Curse

jazilla · Jul 07, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

/unsigned. you will kill a really fun option for eles in HM PvE. What's the point? IF anything shouldn't the assassin SC's be addressed BEFORE this? Also, shouldn't Derv and Para buffs come BEFORE this? ER builds are so niche really. I actually prefer using an AP caller over this. If you wanted to nerf ER, it should have come 2 years ago when I was running it for my Ele 600. ER for 600'ing was better than any other 600 out there bar none. OP kinda missed the boat on the ER nerf by a few years.

Shayne Hawke · Jul 07, 2010, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

If they make Ether Renewal last longer and shorten the recharge; but have it only effecting elementalist skills, I'd be fine with that.

What skills are they going to fuel with your proposed ER that are going to help them out that much in HM, especially in a damage-focused build?

Zodiac Meteor · Jul 07, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

/unsigned. you will kill a really fun option for eles in HM PvE. What's the point? IF anything shouldn't the assassin SC's be addressed BEFORE this? Also, shouldn't Derv and Para buffs come BEFORE this? ER builds are so niche really. I actually prefer using an AP caller over this. If you wanted to nerf ER, it should have come 2 years ago when I was running it for my Ele 600. ER for 600'ing was better than any other 600 out there bar none. OP kinda missed the boat on the ER nerf by a few years.

You didn't read. The last thing I want is ER nerfed, it's a overpowered skill that gives Ele's a place in hard mode. Just like all other overpowered skills they get hit with the nerf gun for multiple reasons.

ER might be on that target list, the thing is should it be on or off the nerf list. As a Guild Wars community the nerf is based whether we like it as it is or not. ArenaNet won't go nerfing skills that we don't care about, it's the ones that we do care and abuse that gets hit with the nerf gun.

Chthon · Jul 07, 2010, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Looking at previous nerfs, Ursan, Shadowform and 600 monks should Ether Renewal be nerfed?

If you look at those past nerfs, I'd draw two conclusions about what it takes to move a-net to do a major nerf like that this late in the game's lifecycle:

1. There has to be a major outcry. Every one of those nerfs came after months of complaining. By comparison, responses to ER healers are still more "huh?" than outrage.

2. Overpowered alone does not warrant a crushing nerf. It needs to be overpowered, PLUS a second factor. Take note:

Ursan was completely overpowered and utterly mindless. By comparison, ER takes a modicum of skill, at least at the level of maintaining bonds under heavy fire in difficult zones. (If you don't believe me, ask Malican what the fail rate is for PUG ERs trying to do UW.) I like things that encourage and reward skill. In that respect, ER is a great thing.

SF and 600 were completely overpowered and made the impossible possible -- UW in 10 minutes, almost any dungeon with 1 player + 1 hero. (You might also say that SF was really, really overpowered even when played at a mindless level.) By comparison, ER doesn't do much to help you exceed the boundaries of what a good balanced team could do with a more traditional backline; it just helps you reach those boundaries with more ease and reliability.

On top of that, we have the issue of whither eles if ER gets nerfed. We've got a class with one solid HM build (maybe two if you count AP+EBSoH+DoTAoE spam). Unless we see Intensity or Elemental Lord buffed to give big, maintainable, percentile (not integer) armor penetration in the very same update, the whole class would be pretty much ready for the dumpster at that point.

NerfHerder · Jul 07, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

What skills are they going to fuel with your proposed ER that are going to help them out that much in HM, especially in a damage-focused build?

As Eles are now, they need some buffing, even the Elite skills they have dont work well in HM. However, they do have quite a few high energy low recharge skills that could benefit from ER only activating from Ele skills. Lightning Hammer and Stoning come to mind. Regardless, Ele skills would need some buffs for it to be effective.

Kosar The Cruel · Jul 07, 2010, 04:10 AM // 04:10

I do like that it gives Eles something else to do besides spam AoE fire spells in PvE.

But, on the other hand, I was never a fan of SpeedClears and EMO ERs are the reason they're kinda still around right? I dont follow SC builds all to much so correct me if Im wrong.

Lanier · Jul 07, 2010, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

As Eles are now, they need some buffing, even the Elite skills they have dont work well in HM. However, they do have quite a few high energy low recharge skills that could benefit from ER only activating from Ele skills. Lightning Hammer and Stoning come to mind. Regardless, Ele skills would need some buffs for it to be effective.

I dont know... it seems to me as though elemental attunement would still be the better choice for skills like this. The problem is that there are several elementalist energy management elites. In my opinion, ether renewal (in addition to ether prodigy) need functionality changes.

WhiteAsIce · Jul 07, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53

People already don't like ER. It's near impossible to get into groups to do the daily quests because they all swear by Monks and Monks only.

Chthon · Jul 07, 2010, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kosar The Cruel

But, on the other hand, I was never a fan of SpeedClears and EMO ERs are the reason they're kinda still around right? I dont follow SC builds all to much so correct me if Im wrong.

No, SF is the reason speed clears are still around. UW is the only speed clear that uses an ER ele, and he's only there to deal with Dhuum. Nerfing SF, for real this time, is the only way speed clears can ever be killed and made to stay dead.

