Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Don't compare ranged attackers to melee attackers...

notice how I am comparing them to rangers, and how you ignore that fact.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Most of these are not that excellent in everyday use, as Spirits are often weak, and their effects have short duration. They might be good but surely not that much better than Paragon party defenses.

Having Shelter, Union, and Displacement up 100% is excellent defense... and with the ritualist updates this is easier to accomplish. Is this better or worse than Imbagon? That's harder to say, they are both good.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You seem to forget that spirit spamming is only viable when using... guess what? a PvE-Only skill (Summon Spirits). Restoration is really nothing to write home about and Restoration Rits don't see that much play anyway.

Not at all... now that the cast time and recharge time of spirits has been reduced, you don't need Summon Spirits at all.
Restoration sees quite a bit of use. (ie. N/Rt amongst other uses)

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So, you base the considerations on the effectiveness of a class on their success and following in the game alone.

I didn't see anyone clamoring for Assassing before the Perma builds, I don't see anyone clamoring for Mesmers even after the recent buff... I do see clamoring for Ritualists (Spirit Spammers only) and Paragons (Imbagons) much more often. So, let's safely assume that Assassins suck and are just good as Permasins, Mesmers still suck and Ritualists and Paragons are in demand.

/sarcasm

Not sure why you are wasting your time with this nonsense, don't twist my words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Paragons weren't meant to be "support only", they wouldn't be wielding a Spear otherwise. There's no such a thing as a "support only" class in GW, maybe just the Monk profession. Paragons as you yourself said are jack-of-all-trades, their ability to fill multiple roles must be compensated by some lack of focus: they excell at neither damage nor defense. Or better yet, they're excellent as Imbagons for defense, as much as Ritualists are excellent as damage dealers thanks to Spirit Spam, and little else.

According to you, the jack-of-all trades cannot be good at both damage and defense. Why then do you not see a problem with the ritualist and necromancer and monk being good at both?

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So, give them better support skills and strip them of their damage capabilities, make most Paragon defensive skills strippable/interruptable/removable like the competition. Or leave them as they are and tweak a few skills so that Motivation is more effective. Turning Paragons into the ultimate warmachine doesn't make sense.

1) there's no damage capability to strip from them, they are already outclassed by all other physical attackers in PvE.
2) creating new counters for shouts/anthems/chants/etc. probably should have been done years ago but they are part of the game and I think Anet is unlikely to do a major redesign now when most of their effort is focused on gw2.
3) tweaking motivation is part of the plan.
4) if you think these modifications are turning paragons into the "ultimate warmachine"... lol. I hardly think that trying to come closer to the ranger's damage or the necromancer's physical damage buffs would be overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Ritualist have ONE viable build for damage (Spirit Spam), ONE gimmick rit-based team build (Glaiveway) that just relies on one Rit skill, average healing capability, a couple of buffs for physicals.

There are a lot more builds than that, not to mention farming applications.
In any case having several areas of expertise or several viable builds is better than having only one. And that's what Paragon is stuck with at present.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

And both classes need to focus on either one or the other role. You either play your Ritualist as a Spirit Spammer or as a Resto Rit or play hybrid builds and do with less damage or less support. You either play your Necromancer as a damage dealer and give up some support, play it as a Minion Master or play it as a dedicated supporter (Orders, N/Rt).

Take a standard SoS spirit spammer, add Splinter Weapon, and you have good damage and good physical damage buffing in the same bar. Are you saying that you've never thought of that? Never seen a smite monk with RoJ and Strength of Honor on the same bar? Never seen a minion bomber with Strength of Honor tacked on? Your assertion is easily proven false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

As a Paragon you wield a spear and do damage with it and build up adrenaline to fuel your shouts. You both do damage and support, but can't expect to excell in both roles, expecially not when your defenses are pretty much impossible to remove once applied.

The damage is insignificant compared to other damage dealers; you keep claiming this as an advantage for the paragon but it just isn't true. Furthermore any warrior or warrior secondary can bring Save Yourselves and get the same defense that the Imbagon is using, so your argument does not carry a lot of weight.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 15, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Jeez. Why must this thread always bobble from decent to incredibly TL;DR all the time?

