Curse

JoeKnowMo · May 31, 2010, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarion Silverarrow

Microsoft,one of the most known software companies,has errors on ALL of their OS's (see Windows Vista)...why it has errors? humans made it. Same with Apple...hence all programs can f*ck up.

There is a big difference between a complex piece of software such as an OS and a simple piece of software like a .dll checker. Also, simple programs are easy to debug.

Maybe your friend is innocent. Maybe someone else installed something on his computer. Maybe he unwittingly installed it without realizing it. If he's innocent, he'll probably get his account back.

Lord Sojar · May 31, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarion Silverarrow

I don't care if Google,Microsoft,Apple,Sony,and Nintendo made a company together to make this detector. It can still go wrong,because humans made it.

1. If it was tested,I doubt (repeat doubt) that it was tested 3.7k times

2. I know they went wrong on something,because a friend I know IRL was banned,and I know he has no knowlage of this things. You won't find a more casual gamer than him,Jesus Christ he just recently found out about Fallout 3 and other games having console commands. He did not use any third party programs,or buy any money from GW. He hasn't broken any rule other than language (and I'm just puting in the language thing to say something)

Microsoft,one of the most known software companies,has errors on ALL of their OS's (see Windows Vista)...why it has errors? humans made it. Same with Apple...hence all programs can f*ck up.

I know it sounds cheesy,but it is the truth.

Your friend may have accidentally downloaded a program that used the methods that ANET/NCSoft were witch hunting for. This is a sad fact, but we are responsible for the things that go on our system, and that includes viruses, worms, malware, etc. There is some piece of the pie that is missing in your friend's story, because it would be literally impossible to produce a false positive on the variables they were looking for without some kind of program manipulating source code. If he was banned due to this reason, that is unfortunate, but you need to be in full control of your system at all times, and exceptions cannot be made in these cases; that simply opens the door for other, actual cheaters, to scream the same thing, and have their bans lifted. This isn't a jail sentence, it's a ban in a game. Your friend has been welcomed to restart a new account, but I'd highly recommend that he/she check their system first for any type of malevolent software.

An algorithm doesn't need to be tested the number of times you want it to give results... You test it against constant variables versus independent variables. It needs to be litmus tested in order to determine accuracy. You can run an algorithm several million times in order to check its accuracy and precision, both of which are important.

Running a search script or algorithm on a SQL database is drop dead easy, and cannot be compared to an OS. You are basically trying to compare a Star Trek Warp Drive to a 1991 Chevy Cavalier... which is a pretty bad way to look at this. An OS contains millions of lines of code (Vista had over 50 million) A SQL identification algorithm or search parameter of this nature would contain no more than 150-250 lines, depending on the number of variables and automation they put it in. I could program that without a flaw, and that says a lot, considering I'm terrible with SQL compared to people who really know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenX

rahja could u plz stop bsing;

tell me what if legal program 15 changed value A to B?
false positive?

who would check all 3700 accounts for false positives reviewing logs and such?

indeed they wouldn't they would just ban all, and w8 for people who think they got banned unjustly to ask for revision!

and this last point is what people are discontent about as customer support is failing to give a **** about them, and anet is simply using a bot to reply back to them.

furthermore there are bots who work through pixel detection (farming bots) or are simply macros (spam bots) which don't change any values and as you setup in ur hypothetical situation value A will be changed to value D and thus these bot will and are going below the radar.

Your first assumption is a bit skewed. It assumes that a false positive can be generated using a "legal" program. The very nature of these programs is against the ToS/EULA, so there really isn't such a thing as a false positive.

Mods that ANET has looked the other way on are those that are client side only. Client Side ONLY Modification != Packet manipulation

Your second point is invalidated, as it isn't support "not caring", it's simply using an automated response after they have run yet another check of your account with their litmus tests. If it continues to produce positives, they will send you the messages you see at the beginning of this thread. If their recheck yields negatives, they will take a different course in support. The reason you aren't seeing those responses is because.... for all intents and purposes, they don't exist.

To your furthered point, I actually agree. This method is highly accurate, but limited to the markers I pointed out. GUI driven bots or advanced macros are much harder (or impossible) to detect using an algorithm without going below the 99% accuracy barrier. That barrier is established because 1% can be a very large number in the case of mass bans. Those type of bots have to be manually hunted down, and those methods are fairly full proof, but they are very slow and time consuming for support. These bans were issued to the people that used bots that used packet manipulation. Sadly there are limitations to the power of CS, and this is it. The remaining non dll injection bots must be dealt with manually, and that leaves more room for human error, but also doesn't create these massive bans, and so those hundreds of bans that will be done manually will be go on more or less unseen.

