Curse

belshazaarswrath · Jun 22, 2010, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

Activation times on shouts? LOLWUT?

From wiki (and frankly, common knowledge of the game): "Shout
Skill type. Shouts have no activation time and are therefore instantaneous"

What game are you playing?

Probably means chants.

Lanier · Jun 22, 2010, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Of course as everyone keeps stating they are a support class...but would it be so bad if they could be a little more like an offensive class too?

... but they are already good enough offensively. I would say that besides imbagon, they are more powerful offensively than support-wise, and they do have quite a few good support skills despite having many not so good support skills as well. They simply don't need buffs to spear mastery at all. Spear of Lightning, Spear of Redemption, Blazing Spear, Spear of Fury, Cruel Spear, ect. all have a very high damage output for a ranged weapon. Having a permanent + 25% IAS is very nice for their offensive output. The paragon has access to many good conditions as well like deep wound, burning, and daze, and none of these conditions have tough... conditions... to meet in order to apply them.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 22, 2010, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

... but they are already good enough offensively. I would say that besides imbagon, they are more powerful offensively than support-wise, and they do have quite a few good support skills despite having many not so good support skills as well. They simply don't need buffs to spear mastery at all. Spear of Lightning, Spear of Redemption, Blazing Spear, Spear of Fury, Cruel Spear, ect. all have a very high damage output for a ranged weapon. Having a permanent + 25% IAS is very nice for their offensive output. The paragon has access to many good conditions as well like deep wound, burning, and daze, and none of these conditions have tough... conditions... to meet in order to apply them.

I guess your standards of "good enough offensively" and mine are just too different from each other.

In comparison with the other physical classes I just don't see how they can be considered a competitor. ALL of the other classes deal more damage. Most classes are in fact blowing paragons tits off when it comes to damage.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 22, 2010, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Of course as everyone keeps stating they are a support class...but would it be so bad if they could be a little more like an offensive class too?

Yes. They could easily make changes that would completely dumb down the paragon if done wrong, just like they damaged dervishes so bad.

Never have I felt underpowered when playing a Paragon offensively.

You are missing the point that paragons SHOULDN'T excel at damage dealing. they should be ok/average at it, but definitely not excel. That's not the point of a paragon. The more you change it from that, the more you create just another boring attack spammer physical class (read: dervish)

Chocobo1 · Jun 22, 2010, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Yes. They could easily make changes that would completely dumb down the paragon if done wrong, just like they damaged dervishes so bad.

Never have I felt underpowered when playing a Paragon offensively.

You are missing the point that paragons SHOULDN'T excel at damage dealing. they should be ok/average at it, but definitely not excel. That's not the point of a paragon. The more you change it from that, the more you create just another boring attack spammer physical class (read: dervish)

They dont excel at anything if we take out Imbagon. Bad damage, mediocre party defense that bore the brunt of PvP nerfs years ago, next to no ability to boost the party's damage output to any significant level. They can't solo farm like every other profession because they are centered around party support, which also ties in with the problem that Leadership is god awful and just prevents them from doing anything other than spamming shouts.

When Paragons get fixed, I have a feeling that SY! will be nerfed. When this happens, I hope to god you know what your doing because that one skill is the only thing keeping Paragons in the game right now.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 22, 2010, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Yes. They could easily make changes that would completely dumb down the paragon if done wrong, just like they damaged dervishes so bad.

Never have I felt underpowered when playing a Paragon offensively.

You are missing the point that paragons SHOULDN'T excel at damage dealing. they should be ok/average at it, but definitely not excel. That's not the point of a paragon. The more you change it from that, the more you create just another boring attack spammer physical class (read: dervish)

Giving paragons more damage dealing abilities makes them dumbed down? How does that work?

Why shouldn't they? And they aren't ok/average damage. They are doing damage that is significantly outshined by everyone. And if your running an offensive build is it not better to spam effective things than to wait for ineffective ones?