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

But there aren't, and you can't just expect to:

- Introduce new skills
- Heavily rework some skills to introduce new mechanics

just to make the Paragon competitive... At the very least, Paragons as supporters have a HUGE advantage for this already.

anyone can use Save Yourselves, and some (Dragon Slash, Dagger Spam) can keep it up 100% like the paragon.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

If you base your whole role on providing unremovable buffs to the party, yes, if those buffs are too significant, which is exactly what you're suggesting.

The paragon's entire skillset is composed of shouts, anthems, and echoes, and it has been that way from the beginning. That is not something that I suggested. If you think it is a problem, how would you suggest fixing it?

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Rangers don't have any support capabilities, so they compensate with multi-target attacks and more damage, together with damage-mitigation with interruption, which is far from being as effective as party-wide buffs.

Why? Rangers can't support their team as much as Paragons, so I don't see a reason to give Paragons equivalent damage to the Ranger unless the Ranger is given equivalent party-defenses and support capabilities to compensate.

Then, you'd basically end up with two redundant classes.

No. Rangers and Paragons have different functions within a group, and that's fine; however they are both ranged damage dealers so they should have similar characteristics in that regard.
In their other attributes they have major differences... Beast Mastery gives more damage, Wilderness Survival has environmental effects, traps, more conditions, and some healing. Do these need some work? I think so, but that doesn't mean that paragons and rangers should be clones of each other.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Monks would love unremovable buffs and more damage options.

Monks can have unremovable buffs anytime they want... it's called Spellbreaker. And their damage options are quite good with Ray of Judgment, Smite Condition, Smite Hex, and Strength of Honor. Not bad for a 'healing' profession.

It sounds like the main problem you have with paragons is the shout/chant mechanic... but Anet built them into the game years ago and I don't think they are likely to be reworked now. What we *could* do is suggest skill changes to help counteract them. I've already suggested two effects that would help with this, the only question is which skills and professions to attach them to. Mesmer, Necromancer, and Ritualist are natural choices for that.

effect #1: reduction of shout duration on affected targets. this could be an AoE hex or a spirit (rit or ranger). Perhaps add this to Soothing or Tranquility?
effect #2: preventing shouts from affecting a target. this could be a hex, perhaps an AoE hex. making this a spirit would be way too strong... imagine a spirit that prevented all spellcasting within its range.

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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

One word and one number: 25 energy. You also need to cast it everytime the Spirit expires or it's killed, while Mending Refrain renews itself pretty easily.

Spirits are also easily targeted and destroyed, so there you go.

With the ritualist update spirits can be summoned very quickly, very cheaply, and very often. Have you seen the new Soul Twisting?

Again, my suggestion for mending refrain was just undoing the previous nerf, so the change from the present form would be minor. If you have issues with the general function of the skill that is between you and Anet.

Lanier · Jul 15, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Yes, they are good at many things, but other classes can perform those things better, sometimes even far better than the ritu. A pure restro ritu, a pure spirit spammer or a pure channeling ritu is nearly always a wasted team slot. Their strenght, like paragons, comes from their ability to do multiple things good at the same time.

I know this is offtopic... but just bear with me

Although ritualists do have that unique ability to do many things good at the same time, that does not mean they make a wasted team slot as a pure resto rit, a pure spirit spammer, or a pure channeler. Channelers (direct lightning damage attackers) used to be subpar to air eles due to air eles having armor penetration and cracked armor. However, with the update last february, ritualists have easy access to both of these, and now i consider them equal in strength to an air ele. Like I mentioned above, resto rits may seem subpar to a healing monk due to their lack of skills (rits have 1 attribute while monks have 3). However, resto rits make up for a lack of variety with powerful skills among those available to them. Rits don't have enough protection in the resto line to replace a prot monk or a hybrid monk but a resto rit could easily replace a healing monk and do just as well. As for spirit spammers... well im not even going to bother addressing them. Spirit rits are very powerful and i dont see how you can say they are waste of a slot in a group when nearly pugs and hero teams alike often utilise spirit spammers.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I know this is offtopic... but just bear with me

Although ritualists do have that unique ability to do many things good at the same time, that does not mean they make a wasted team slot as a pure resto rit, a pure spirit spammer, or a pure channeler. Channelers (direct lightning damage attackers) used to be subpar to air eles due to air eles having armor penetration and cracked armor. However, with the update last february, ritualists have easy access to both of these, and now i consider them equal in strength to an air ele. Like I mentioned above, resto rits may seem subpar to a healing monk due to their lack of skills (rits have 1 attribute while monks have 3). However, resto rits make up for a lack of variety with powerful skills among those available to them. Rits don't have enough protection in the resto line to replace a prot monk or a hybrid monk but a resto rit could easily replace a healing monk and do just as well. As for spirit spammers... well im not even going to bother addressing them. Spirit rits are very powerful and i dont see how you can say they are waste of a slot in a group when nearly pugs and hero teams alike often utilise spirit spammers.