Zarion Silverarrow · May 31, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46

No.Nothing. Nada.

I know I have no evidence,but take my word for it. Only he has access to his PC,and he did not download anything...He barely played GW. he did nothing.period.

If he get his account back,then cool. But this proves there is a margin of error,even if its only 1 account out of the 3.7k

oscarmk · May 31, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MArcSinus

I don't see why it would take months...

Let us assume half of the 3700 accounts have the same IP, which would mean we have 1850 people sending a query. Even this number is to big imo regarding some people having like 12 side-accounts and not everyone replys obviously.
Now let us assume it would cost a support member 10 minutes to look up your account information after your reply and send you the information why you got banned. It would take 18500 minutes, which are 925/3 hours, let's assume a employer works 9 hours a day it would take him or her about 34 days.. but obviously he/her isn't alone. With 10 people it would only cost them 3,4 days..

Of course I made all these numbers up but I hope you get the picture that if we gave them, let's say a week, to respond to everyone they should have plenty of time for a proper response.

It would take more than 10 minutes on average per player that is for sure. Lets not forget they do not only get tickets regarding this particular issue, but they also have tons of other tickets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

You still haven't explained how running a raptor bot would make you not want to play in a group with me.

He would not want to play the game at all, simply because any loot he obtains is losing value constantly as your bot finds the same stuff over and over again, and of course you are willing to sell this stuff cheaper and cheaper because:

a) It did not take any effort for you to find those items, so basically anything you get for them is for free.

b) You (the botter) have millions of those items.

c) More and more people are running the same bots, so there's even more items, and therefore they lose value.

oscarmk · May 31, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Stop right there, cowboy. Selling to the NPC merchant doesn't devalue anything.

Sure it does, it devalues gold itself, are you telling me it doesn't cause inflation?.

You mention you used part of your money to buy some of the titles, so let me guess party, sweet, drunk titles?, where do you think that money is going anyway?, to the economy of course.

Lord Sojar · May 31, 2010, 08:23 PM // 20:23

People can't understand an ingame economy anymore than they can understand real world economics. You can explain all day long, but it will do absolutely no good, but here we go.

You making gold without playing means you can make gold at a much higher rate than other players who have human limitations and time constraints can. That means you have more raw gold than the majority of those players that are actually playing, and not cheating. This in turns means you are willing to spend more on items, since you don't value the gold as much as someone who actually worked to earn it. This in turn drives up prices, as sellers see people willing to pay higher prices, and subsequently raise their prices. Enter the vicious cycle of GW economic inflation.

This isn't rocket science....

Lyphen · May 31, 2010, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Just came back from a 6 month hiatus to see my account banned. Don't think I've ever used a third party tool, other than the "hi-rez textures in towns" program that was on the wiki.

And I was so intrigued by the mesmer update. :\

Lord Sojar · May 31, 2010, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

Just came back from a 6 month hiatus to see my account banned. Don't think I've ever used a third party too, other than the "hi-rez textures in towns" program that was on the wiki.

That's client side, so again, I'm calling bullshit. That mod doesn't modify the packets being sent back to the server. So... nope, start thinking harder.

This ploy you guys have come up with in an attempt to feign mass innocence isn't fooling those of us who understand how this works. You are only fooling yourselves...

Ka Tet · May 31, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I'm waiting for the drunkard and sweet tooth bot bans.

Lyphen · May 31, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

That's client side, so again, I'm calling bullshit. That mod doesn't modify the packets being sent back to the server. So... nope, start thinking harder.

Just you wait, I'll be unbanned and getting an apology, I'm sure!

(Seriously though, I can't image a situation where I've hacked the game. I have 2 elite armor sets after 5 years, I barely PvP, and likely 30 platinum to my name.)

Lord Sojar · May 31, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

Just you wait, I'll be unbanned and getting an apology, I'm sure!

(Seriously though, I can't image a situation where I've hacked the game. I have 2 elite armor sets after 5 years, I barely PvP, and likely 30 platinum to my name.)

Until such a time that it can be proved there was some kind of fundamental flaw in the detection systems used (which there won't be), the Inquisition asserts your guilt. It can only be assumed there is a fundamental flaw in the methods used to detect these bots, or you are lying/forgetting. Going off the sheer number of people admitting they did bot after they were banned, I'd say it was pretty damn accurate.

