Curse

Chthon · Jul 09, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Selfless was the best way to go until it was immediately nerfed, because monks got too overpowered, for some reason. Odd they nerfed that and nothing to damage the ER infuse/bonder... What's their game?

It was a one-skill solution. It made every monk into a super monk, even if they were a skill-less button masher and every single one of their other 7 skill choices was a bad choice. Much like with Ursan, overpowered + mindless = nerf.

That's why I prefer a slightly more subtle approach to the next monk buff:

1. Change Selfless Spirit from "skills that target another ally" to "skills that do not target yourself." This brings Aegis and Heal Party within its ambit.

2. Functionality change for Holy Haste: 5e, 1/4cast, 15recharge, "Spell. All of your other monk skills are recharged and you gain 0...5 energy for each skill recharged in this way." The goal here is a non-elite AP. The most important effect is to make Selfless Spirit maintainable -- if you have the sense to run the two skills together. As a bonus, it makes Aegis and SoL available more frequently (two worthwhile things ER can't do better). I'd expect people to run enough DF to hit the breakpoint for 3 energy and maybe have 3 long-recharge skills (Selfless, Aegis, SoL), resulting in a net gain of 4 energy every 15 sec.

3. Finally, we need a little bit of bar compression to make up for adding a second e-management skill. So, let's take a crappy DF skill and rework it. Watchful Healing and Spell Shield are two good candidates. Words of Comfort is also so bad it could be moved to DF and reworked. I suggest: Formerly-crappy-DF-skill, 5e, 1cast, 4recharge, "Spell. Remove 1 hex from target ally. If a hex is removed in this way, this skill takes an additional 4 seconds to recharge. If a hex is not removed in this way, 1 condition is removed instead. 50% chance of failure with Divine Favor of 4 or less."

Lishy · Jul 09, 2010, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Wait, what? I think you're over-analyzing Guild Wars' skills. Leave the worries to skill balancers.

How often do you see "LFG INFUSE ELE" anyways?

Airstu · Jul 09, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

As has been said before:

a) this is a niche build the requires a team to work.
b) make eles more effective in HM so they can actually do something

Quote:

People already don't like ER. It's near impossible to get into groups to do the daily quests because they all swear by Monks and Monks only

Pugs, lol.

Xiaquin · Jul 09, 2010, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I have to thank this thread for giving me the courage to try to run one of these as a hero build. I set Sousuke up with only a general idea of how it works. He did pretty good and never ran out of energy through Battle for LA. Don't nerf this, I think I like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airstu

Pugs, lol.

Yeah, not everyone is in a highly active guild, or even in one at all, contrary to general perception of game title.

Lanier · Jul 10, 2010, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I have to thank this thread for giving me the courage to try to run one of these as a hero build. I set Sousuke up with only a general idea of how it works. He did pretty good and never ran out of energy through Battle for LA. Don't nerf this, I think I like it.

I never leave town without my ER protting zhed anymore... but yea, it needs nerfing imo. Its just too good.

Risus · Jul 11, 2010, 10:31 PM // 22:31

QQ thread more pl0x?

HigherMinion · Jul 12, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Bad troll much? And that doesn't actually make sense... If people didn't say it so often I'd ask wtf? DILLIGAF.

KageNoShi · Jul 12, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

How often do you see "LFG INFUSE ELE" anyways?

Not very often actually, outside of ToA, never.

Malician · Jul 12, 2010, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Virtually every human ER I've ever seen outside of my guild is terrible. So what if it's invincible when you know how to use it? No-one does. Most users will just get nailed with enchant strips or interrupts.

I'd suggest nerfing PB instead; prot monk style is much more fun than just maintaining a bunch of PB while watching a movie.

Ferminator · Jul 12, 2010, 07:10 AM // 07:10

The thing is, the elementalist has no ezymode uhh.... I mean...... "viable" alternatives for hard mode other than Ether Renewal. When arenanet decide to buff elementalists and give them a viable alternative wouldn't that mean no one will use ER anyway? So really, the way to nerf ER is to not nerf it at all, buff everything else because everything else sucks.

mage767 · Jul 12, 2010, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

The thing is, the elementalist has no ezymode uhh.... I mean...... "viable" alternatives for hard mode other than Ether Renewal. When arenanet decide to buff elementalists and give them a viable alternative wouldn't that mean no one will use ER anyway? So really, the way to nerf ER is to not nerf it at all, buff everything else because everything else sucks.

I disagree. I believe that a true master elementalist is one who can adapt his/her elemental powers to meet the needs of a mission, HM or not. That is, learning enemy weaknesses, and switching skills on the go.

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

There is more than enough variety for ele. An ele does not necessarily need to be a destructive class. It should also function be a support class that enhances the enviromenment to to benefit the team. It must NEVER be a healing/protting class.

Sadly most people stick to fire, and use it in the wrong areas at the wrong times, and qq about damage being lower than melee. Learn to adapt or gtfo.

To end this, ER protting should be nerfed. It's a bad gimmick for bad players.

HigherMinion · Jul 12, 2010, 08:15 AM // 08:15

There is variety, perhaps. But as it's been discussed with mesmers, you want raw power and the defence you can must up with wards is not exactly rewarding enough to care about.

Malician · Jul 12, 2010, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I disagree. I believe that a true master elementalist is one who can adapt his/her elemental powers to meet the needs of a mission, HM or not. That is, learning enemy weaknesses, and switching skills on the go.

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

There is more than enough variety for ele. An ele does not necessarily need to be a destructive class. It should also function be a support class that enhances the enviromenment to to benefit the team. It must NEVER be a healing/protting class.

Sadly most people stick to fire, and use it in the wrong areas at the wrong times, and qq about damage being lower than melee. Learn to adapt or gtfo.