just a clarification... ritualist do have two attribute lines for monk-like skills, it's just that they are split differently. Restoration has straight healing and condition removal while Communing has things that would be in the Protection line on a monk. Shelter, Union, Displacement, Soothing and Binding Chains for example. Unlike the monk, the ritualist also has damage or lifestealing in both of these attribute lines.

and i have to agree that anyone claiming that a ritualist is a waste of a slot is very far from reality...

Lanier · Jul 15, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

just a clarification... ritualist do have two attribute lines for monk-like skills, it's just that they are split differently. Restoration has straight healing and condition removal while Communing has things that would be in the Protection line on a monk. Shelter, Union, Displacement, Soothing and Binding Chains for example. Unlike the monk, the ritualist also has damage or lifestealing in both of these attribute lines.

and i have to agree that anyone claiming that a ritualist is a waste of a slot is very far from reality...

Well i guess you could put it that way. A defensive spirit rit could easily fill the position of a prot monk and be just as effective after all. Idk about binding chains though...i think you meant dulled weapon?

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 15, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

replies in bold.
Beyond that, I noticed if paras don't have AoE, at least being able to kill something would be a nice buff. I toyed with some para bars and I couldn't find any bar where I felt I was hiting enough to warrant my place. Most mobs wouldjust be blown by the next hits right after me. If someone can give me a combo that can make sure a foe is taken down (with party support, that means just a little disruption is enough to garranty the kill), that point is pretty much moot. Even if the combo is doable once per 10 sec, that wouldalready give paras the punch they need to be decent as damage.

Yes, exactly. In my opinion giving the paragon a multi-attack skill like Volley and a multi-hit skill like Sun And Moon Slash would go a long way toward closing the gap with rangers.

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Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

They could emphasis the need for a synchronised team. Giving great effects if you can use them. But good teams exists and they would use it to the full potential.
Or make the specialised skills more versatile. I know I am not the first one to say this, but why not just make those skills like "never surender" and lyric of zeal another effect if the condition isn't met.

Most of the skill changes I have suggested (including never surrender) involve making the skills less conditional. In some cases this will require weakening the skill's effect.

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Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Then there's the pvp-balanced-cooldowns, 20 sec cd for a chant that trigers once in a 10 sec window just doesn't cut it in GW PvE. It's more of a PvE problem if you ask me, but we aren't the ones who designed the areas.

The recharge on the motivation skills is generally way too long, the paragon's energy management depends on spamming shouts and chants and anthems. I would rather see shorter duration shorter recharge skills with weaker effects than super strong effects with long recharge. the ritualist has lots of powerful long-recharge spirits, but the paragon skills are meant to be spammed.

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Originally Posted by Lanier

Well i guess you could put it that way. A defensive spirit rit could easily fill the position of a prot monk and be just as effective after all. Idk about binding chains though...i think you meant dulled weapon?

that's another skill with a kind of damage-reducing effect, but no... i was thinking of Binding Chains, Pacifism, and Amity. All of those prevent foes from attacking you. Binding Chains used to work that way but it got changed around recently.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I agree, that is the most similar skill in the game to copy, but "Don't Trip" is useless because its duration is much too short. I don't carry that skill even in areas where I know there are mass knockdowns because it is not enough to prevent the knockdowns to any significant degree. Ward of Stability owns it completely.

And your version of "Brace Yourself!" owns Ward of Stablity for the same degree: ~7 times bigger area, faster cast time, no aftercast delay, better duration/recharge time ratio.

If the only problem we have is numbers, that's fine, those can be changed. We can alway increase the recharge time, reduce the duration or whatever. However note that the suggestion for Brace Yourself also has a conditional, it doesn't work at all on allies that are moving.

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

No, it's spot-on, since you are ignoring once again that Paragons would be able to do 2-3 things from that list simultaneously.

oh, you mean like channeling/restoration ritualists, or blood/curses necromancers, or smite/prot monks?