StormX · Jun 22, 2010, 08:15 AM // 08:15

some things that occured to me while playtesting a bunch of para skills:

does anyone actually use aggressive refrain? ...really? a 25e skill for a profession with 2 pips of energy regen?

also whats with the 3 second cast time for mighty throw and unblockable throw... the enemy would be miles away by the time your javelin takes flight...lol

Riot Narita · Jun 22, 2010, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Leadership is god awful and just prevents them from doing anything other than spamming shouts.

They can hardly even do THAT effectively, in 4-in-a-party areas. Or even 6-in-a-party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

does anyone actually use aggressive refrain? ...really? a 25e skill for a profession with 2 pips of energy regen?

No way.

Why would I spend 2secs and 25e on a 25% IAS, which gives me cracked armour, and which I then have to maintain with shouts...

...when I have Pumpkin Pies? One pie = 10 minutes of non-removable 25% IAS, AND it reduces skill activation times 15%. I farm a year's-worth of pies every November, just so I don't ever have to see Aggressive Refrain on my Paragon's bar.

Lanier · Jun 22, 2010, 01:42 PM // 13:42

I guess this explains a lot... Really, you should give a profession some extensive playing time before making comments on how to balance them. The credit of you two's opinions regarding paragons just went completely down the drain.

Quote:

does anyone actually use aggressive refrain? ...really? a 25e skill for a profession with 2 pips of energy regen?

Aggressive Refrain is widely considered the best non-elite IAS in the game. It is also often considered one of the paragon's best skills and is put as a staple on nearly every paragon bar, even those that do not focus on offensive power. The reason for this is because it can be maintained indefinitely, and rather easily at that. Just precast it at the beginning of a given area and maintain it with Anthem of Flame, Anthem of Weariness, or Theres nothing to fear (there really isn't any situation in which Tntf shouldn't be on a paragon's bar). You never again have to pay the 25 energy cost or 2 second casting time... really you should try out a skill/profession first before making comments on it.

Quote:

No way.

Why would I spend 2secs and 25e on a 25% IAS, which gives me cracked armour, and which I then have to maintain with shouts...

I guess this shows how much you actually play your paragon. AR hasn't inflicted cracked armor since February's update. Plus, why should the 2 seconds/25 energy matter? Your energy should be recharged or close to by the time you get to the first group of enemies.

Quote:

Leadership is god awful

Leadership's energy management is so good its broken by many of the experienced paragon players and is considered second/third only to soul reaping/critical strikes.

NerfHerder · Jun 22, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

does anyone actually use aggressive refrain? ...really? a 25e skill for a profession with 2 pips of energy regen?

I dont AR anymore, if im going anywhere that requires an Imbagon, im most likely using cons. Otherwise I use Soldier's Fury. SY! is still pretty much maintable. And it adds the ability to do a little spike damage on a single target. I personally dont mind the -20 armor, I never notice it. The fact that you are ranged and still have 86 armor + whatever damage mitigation your carrying makes up for it. Honeslty, there isnt anything wrong with AR its easily maintainably once you get started, I just prefer not to use it.

When it comes to spear mastery, I think its fine where it is. Spear mastery is good for spreading conditions, and thats enough for me. Any buffs would lead to it being exploited by another profession. Besides, a Paragon's source of damage should be through shouts, chants, and echos. However, they are currently very weak at doing so.

Edit: TNTF maintains AR if you use a chant first

Chocobo1 · Jun 22, 2010, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Leadership's energy management is so good its broken by many of the experienced paragon players and is considered second/third only to soul reaping/critical strikes.

It's not about the E management, it's about how restrictive it is. Leadersihp requires you to spam shouts, you have to make sure your bar can do that or else you wont be doing anything with that 2 energy regen. Soul Reaping and Critical Strikes don't require you to base your skill bar around it, merely they complement whatever set up you have working for you, be it healing, curses or daggers, scythes or spears. It gives you options, something the Paragon needs badly.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 22, 2010, 02:28 PM // 14:28

My biggest beef with leadership is that we get punished on solo missions and 4 man areas.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 22, 2010, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

some things that occured to me while playtesting a bunch of para skills:

does anyone actually use aggressive refrain? ...really? a 25e skill for a profession with 2 pips of energy regen?

also whats with the 3 second cast time for mighty throw and unblockable throw... the enemy would be miles away by the time your javelin takes flight...lol

I think all of these skills were balanced with PvP in mind. 25e for aggressive refrain is over the top... in PvP it's meant to punish you if you ever let it drop, while in PvE it is just annoying since you never let it drop. If the energy cost is meaningless in PvE why have it so high? In PvP, it is still over the top. 25e to activate a mediocre IAS skill? really?