The Drunkard · Jul 07, 2010, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Meh, I'm split on ER:
-Infuse spam I don't mind, because it has some pretty glaring flaws that mobs can capitalize on. As soon as ER is down, the build becomes useless.
- Maintaining 16 bonds and tanking in the UW is something I have a problem with. If Anet would give burning speed a 3 second recharge, the bonding would stop.

For now, keep it as it is.

HigherMinion · Jul 07, 2010, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Meh, I'm split on ER:
-Infuse spam I don't mind, because it has some pretty glaring flaws that mobs can capitalize on. As soon as ER is down, the build becomes useless.
- Maintaining 16 bonds and tanking in the UW is something I have a problem with. If Anet would give burning speed a 3 second recharge, the bonding would stop.

For now, keep it as it is.

On second thoughts, I agree with the Drunkard. Nerf Burning Speed, not ER! That'll solve it

Mesmers Are Bad · Jul 07, 2010, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

On second thoughts, I agree with the Drunkard. Nerf Burning Speed, not ER! That'll solve it

Better nip stone daggers in the bud too.

I think ER, when used by a halfway decent player, is way more resilient than one would be led to believe after reading this thread, to the point of it being broken. As many have said though, removing it takes eles out of the hard mode picture in a rough fashion. To me, the crux of the matter is whether eles CAN be balanced in hard mode as they are currently setup. At what point is (mostly) non-conditional damage more useful than conditional damage where the conditions are easily met? do we really want to nerf necromancers and mesmers to feed eles? and what about the physicals? is the answer to make eles clones of the other two "nuking" classes by adding in more armor ignoring conditional damage of similar power level?
I'm not sure about any of those but i do know it'd be less of a hassle to just leave it be.

lol wall of text...tl;dr: I think it deserves to be nerf'd but I don't want to pull the trigger.

Gabriel of Ravn · Jul 07, 2010, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I say let the eles keep ER as is as long as sins get to keep their SF.

Ranger Jaap · Jul 07, 2010, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

On second thoughts, I agree with the Drunkard. Nerf Burning Speed, not ER! That'll solve it

in todays "speed clears" Not one ER uses burning speed.

The Josip · Jul 07, 2010, 12:47 PM // 12:47

ER is vastly overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but that's entirely political decision.

And this thread will be full of:

1. "I want to keep using my overpowered build there's nothing wrong with it"
2. Noobs who don't see why ER is overpowered and how much

3. People who say "keep ER because ele is otherwise crap in HM" - but ER should be nerfed regardless. Mesmer were total and utter crap in PvE and as a result they didn't have super-overpowered build to compensate for that. Overpowered skills need to be nerfed - that's it. I do sympathize with this groupation.

HigherMinion · Jul 07, 2010, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

ER is vastly overpowered and needs to be nerfed, but that's entirely political decision.

3. People who say "keep ER because ele is otherwise crap in HM" - but ER should be nerfed regardless. Mesmer were total and utter crap in PvE and as a result they didn't have super-overpowered build to compensate for that. Overpowered skills need to be nerfed - that's it. I do sympathize with this groupation.

Need I remind you Anet realised the error of their ways and decided it was time to make mesmers overpowered also? It's only overpowered if the player knows how to use it properly, and likes mindless spam-support builds. I don't think alot of people do, to be honest.

You have to see who knocks down, interrupts, strips enchants; actively re-bonding as you go. One spike-heal, and forget about healing wayward melee who walk out of your range. No hex removal, no condition removal, no space for a resurrection skill. It's as much of a substitute for a monk as a dervish or ritualist, or necro.

Pleikki · Jul 07, 2010, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Meeh ive been QQing about ER since it got buffed. Should be nerfed for sure, way overpowered,

Should be changed to work only for ele skills..

Riot Narita · Jul 07, 2010, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Not in favour of it being nerfed, since I hardly see parties using it to /roll-face-on-keyboard through the whole of PvE. I also don't see "GLF ER ele to go" spammed in public chat.

It also seems to me there's a bazillion other skills/mechanics in-game that are better candidates for nerfing than ER. And none of them bothers me so much that I'm going to whine and beg for nerfs.

I'm also sceptical about most people's motives when they cry for nerfs. Only a tiny minority seems to actually make intelligent and well-reasoned arguments for a nerf. But the rest I suspect either a) have been quietly abusing something, and want to stop the masses using the same method or a better one (because it will "devalue" their pixels)... Or they are simply precious about their professions, and hate to see another profession do "their" job as well, or better.

If ER does get nerfed, I think it should become non-elite. Because any nerf that's actually effective... will probably remove it from the game altogether, if it's left as an Elite skill.

Xiaquin · Jul 07, 2010, 04:09 PM // 16:09

From all I've read, ER can make an overpowered healer/bonder, but that's it. I still see healers in heavy demand and I don't see ER infusers "booting" monks out of the spotlight. It might be too powerful but it's not hurting anyone. Looking at all the skills individually, the abused skill looks like Infuse Health, not ER.

Going back to the OP: IMO, ER is not even in the same league as SF, Ursan or the current rage, Glaive. I do have a rit and a DwG build but I refuse to steamroll DoA with it. I've never even attempted DoA before but I won't let my first time be with that cheap skill.

vamp08 · Jul 07, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Anyone think we will be getting a skill update tomarrow?

...or next month?