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Ranged professions were never meant to deal good damage. And btw, bow rangers are comparable weak damage dealers too. A dedicated bow ranger deals at best about ~80 single target DPS, Barrage Rangers are weak unless you tailor the entire team build around them, and even in that case a team build that is tailored around other classes (i.e. Searing Flames eles) is in general better.

Yes, bow rangers have less damage potential than melee professions, and that is why I don't think that having the paragon achieve equality with the ranger is anything for people to get upset about. :-)

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Originally Posted by Desert Rose

That is exactly what your suggestions lacks at the moment; the paragon would excel at multiple roles at the same time.
To achive that you need to add "All your weapon mastery attributes are reduced to 0 for the next 10 seconds" for all of your changed shouts, shants and echos or so.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. A paragon focused on strong support (either offense or defense) is going to have an entire bar dedicated to it. The Imbagon is a good example. He deals weak to moderate damage by auto-attacking with his spear and that's about all he can do. This is not big scary damage, and it is hardly what I would call "excelling" at being a damage dealer. But that's okay because the primary focus of the imbagon is not damage, it is defense.
A paragon that was focused on physical attacks would have an entire bar devoted to that as well, and if he happens to devote any skill slots to party buffs those skills will take time to activate... and that means less damage from throwing spears. more party support means less damage; this problem is self correcting.

Gill Halendt · Jul 15, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

So, wait, I've just discovered that Rits are perfectly viable as supporters because of Summon Spirits, and more even since their primary still sucks big time, so that Restoration is played mostly by Necromancers.

How's that any different from Paragons being perfectly viable as supporters with SYS! and TNTF?

Whatever... The requested ability to do too many excellent things simultaneously is what kills the suggestions here. No other class can do that. Not even Ritualists, Monks and Necromancers, surely not to the extent you're suggesting. Maybe just the Ritualist (SoS + Restoration), but at the cost of rather compromised effectiveness of both damage and healing capabilities.

Paragons would also retain two advantages over these classes:

- Unremovability of buffs. How's that hard to comprehend? Paragon buffs are comparatively weaker because of the almost absolute lack of counters to them. Please, were you serious about Spellbreaker for monks? Do you really think the elite slot wasted on a crucial character to make its buffs partially unstrippable on just ONE party members is even remotely comparable to party-wide shouts? Since Chants and Shouts are uninterruptible by design, implementing new counters would imply significant redesigning of the game to make such skills interrumptible/strippable, which would simply not happen.

- Physical, ranged damage. For how measly it can be right now by itself, it would still benefit from most buffs (autoattacking while under the effect of Splinter Weapon? MoP?), which is something Caster classes DON'T have. Sure, you're missing Strenght of Honor, but most other buffs still work.

Lanier · Jul 15, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So, wait, I've just discovered that Rits are perfectly viable as supporters because of Summon Spirits, and more even since their primary still sucks big time, so that Restoration is played mostly by Necromancers.

Spawning power is very good. You were complaining earlier about how spirits were so fragile but with spawning power, spirits really arn't all that fragile. Weapon spells lasting a lot longer is also a very good thing. Finally, there are a bunch of good skills in spawning power for all types of rits. Like I said in my earlier post, the reason why people use restoration on their necro heroes is because heroes (especially healer heroes) suck at managing energy. A necro/rt or an ER hero will always be better at healing/protting than a monk/rit because the first two examples have godmode energy management. On a human, rit restorers will always be better than necro restoreres because maintaining energy as a human restoration rit with gole, energetic was lee sa, or selfless spirit is pretty easy.

Tenebrae · Jul 15, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

this is because you can't do math. please search through other threads on gwg, there are plenty of discussions on this.

What the hell are you talking about ? Rangers being better than paragons in ALL cases ? are you on crack ?. Seriously you are out of your mind , no matter how many replies you write , your suggestions are a joke. You are not suggesting 1 skill change to make it better , you are suggesting A LOT of skills that dont need a change to be bloody overpowered and thats the undeniable truth.

You failed in almost all comparisons you made to suggest such changes and if you are waiting for someone from Anet to tell you "hahaha ... you are insane" ... you can sit and wait because i dont think its gonna happen. Not because its not true .... its just because is not worth , thats out of discussion.

Good luck in your pointless and useless crusade because hell , you are going to need a miracle. For anything else +1 to Halendt on #233.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 16, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So, wait, I've just discovered that Rits are perfectly viable as supporters because of Summon Spirits, and more even since their primary still sucks big time, so that Restoration is played mostly by Necromancers.