3s attack skill activation is not only the slowest attack skill in the game, it also encourages rspike style play, as both of those are high damage and/or unblockable. paragons have been nerfed out of competitive play anyway so I am less concerned about the PvP aspect... though I do hope that anet will make paragons viable again.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 22, 2010, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Yes. They could easily make changes that would completely dumb down the paragon if done wrong, just like they damaged dervishes so bad.

Never have I felt underpowered when playing a Paragon offensively.

so it's pretty clear that you haven't played warrior, assassin, dervish or ranger... any of these deliver a lot more damage than paragon can. the paragon skills are pretty good single-target damage but that is not enough to compete with the AoE damage from the other professions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

You are missing the point that paragons SHOULDN'T excel at damage dealing. they should be ok/average at it, but definitely not excel. That's not the point of a paragon. The more you change it from that, the more you create just another boring attack spammer physical class (read: dervish)

More paragon hate without any justification for it. Why should paragons be inferior to all other damage dealers? Even if you have convinced yourself that paragon is a "support" profession (whatever that means) why should they be inferior to the ranger, another ranged damage "support" profession. Splinter barrage has always been pretty good, if not the absolute best.
There is far too much melee bias IMO.

Aside from the above, your argument falls flat when you consider that the "support" professions (ie. mesmer, necromancer, ritualist) are the best damage dealers in hardmode aside from uber-buffed physicals. If support professions are meant to be gimped and prevented from dealing any significant damage then how do you explain the mesmer and ritualist updates?

Riot Narita · Jun 22, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I guess this shows how much you actually play your paragon. AR hasn't inflicted cracked armor since February's update. Plus, why should the 2 seconds/25 energy matter? Your energy should be recharged or close to by the time you get to the first group of enemies.

No, it shows how oh-so-clever-and-superior you THINK you are, by pointing out that it gives you -20 armour, instead of "cracked armor". Wow, big difference there.

Oh and trying to make out that I haven't played my Paragon, doesn't make you look clever either, or add weight to your arguments - it makes you look like a blithering idiot. Because the fact is, I've played her extensively through all 3 campaigns and EotN, and I still use her to repeat all the WiK quests/bounties.

Since you are so VERY clever, how about you answer my original question, instead of parroting what everyone already knows about how we can maintain Aggressive Refrain:

Why would I take Aggressive Refrain, when I have Pumpkin Pies?

Pumpkin Pies give the same IAS, have no cast time, require no energy, do not give me -20 armour, last for 10 minutes unconditionally, do not take up a skill slot, works under Vocal Minority and standing in a Well of Silence, and reduces skill activation times. They even give me sweet points.

NerfHerder · Jun 22, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

Why would I take Aggressive Refrain, when I have Pumpkin Pies?

What happens when you run out of pumpkin pies? More to the point, a good build should not require consumables. All IAS skills have some sort of drawback, besides Critical Agility, it just so happens the paragons seems a little more severe,in the form of AR.

And the -20 armor is better than cracked armor IMO, because I use H/H alot. That way they can focus on healing me instead of taking off a condition, that barely effects me. And it doesnt trigger spells like Fragility.

Riot Narita · Jun 22, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

What happens when you run out of pumpkin pies?

I don't run out of pumpkin pies. When they're dropping, I farm enought to last a year. Sure, a good build doesn't need consumables... but a good build is even better with an extra skill slot.

If did run out, then sure - I'd choose an alternative IAS. That's the only time I'd consider AR.

Lanier · Jun 22, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

so it's pretty clear that you haven't played warrior, assassin, dervish or ranger... any of these deliver a lot more damage than paragon can. the paragon skills are pretty good single-target damage but that is not enough to compete with the AoE damage from the other professions.