My guild leader on my PvP account botted once, and only once, in RA to see how the bots worked. He was permanently banned, and deservedly so. I feel no different towards him than I do a random person on these forums who I have had no prior knowledge of. At least my guild leader isn't lying or publicly QQing, because he knows what he did, and he knew the potential consequences.

Quote:

I'm waiting for the drunkard and sweet tooth bot bans.

Most of those aren't bots (at least in the case of sweet tooth) but simple macros. Yes, they could ban for those, it's true, but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none compared to the RMT farm bots and exploiters getting banned first, in that order.

Trub · May 31, 2010, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

(Seriously though, I can't image a situation where I've hacked the game. I have 2 elite armor sets after 5 years, I barely PvP, and likely 30 platinum to my name.)

Even more reason to submit your ticket to support..they may have info you don't know about...due to:

A 'friend' you forgot about and gave your account info to while away on your hiatus....
A hacker that trashed your account.
Keyboard cat taking lessons from HA int1
---many possibilities.

Always best to wait for your incoming responses from support..no one here can help you..sorry.

Ka Tet · May 31, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Most of those aren't bots (at least in the case of sweet tooth) but simple macros. Yes, they could ban for those, it's true, but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none compared to the RMT farm bots and exploiters getting banned first, in that order.

They would undoubtedly deserve the ban though and have no room for QQ or cause to demand redress.

Lord Sojar · May 31, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

They would undoubtedly deserve the ban though and have no room for QQ or cause to demand redress.

I would demand redress, but it would be with Gaile and the support team, quoting them on past language that explicitly permits simple G11/G15 macros. However, in the end, it would be ANET's call, and if they were to uphold a ban on my account, I would accept it and move on, like an adult.

They never gave any indication that the type of bots that were used were in any form, approved. The ToS/EULA specifically puts sanctions against them. A forum isn't a place to redress this type of issue; a support ticket is the place for that.

Emunator · Jun 01, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Well like i normally try to be hounest i backtraced my steps and noticed i forgot a verry important step.

So here is my updated ticket.

Quote:

Hello staff, hoped you enjoyed the weekend.

Well i finally found some usefull information, i backtraced my own steps.
I might have been banned because of an injected dll.
I included the file as an attachement.
It's called Faker all it does is give me the abbility to show me some of the emotes connected to titles on my own screen.
In this way it's almost the same like texmod since it only shows me some stuff client side.

I never botted in game in the form of interupt/farm bots.
I never got involved in all the duping and other exploits.
I always played the game fair.

So please look into my logs again and you should be able to see i never cheated in any way.

I would really regret it if i was banned for this after playing for over 4 years since it never gave me any unfair advantage over other people.

cormac ap dunn · Jun 01, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

Well like i normally try to be hounest i backtraced my steps and noticed i forgot a verry important step.

So here is my updated ticket.

Ah, Gaile actually discussed this a bit on her talk page, and yeah, its a dll injection, it is bannable, and it isn't approved.

"Is injecting a .dll, not used for botting, a bannable offence?
My question ^, I believe I was banned because I injected a .dll into Guild Wars and this is the justification [not justification, but how anet 'caught' all] of the 3700 bots.
It was used for absolutely NO botting purposes, and I believe this is why I was grouped with the 'botters.' The .dll was used for something called "packet faker," which was JUST LIKE texmod, client side ONLY. With this, it was possible to see your character use any of the hero rank emotes, and any of the zaishen rank emotes, again, ONLY CLIENT SIDE. Nobody else saw them. It gave me no advantage to the game over other players at all, it only made my screen shot folder larger.. -- is for Rift, etc. 18:28, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Also, KSMod (forces high-def armor textures on everyone) seems to be in the same boat... -- is for Rift, etc. 20:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Similarly, I used a skill log script a few times when writing match reports. Client side, no effect on the game, but used an dll injection. Account banned. 130.89.172.242 21:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I too am on the same boat as Rift. I used 'PaketFaker' and got banned for it. It is just like TexMod! Wicca 06:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

You are at least the second person who's mentioned PaketFaker and said you felt its use was acceptable because "it's just like TexMod." I don't know that. The support team doesn't know that. And unless you're a programmer who can read and analyze source code, you probably don't know that either. TexMod (in its original, unaltered form) is allowed because it gives no gameplay advantage. I can speculate that the other program is not totally benign, and that something in it gives advantage to the user. I do not know that, though, I truly am just speculating. If the use of PaketFaker caused your account to be blocked, then that's just another reason why we make it clear we do not give a thumbs up to third-party programs. Only a few third-party programs have been shown to pose no negative risks to the user, and even those must remain in their original form to be risk free. No one knows how many times a benign program is altered to be bad. In the end verification of a program's integrity rests with the user. -- Gaile 05:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)"

hope that helps, that risky lil program had all the earmarks of a problem from what i saw. i mean it let you spam all the emotes in game? doesn't that sound like perhaps something that might not fly with support?

well, anyway good luck

GreenX · Jun 02, 2010, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarion Silverarrow

No.Nothing. Nada.