How's that any different from Paragons being perfectly viable as supporters with SYS! and TNTF?

Lanier already disproved everything you said about ritualist so I'm not getting into that again. Moreover I am not understanding what your point is... we are talking about changes to the paragon skills, not changes to PvE skills.
If you have problems with SY and TNTF that is a separate issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Whatever... The requested ability to do too many excellent things simultaneously is what kills the suggestions here. No other class can do that. Not even Ritualists, Monks and Necromancers, surely not to the extent you're suggesting. Maybe just the Ritualist (SoS + Restoration), but at the cost of rather compromised effectiveness of both damage and healing capabilities.

Here we go again... making claims without evidence. Well I will show you evidence of how things are now. You overestimate the paragon's capabilities by a great deal, and all of these other professions can perform multiple roles at the same time and do them well. That is why they see a lot of use in the game and paragons do not.

Imbagon: excellent party defense, weak single target damage, some offensive buffing (typically EBSoH and GFTE)
Spirit Spammer: excellent damage (SoS, painful bond, etc.), excellent offensive buffing (splinter weapon), good defense (spirits distract the enemy)
RoJ monk: excellent damage (RoJ and other smiting), condition and hex removal, healing, and excellent offensive buffing (Strength of Honor)
Minion Bomber: excellent damage (death nova, minions, putrid bile), good defense (minions distract the enemy), excellent offensive buffing (orders, barbs, mark of pain, etc. etc)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Paragons would also retain two advantages over these classes:

- Unremovability of buffs. How's that hard to comprehend? Paragon buffs are comparatively weaker because of the almost absolute lack of counters to them. Please, were you serious about Spellbreaker for monks? Do you really think the elite slot wasted on a crucial character to make its buffs partially unstrippable on just ONE party members is even remotely comparable to party-wide shouts? Since Chants and Shouts are uninterruptible by design, implementing new counters would imply significant redesigning of the game to make such skills interrumptible/strippable, which would simply not happen.

So your problem with paragons is basically related to how shouts and chants work. We cannot do anything about that and it's beyond the scope of the changes I was suggesting.

The only thing that seems feasible to do would be to give other professions easier ways to counter shouts and chants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Physical, ranged damage. For how measly it can be right now by itself, it would still benefit from most buffs (autoattacking while under the effect of Splinter Weapon? MoP?), which is something Caster classes DON'T have. Sure, you're missing Strenght of Honor, but most other buffs still work.

I've already explained this many times. Physical attackers deal damage in two ways, by channeling buffs through their weapon and attacking multiple times to multiply the damage from any buffs they may have. Base weapon damage is insignificant compared to the buffs.

So while paragon has similar base damage to other physical attackers, he will always do less than melee (because Strength of Honor doesn't work) and he will always do less than a ranger (because the ranger has preparations which add damage), and the paragon will do less damage than either melee or the ranger because he has no way to deliver multiple hits with one attack. This means that no matter what buffs you have for your team, the others get more benefit from them because they can deliver multiple damage packets with one skill. This is what allows Whirlwind Attack, Triple Chop, S&M Slash, scythes, dual attacks, barrage, volley, triple shot, dual shot, etc. to deliver more damage... it's not just the extra weapon damage, having multiple hits delivers extra damage from buffs as well. Paragon cannot compete with these because he's got no multiattack at all, not even weak skills.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

What the hell are you talking about ? Rangers being better than paragons in ALL cases ? are you on crack ?. Seriously you are out of your mind , no matter how many replies you write , your suggestions are a joke. You are not suggesting 1 skill change to make it better , you are suggesting A LOT of skills that dont need a change to be bloody overpowered and thats the undeniable truth.

i've shown you (in great detail) why the paragon is inferior to other physical damage dealers and also inferior to other support characters such as ritualist and necromancer. I've shown you evidence and explained my reasoning, but all you have countered with is your opinion.

re: "rangers are better than paragons in all cases", I was referring specifically to damage potential, and here is the evidence. I won't bother with extensive math because the difference in damage is obvious.

paragon best case: cruel spear, spear of fury, blazing spear, etc. good single target damage and deep wound.

ranger best case: sundering shot, penetrating shot, triple shot, dual shot, glass arrows, favorable wind.

ranger will always win in single target damage because he has Glass Arrows and Favorable Wind adding up to 26 damage to every arrow on top of whatever additional buffs he may have from teammates. He will also win because he delivers additional damage packets from multiple hits (triple shot, dual shot). paragon does not have inherent damage buffs nor can he deliver multiple hits.

ranger will always win against multiple targets because he has Barrage, Volley, and Incendiary Arrows which can deliver multiple hits at once, thus multiplying the effect of whatever buffs he has. In addition this can deliver all hits from Splinter Weapon at the same time which results in massive spike damage to a group. paragon cannot deliver multiple hits so he is not even in the game vs. multiple targets.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Good luck in your pointless and useless crusade because hell , you are going to need a miracle. For anything else +1 to Halendt on #233.