Err, I would have to disagree with you on this one. There were studies awhile back that concluded that spears had the highest DPS of any weapon not taking into consideration attack skills. When those were taken into consideration, the assassin came out on top. However, the paragon's attack skills generally add about the same bonus damage as the warrior's or dervish's attack skills. The ranger's base dps and dps with attack skills just falls way behind...

What I'm trying to say is that from a scientific DPS standpoint, paragons really are pretty well balanced with warriors and dervishes. Assassins do more damage but that is to be expected from a class that is intended to be more offensive than the paragon class. But in terms of DPS, the paragon is well balanced.

Now taking into account AoE damage makes things more difficult. What you have to consider is how well enemies are going to be balled up in a given area. If you are tanking and spanking in an organized team build, then AoE is clearly superior to single target damage. However, in general PvE, when im just running around VQing with H/H, I really have not found AoE to be all that worth it. Strait up DPS will get you through PvE swiftly, and the paragon is not lacking in terms of DPS.

Also, everyone has to remember that often the effects of a warrior's dps is exaggerated in physway builds. A lot of the damage comes from splinter and MoP, not just HB.

So what I think is that IF the paragon's offensive capabilities were poor (like the ranger's is now), then yes, it would need buffing. However, I really do not see the paragon's offensive capabilities as being poor... at all.

Quote:

I think all of these skills were balanced with PvP in mind. 25e for aggressive refrain is over the top... in PvP it's meant to punish you if you ever let it drop, while in PvE it is just annoying since you never let it drop.

This, I have to agree with. AR is very annoying to upkeep unless you let Morgahn or hayda do it for you. I would making it no longer maintainable and instead changing it to a 5 energy costing, 20 second recharging echo that lasts for its duration and then goes away. This would actually be a nerf to it since you would have to spend 5 energy at the beginning of every battle casting it, but it would make the skill a whole lot less annoying to use.

Quote:

Since you are so VERY clever, how about you answer my original question, instead of parroting what everyone already knows about how we can maintain Aggressive Refrain:

Why would I take Aggressive Refrain, when I have Pumpkin Pies?

Thats an obvious question. You could also ask the question why bring extra prots when you could bring an armor of salvation? or why bring any IAS when you could bring an essense of clarity? Why bring IMS when you could bring birthday cupcakes? Why even bother with the fast casting attribute when you could use red rock candies and essenses of clarity? If you have an unlimited supply of cons, then by all means use them. For everyone else who would rather use the cons to make money or, more likely, wouldn't have them in the first place, there is AR. My suggestion to you is, if you really do have an unlimited supply of pie, sell it to make a buttload of cash and then run AR anyway. Is having that one extra skill slot free really worth having to use personal cons wherever you go in PvE?

belshazaarswrath · Jun 22, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Aggressive refrain is mediocre at best. Sure it's a "permanent" IAS but it puts you down at caster armor and is a bitch to bring back if you somehow let it go away. Also it forces you to bring easily spammable shouts which may or may not be what your build needs. With all that said I use it because it's the best non elite IAS paragons have and there's something to be said for at least having a decent IAS (Dervishes don't have any...but they still deal way more damage than paragons)

Lanier · Jun 22, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Aggressive refrain is mediocre at best. Sure it's a "permanent" IAS but it puts you down at caster armor and is a bitch to bring back if you somehow let it go away. Also it forces you to bring easily spammable shouts which may or may not be what your build needs. With all that said I use it because it's the best non elite IAS paragons have and there's something to be said for at least having a decent IAS (Dervishes don't have any...but they still deal way more damage than paragons)

Eh, iv found the -armor to be of very little consequence in PvE. I mean how often do you as a base 80 ar backliner with a shield get targeted by the enemy. Plus, with the shield and the +10 from the centurion's insignias, the paragons armor is still at 86

Also, like I stated earlier, Tntf is the only skill necessary for maintaning AR. I really can't think of a situation when a paragon shouldn't have Tntf on their bar anyway. Therefore, AR really shouldn't force you to bring a skill you wouldn't have on your bar anyway.