I know I have no evidence,but take my word for it. Only he has access to his PC,and he did not download anything...He barely played GW. he did nothing.period.

If he get his account back,then cool. But this proves there is a margin of error,even if its only 1 account out of the 3.7k

the margin of error is much greater than 1/3700, but looks like anet wont admit it so no hopes of him or any other innocent getting their accounts back!

also wana hear something scary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

If you purchase a brand new account, our Support Team will not take action on your account (i.e. ban it) so long as this new account remains free of any incidents requiring action from the Support Team. If you engage in activity that goes against the User Agreement and you are reported for it, this will attract the attention of the Support Team, at which point, they will take action if your account is found to have broken the User Agreement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the EULA

(h) Former Members. Members whose Accounts have been terminated by NC Interactive may not access the Service in any manner or for any reason, including through any other Account, without the express written permission of NC Interactive. Accounts accessed by Former Members are subject to immediate termination. NC Interactive reserves the right to use any means necessary, including those in section 4(i) to identify and remove Former Members.

(i) Related Accounts. If NC Interactive terminates an Account, NC Interactive may terminate any other Accounts that share the same member name, phone number, email address, postal address, Internet Protocol address, or credit card number with the terminated Account.

contradiction much? turns out people (one who i know, and odds are he is innocent but thats beside the point) listened to regina, went out spent money on full new gw accounts to continue playing this game they once loved despite the terrible support only to have their new accounts banned by the next day since their credit card numbers or some other piece information was black listed. pretty sure that is not even legal, if it prevented them from purchasing the game in the first place maybe, but banning the new account withing hours of purchase after they made their money defiantly cannot be.

yes bots banned, thus better place, i was one who was actively pushing for measures to be taken against bots, reporting them when ever I saw one. heck i dont even pve, and rarely play classes in pvp that could benefit from botting. yet i was falsely accused and banned along with a handful of botters. thus i can see why the people who didnt have the misfortune of getting caught in the crossfire would not want any of the banned people to get their accounts back thinking they all were part of that rather large group ruining the gaming experience of others. but believe me there are innocents who got falsely accused too, yet support is not even giving them a chance to clear the misunderstanding by simply replying to all botters and innocents alike with prewritten automated replys basically telling them to gtfo and that anet doesnt give a **** about them and their loss.

Kumu Honua · Jun 02, 2010, 12:29 PM // 12:29

I for one support our new banscythe wielding overlords.

cormac ap dunn · Jun 02, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

OK, so its been a week, I've seen the same people for that week complain, whine, issue threats, QQ, and generally bellyache. Out of sheer curiosity has anyone NOT done what Anet has accused you of and gotten a negative response yet? or been ignored? Or are all the guilty just clogging things up still, and wondering why Anet/support gives you canned responses that culminate in DON'T BOTHER? Ever wonder if the letter was directed as such because you were guilty? Though i haven't heard of one yet, Gaile has indicated there are other responses.

Quote:

All cases are being reviewed. Every single one. Not every account holder is getting that response. Those who have a legitimate appeal are being handled individually and would get a different response. However, those people are very, very few in number. Consider that more than 3,700 accounts were closed. Many of those people will appeal, although they know full well they are guilty. Many others will appeal because they don't feel they were guilty, but they were. The appeals of people who were caught dead-to-rights fill up the queues and delay responses to people who have other issues or who may have a legitimate reason for an appeal. It is not reasonable to expect that support agents will sit down and pen a personal response to each person. The response that you've seen contains all the pertinent information in a clear, concise, and informative form. Trying to write a different letter to hundreds of people is an unnecessary waste of time and it risks possibly leaving out some information, as well, or opening the door to the sorts of strange fan forum speculations we're familiar with, like "Why did that say 'definitely' and that other one say 'positively'? I suspect a conspiracy of some sort!"
So, if someone gets that response, then that response is appropriate to the situation. It is not a brush off. It does not indicate that the team is not reading the tickets. It does not mean that a single appeal has been ignored, or that the circumstances that lead to the block were not carefully reviewed. The detailed and informative response is sent after a review, after verification of the block, and after the decision that the particular response is the best way to give each person the most accurate and complete representation of the situation. It is only sent to those to whom it applies; it is only sent when it is appropriate...- Gaile 05:19, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the reason is, no one to date, that has posted on here has been innocent? Seen everything from "PacketFaker" to outright admittance to botting and enjoying it come out, but in the end all have had dirty little secrets. Has anyone gotten a response from support yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenX

contradiction much? turns out people (one who i know, and odds are he is innocent but thats beside the point) listened to regina, went out spent money on full new gw accounts to continue playing this game they once loved despite the terrible support only to have their new accounts banned by the next day since their credit card numbers or some other piece information was black listed. pretty sure that is not even legal, if it prevented them from purchasing the game in the first place maybe, but banning the new account withing hours of purchase after they made their money defiantly cannot be.

Actually, that response you quoted was in reply to someone who claimed a friend had the same issue... the response Gaile gave was this

Quote:

Hello Gaile, I have been informed that if your account has been banned, any further accounts that you purchase also risk termination. Is this true? 82.1.246.150 20:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

You have to email support and they give you permission to get another, iirc. -- Tha Reckoning 21:19, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

We do not automatically ban a new account that someone creates after he or she has been banned. If that account is involved in an infration, naturally it is subject to a suspension or to closure (termination). But if someone was banned (account terminated), if he purchases a new account and starts afresh, and if the record on the new account remains clean, we would very, very seldom take action on the new account.
I call this our "Go forth and sin no more" policy.

-- Gaile 03:50, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

further she wrote in response to someone claiming that a friend had the same situation you describe with your friend

Quote:

I have no idea what happened in those cases, but the people involved are welcome to write to discuss the matter with Support. I agree with you that in order to be safe, a complete uninstall and a completely fresh download of the entire game file is a great idea.
I can tell you what our policy is and I can tell you that we don't summarily block new accounts, and I know this to be true. Now, let's be clear: I'm taking about a brand new account, not a second-hand or a passed-along or a used-to-be-played-by-my-cousin account, nor one that was purchased through a reseller. There are a lot of unauthorized account sales every day. Standing in Kamy saying "WTB account" is not likely to get you one that's of any use

So someone could have bought a used account or someone could have been given or sold an access key that was already in use or that had been previously disabled due to fraud of one kind or another. In those cases, the accounts probably weren't closed, they were probably never activated.
IP blocks? No. And we don't try to entice someone to spend money and then laugh maniacally as they install the new game and zap them upon entry. We're nicer people than that. We are way more of the "Ok, we'll give you another chance" than the type of folks who say, I'm going to ban you, and your little dog, too!"

-- Gaile 04:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

hopefully that clears that up a bit

garethporlest18 · Jun 02, 2010, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenX

the margin of error is much greater than 1/3700, but looks like anet wont admit it so no hopes of him or any other innocent getting their accounts back!

also wana hear something scary?

contradiction much? turns out people (one who i know, and odds are he is innocent but thats beside the point) listened to regina, went out spent money on full new gw accounts to continue playing this game they once loved despite the terrible support only to have their new accounts banned by the next day since their credit card numbers or some other piece information was black listed. pretty sure that is not even legal, if it prevented them from purchasing the game in the first place maybe, but banning the new account withing hours of purchase after they made their money defiantly cannot be.

yes bots banned, thus better place, i was one who was actively pushing for measures to be taken against bots, reporting them when ever I saw one. heck i dont even pve, and rarely play classes in pvp that could benefit from botting. yet i was falsely accused and banned along with a handful of botters. thus i can see why the people who didnt have the misfortune of getting caught in the crossfire would not want any of the banned people to get their accounts back thinking they all were part of that rather large group ruining the gaming experience of others. but believe me there are innocents who got falsely accused too, yet support is not even giving them a chance to clear the misunderstanding by simply replying to all botters and innocents alike with prewritten automated replys basically telling them to gtfo and that anet doesnt give a **** about them and their loss.

Actually anet made that legal when you accepted their EULA. Basically, as soon as you agree to that, it means they can just cancel your account and take your money, because it states that they can do whatever they want in the EULA and don't even have to give you a reason. The only way you can defeat it, is to not support Anet by not buying their products and then spreading word of mouth.

Thankfully they are not stupid and don't do that to everyone and seeing as they all have us hook line and sinker, they don't have to worry about 3,700 accounts and some of their friends that won't be buying stuff from Anet anymore. Also since a lot of those people will probably go to GW 2, Anet is only gaining. So yeah, pretty much all you can do is screenshot Regina saying that and it will either A. get her in trouble (idk why you'd do that) or B. support will change something. I doubt it'll be B though.