I don't want this thread to turn into a pissing contest, but Gill was already lolpwned by Lanier in #220. But you are right on one count, I am hoping for a miracle because paragons have gotten the shaft from the day they were created.

Cuilan · Jul 16, 2010, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Khomet Si Netjer, there's edit and multi-quote buttons.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 16, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53

This "undeniable truth!!!!1!!1!" garbage is starting to irk me. There's OBVIOUSLY a split opinion on what should be done with paragons. You repeatedly talking about how right you are doesn't make you any more right.

I personally see a need for Paragons to get at least some for form attention at some point. I think if they get overpowered Anet is capable of nerfing them to something reasonable. I also don't see how giving paragons a boost can hurt the game. Sure some foes might become more dangerous. I don't really see that as a big deal.

Commander Kanen · Jul 16, 2010, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Im not shure if its this thred or another one, but i mentioned a couple of idea's that arnt overpowerd but makes para more usefull.

i will have to dig out the page and post it.

Alot of the skills i compared to are monk spells. simmilar effect and recharge with about the same energy cost. (i also took leadership energy gain into considertion)

Para is my main and has been from the release of NF. and yes they do get nerfd alot and they can be a pain as you are restricted on builds. (I mean SY is the best skill for para pve and thats a war skill)

Altho you can put out alot of good heals with serpents quickness or Assassins Promis on your bar.

The biggest problem i came to while trying out heal builds for para is the lack of direct healing. And direct prot for that matter. Also Ally healing /protting on some missions is hard with paragon's

For an example:
Skills that party heal like Song of Restoration Look nice but infact are wasted. Slow recharge and doesnt Directly affect the party member(s) thats taking the hate, (they may be unable to use a skill/spell to get the benefit of the heal while the rest of the team doesnt need healing but get the hp)

Here is a link to some ideas we were all throwing around a while back.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...tml?t=10424144

Gill Halendt · Jul 16, 2010, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

So your problem with paragons is basically related to how shouts and chants work. We cannot do anything about that and it's beyond the scope of the changes I was suggesting.

No, it's not MY problem. It's THE problem.

You fail to see why most Paragon skill look subpar when compared to other classes. Well, this is the reason why their buffs are weaker. Since, as you say, we can't expect this mechanic to change, you should stop making direct comparisons between classes. Other classes have stronger buffs and indirect defenses that have multiple counters (you know, that enchantment and hex removal are really frequent, do you?), the Paragon has weaker buffs that compensate this weakness with advantages such as unremovability, uninterruptability and easy party-wide diffusion. You can expect tweaks to make Paragon skills more viable and I'm all for it, but you shouldn't expect Paragon skills to become directly comparable to other classes' skills, because that would simply be unbalanced for the reason stated above.

I agree Paragons need help and I'm glad they'll be seeing attention. I just don't think everything that's being suggested here is perfectly reasonable. Some proposals need some revision, which is exactly what me, Desert Rose and Tenebrae have been saying since #201. I think Paragons should be made viable again, not simply overpowered.

Commander Kanen · Jul 16, 2010, 06:56 AM // 06:56

I see what your getting at but there are anti shout skills (Well of Silence Vocal Minority Ulcerous Lungs) energy denail Soothing images and stuff that stops you gaining benefit from adrenaline, VoR and SS affect shouts plus any anthem can be interupted and most are random to whom they affect. not to mention lack of ALLY support.

Tenebrae · Jul 16, 2010, 07:07 AM // 07:07

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

This "undeniable truth!!!!1!!1!" garbage is starting to irk me. There's OBVIOUSLY a split opinion on what should be done with paragons. You repeatedly talking about how right you are doesn't make you any more right.