To end this, ER protting should be nerfed. It's a bad gimmick for bad players.

This is great - conceptually. It fails miserably because the elementalist is not sufficiently good at these things. We're not going to see powerhouse elementalist builds appear which ravage the enemy, and players pretending to be ele nukers really look like Cartman and Kyle playfighting.

Xiaquin · Jul 12, 2010, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Once again, good is relative. Yes, relative to something much more powerful, the damage isn't "good", but I see enough of them in my HM pugs, some even doing basic fire builds that aren't too different than what I did pre-Factions.

Not saying it doesn't need a buff, it needs a big overhaul, but, eles are still widely used and accepted.

Morphy · Jul 12, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

ER is vastly overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but that's entirely political decision.

And this thread will be full of:

1. "I want to keep using my overpowered build there's nothing wrong with it"
2. Noobs who don't see why ER is overpowered and how much

3. People who say "keep ER because ele is otherwise crap in HM" - but ER should be nerfed regardless. Mesmer were total and utter crap in PvE and as a result they didn't have super-overpowered build to compensate for that. Overpowered skills need to be nerfed - that's it. I do sympathize with this groupation.

You forgot group 4. People that don't give a crap and just [email protected] silly complaints.

Voodoo Rage · Jul 12, 2010, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

I think this should really be the key to the role of elemental damage in the game. All monsters should have specific vulnerabilities against certain types of elemental damage and certain resistance to others. If I throw water on a destroyer, it should damage it. If I throw fire at something made of ice, it should melt. I also think the elementalist should be the squishiest of all the classes, maybe having the same vulnerabilities (while wielding fire, you are susceptible to water... etc....). I'd like to the the profession one where you really take the time to set up your skill bar very specific to whatever area you are about to enter (and end up being the major damage dealer in the party).

MithranArkanere · Jul 12, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Examples:
1. Using water builds against destroyers, combined with EOTN skills (vs destroyers).
2. Using fire skills against imps/ice golems.
3. Using earth wards + WAH, water shields when fighting fire bosses / fire areas. (usually equipped on hero).
4. Using a varierty of earth builds to keep enemies kd'd continuously in HM.
5. AP meteor shower nuker is still a great build for vanquishing/missions.

Even when those things are true, people just discard them in favor of other things.
Because even if they work, they do not work better than those other things.

When I go Zaishen MAgnus' oozy ass, I bring a Ward Against Harm water build, and it does wonders.
When I go against destroyers, I bring an air build to spread blindness,cracked armor and weakness amonst them, and it works like a charm.
Not a single time I bring earth, because its skills are either too slow, or deal too much exhaustion, or doesn't work at all as they should. Wards offer little protection agaisnt HM monsters. Enchantmens can be used only in the caster, and the rest are PBAoE or need to be too close to the enemy.
an Earth build is NM-only. You can be good with it in HM, but you can be good in HM even with beast mastery, smiting or dervish builds without mysticism, and we all know they are utter crap compared with most of what other professions can do.

And don't get me sptarted with Assassin's promise... geez... if an elementalist has to use an elite skill from other profession to be effective, there's something very wrong. Other skills it's completely normal, but the elite should be of its professions. If it was in my hands, only a profession could equip its elites, or have huge downsides when equipping other profession's elites, like 50% of its effects or -6 to its attribute for that skill or something like that.

Test Me · Jul 12, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Ether Renewal is the Shadow Form of Elementalists: Overpowered.

Providing insane protection and heals, it's the must have spell for PvE.

Looking at previous nerfs, Ursan, Shadowform and 600 monks should Ether Renewal be nerfed?

You've totally lost this argument in the first 2 sentences.

I'm not seeing any 8 ER eles running around; speed clearing anything or requesting everyone and everything to be a primary Ele. There is a big difference between what ursan, sf, 600/smite, etc were (or still are) and what ER is.

A very much unjustified complaint imo. It's just an elite like any other that is actually getting some usage. Put otherwise it's nothing more or less OP than Discord.

PS: Actually it's worse than discord, because heroes can't (ab)use it.

HigherMinion · Jul 12, 2010, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

You've totally lost this argument in the first 2 sentences.

I'm not seeing any 8 ER eles running around; speed clearing anything or requesting everyone and everything to be a primary Ele. There is a big difference between what ursan, sf, 600/smite, etc were (or still are) and what ER is.

A very much unjustified complaint imo. It's just an elite like any other that is actually getting some usage. Put otherwise it's nothing more or less OP than Discord.

PS: Actually it's worse than discord, because heroes can't (ab)use it.

On top of that, I'd hardly say it's "must-have". Just because we use it all the time in our teams, doesn't mean everyone else does.

NerfHerder · Jul 13, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

I think the last WiK quest "Battle for Lions Arch" is a perfect example of how ER infuser inparticular was useful but not OP. Everyone wanted a Monk for that quest. However, after day 2 Monks became scarce. When I couldnt find a Monk, one of my guildies used the ER bonding route, it went ok but not as well as if we had a real Monk. Later, when it was my Eles's turn for the quest we got two Eles and couldnt find a Monk. So I went ER infuser(Hero build variant), like before we did well, but I would have prefered my Monk instead. And I never saw "GLF ER Infuser".

Even though, ER infuser is used in like 2 SC's. It doesnt take away from the Monks profession. If your really serious about balance in this game, you should be complaining about an Elementalists subpar damage, Dervishs being outclassed with his native weapon, uselessness of Dervish enchantments and Primary attribute, Paragons ONE build, Rangers being left behind the powercreep, and Shadow Form still being the type of skill Anet says they dont want in thier game even after they Nerfbuff'd it. Yes, I said Nerfbuff'd.