing something, and should slow down the use of new bots by those that are 'tempted' to try them.

After the banning of the 3700, they probably are now digging further back in history, prior to date X, and reviewing the logs since date Y. Those bots missed by the ban this time around, will probably have less of a chance of being missed the next time around.

I have no idea how far back into the logs they would want to go, but they will probably continue to review ongoing logs, to keep the honest person honest. Anyone caught using a bot from this day forward, will not have any justifiable excuses.

lishi · Jun 02, 2010, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

cause you can't reliably detect most of the modifications.. except for .dll injection :P. I'd say its less of a double standard and more of a "we don't know if these other guys are botting, but we sure do know you're botting!"

There is no way GW can detect whether you are using a third party program that uses pixel detection.. no way. I suppose if they made the game more invasive and it checked up on your task manager they could, but even then there are multiple options out there to run bots.. I mean, bots have existed as long as grind-games have existed.

Well, I'm pretty sure that a bot behavioral can be somehow detected so the account can be flagged. Once its flagged a real guy can check if its a real bot or just a botlike player.

But to be fair, to those who are saying real RTM trader uses pixel detection etc, i don't think its completely true. Bot based on GWCA where much more effective then any Pixel detection ones. So if they have done their job well probably they have switched to GWCA based bots.

Just think about it, people where running 15+ bots on their midrange pc disabling graphic rendering, you clearly can't do that with a pixel detection one.

reetkever · Jun 02, 2010, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

I'm going to side with Team Banned. Here's why:
You can justify it anyway you like, but unless you're talking about people who bot PVP, What anyone does in this game has absolutely no effect on anyone else's ability to play the game.
The arguments lamenting the effects on a fictional economy- grow the F up.
Saying it detracts from the value of a video game title- again grow the F up.
Saying it hurts the integrity of the game- it's a videogame, grow the F up.
Singing cheater-cheater- do what you were told to do in kindergarten, don't worry about what other people do. It doesn't affect you. Worry about what you do. And BTW, grow the F up.

This thread has nothing to do with any of that. The point of this thread is that someone who was banned now wants to 'force' the creators of the game to explain what they're going to do in the future. Fact is, wether one's banned or not, one can't force A-Net to do anything.

Also, your idea of 'growing up' is you can't discuss an obvious problem in the game on a Forum of that very game, on which it is meant to discuss stuff like this? This isn't a thread where only banned bot users are allowed. This is a petition where anyone can reply.

FlexBuffchest45 · Jun 02, 2010, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warvic

What crisis? If you mean that the economy is ruined. Well, botting is/was not the main prob of that.

Shadow Form says hello
Ursan says hello

People who bot for real money are also an problem ofc. But an rupt bot is WAY worse then some dude that sells money. Because you can't buy skill in this game. You can only get visual stuff. Nobody cares about that. (eccept you). So yes, i'm against RMT botters, but I'm HAPPY they got the REAL cheaters, the pvp bots!

This dude said it all. at the end of the day, who cares about retards that sell GW gold for real money? I certainly don't, it doesn't make the years I spent on GW any less enjoyable. However, the lame ass faggat pvp bots ruined game enjoyment daily, and I'm glad something was finally done about them.

YunSooJin · Jun 02, 2010, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Well, I'm pretty sure that a bot behavioral can be somehow detected so the account can be flagged. Once its flagged a real guy can check if its a real bot or just a botlike player.

people seem to think that bot detection is some sort of magical happening, as if ANET has the perfect algorithms to detect bots.

anyone who's done a fair amount of coding can assure you that thinking of ways to reliably to detect a bot based solely on the behavior of the player is a losing proposition...

Yuki Juggernaut · Jun 02, 2010, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

people seem to think that bot detection is some sort of magical happening, as if ANET has the perfect algorithms to detect bots.

anyone who's done a fair amount of coding can assure you that thinking of ways to reliably to detect a bot based solely on the behavior of the player is a losing proposition...

This, but there are if you know what you're looking for and you check that player's chat logs.

Note: That said though, no-one has a perfect alogorithm to counter bots.

lishi · Jun 02, 2010, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

people seem to think that bot detection is some sort of magical happening, as if ANET has the perfect algorithms to detect bots.

anyone who's done a fair amount of coding can assure you that thinking of ways to reliably to detect a bot based solely on the behavior of the player is a losing proposition...

You can code the common give away that a player is a bot without too much problem

- pass a lot of time farming
- his path is made fixed or made by few fixed waypoint randomly chosen
- fixed sequence of action (some bots will try to do some random action in between, but those can be ignored)
- etc

Once the bot have checked a reasonable amount of "bots behavior" a real human being can check it out.

I'm not saying that is easy, or anet will even bother to implement them , but they better start to look into stuff like that if they want stop the next wave of bots coming.

If you go to check on the famous botter forum you know that the lesson they have learned is "Yea, probably we should not get caught".

Gill Halendt · Jun 02, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Once the bot have checked a reasonable amount of "bots behavior" a real human being can check it out

Too complex and not even close to be a warranty of successful detection. No automated system can reliably tell you're botting by just checking for "bots behaviour", and anyway, bots can be easily programmed to disguise such a behaviour and to randomize some actions.

Even if they could implement such a thing, it would be a HUGE waste of resources just to have someone spending his/her whole work-day to double-check paths and repetitive actions of every single player detected by the system.

lishi · Jun 02, 2010, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Too complex and not even close to be a warranty of successful detection. No automated system can reliably tell you're botting by just checking for "bots behaviour", and anyway, bots can be easily programmed to disguise such a behaviour and to randomize some actions.

So can program the detection routine to ignore those random action, again i'm not saying its easy.

Quote:

Even if they could implement such a thing, it would be a HUGE waste of resources just to have someone spending his/her whole work-day to double-check paths and repetitive actions of every single player detected by the system.

You don't need to check every suspect report, permabanning few people who make other think twice about botting. For RMT once you detect one bot you can analyze the trade logs to detect more.

Not doing that might we as well let bot bot. Detecting a bot using the game UI will be different as detecting a dll injection i bet.

Not that huge deal for GW now probably, but for gw2...

Um Yeah · Jun 02, 2010, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Considering Anet first said they were "combating bots/RMTs" back when there were actually more than 5 people maintaining and working on this game, I suspect they do even less work on it now. I mean, they basically got all the money out of this game that they're probably gonna get, so why bother caring anymore beyond basic server maintenance? Im sure some of you may say that if they dont put an actual effort to keep botting out of GW, then you wont buy GW2, but really, you will probably end up just doing it anyway, right? I really don't see any reason why they should put forth any more effort into stopping botters, assuming theyve put forth much of any effort in the past 3-4 years theyve been "working on it".

Also, with regards to the idea of designing some sort of automated system to detect "bot-like activity", I really don't see it being feasible due to the complexness involved especially considering the Reconnect feature was designed by an Anet staff member in their free time as a side project, again, back when there were more than 5 people working on GW. With as few people that are working on GW now, I imagine it would take them quite some time to design such a system. Then again, I can't imagine that the people still working on GW actually do much anything during their work day, so maybe they could do it.

In short, Anet likely will do nothing about RMTs, especially considering how long theyve been "a problem".

And for those who are enjoying the bans on the PvP bots, you should have played when there was actually competition and more than what? 500? guilds. A good mes/ranger>bot any day. A bot's a wasted spot compared to a good player. Of course, theres MAYBE one each of those left sooo...you might have a better point. Regardless, l2p.

There, /thread

You're Welcome.