I ( and some others too ) already stated WHY those suggestions fail . They are based on a flawed logic , like saying 2+2=7. Repeating it in every post is not worth , check them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I personally see a need for Paragons to get at least some for form attention at some point. I think if they get overpowered Anet is capable of nerfing them to something reasonable. I also don't see how giving paragons a boost can hurt the game. Sure some foes might become more dangerous. I don't really see that as a big deal.

Who disagrees with that ? not me dude , not me. Motivation NEEDS a boost in ways of casting ti ... wait , im repeating myself again and you dont want that right ?.
I ( and many ppl ) disagree with those changes in that wiki page of the OP. Those are not changes , those are not boosts , those are bloody overpowered skills that are about 80% of times BETTER than any other skill of any other class that does something similar ....... no , that is not the way.
You simply CANT take any skill you want and go like :
- Mmmm this DPS skill , i want it to be the same like warriors X skill
- Aham , this blocking chant , i want it to be better than aegis and any monk stuff related to blocking
- This healing skill .... i want it to be better than any Rit spirit that does that.
And so on . If you do so , you would have better skills at doing X, Y and Z task that almost any other class and that pal , its by definition unbalanced.

Quoting Halendt once again.....
I agree Paragons need help and I'm glad they'll be seeing attention. I just don't think everything that's being suggested here is perfectly reasonable. Some proposals need some revision, which is exactly what me, Desert Rose and Tenebrae have been saying since #201. I think Paragons should be made viable again, not simply overpowered.

Gill Halendt · Jul 16, 2010, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Kanen

I see what your getting at but there are anti shout skills (Well of Silence Vocal Minority Ulcerous Lungs) energy denail Soothing images and stuff that stops you gaining benefit from adrenaline, VoR and SS affect shouts plus any anthem can be interupted and most are random to whom they affect. not to mention lack of ALLY support.

We've already discussed this: sure, there are some counters, but they're nowhere near as common as enchantment and hex removal.

Most of these counters are hexes themselves and can be easily removed from the Paragon, while, say, a stripped enchantment is gone unless you reapply it. Also, those are preventive counters. Once you're out of that Well, or are cleaned of that Hex, you get your buffs up and nothing can remove them.

SS and VoR affect the Paragon as well, sure thing, but then again, they affect pretty much anyone and can be removed.

Dame Laureline · Jul 16, 2010, 07:38 AM // 07:38

I fail to untersdand in what are the shouts/chants of paragons troublesome ?
As they are, they give a little bonus to all party for their next attack or spell. As half the party have no attack and the second hald no spells, it usually means three or four people get a little boost (one critical hit, inflict burning for two seconds, remove one hex or one condition). Most of them have either high energy and long cooldown or high adrenaline. That's far to be so useful. As a matter of fact the really useful shouts are go for the eyes (spammable), they're not to fear (PVE giving prot half the time) and save your ground (prot the second half of time). No, I won't speak about Save Yourselves, as this shout is not a paragon shout, and as many people already said, tie it to strength, and maybe give it +24 armor only with 0 strength.

There is really no need to nerf paragon shouts.

Frankly I feel paragons good to defend party, but what the matter if you could kill all the mobs in ten, or fifteen seconds ? That's like being very good at something useless the way PvE is.

I think, the way PvE is, paragons need more heavy damage skills. They really don't need anything else. Oh, yeah, they also probably need to have their casting ... well singing times reduced, as two seconds for a not-so good effect are two wasted seconds.

Gill Halendt · Jul 16, 2010, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

Most of them have either high energy and long cooldown or high adrenaline. That's far to be so useful.

That's why making those skills more usable/cheaper/interesting to use would be a great change for Paragons. Nothing like that is being suggested here tough: Paragons are being compared to other classes all the time, underlining their weak points while always failing to mention their unique strong points.

Paragons must be given some peculiarity to be viable, they should not become a highly-armored, shouting clone of some other support profession. Making their buffs as good as Monk or Ritualist defensive methods, or even better than those, simply makes no sense and would be overpowered for the reasons stated above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

There is really no need to nerf paragon shouts.

Who ever thought about nerfing them? Have you read anything of this thread before replying?

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

I think, the way PvE is, paragons need more heavy damage skills. They really don't need anything else. Oh, yeah, they also probably need to have their casting ... well singing times reduced, as two seconds for a not-so good effect are two wasted seconds.

Yup, I would support that: give Paragons some focus. Either boost their Damage capabilities, or make their defensive role more significant and worthwhile, so that they're at least good at something.