Curse

Szymaa · Dec 29, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

As a primary Ranger, I feel I should at least chime in here. Even if they weren't to completely overhaul the effects caused by Nature Rituals, a quick glance of the table on guild wiki shows that only two non-elite rituals have less than a 60 second recharge (Muddy Terrain and Frozen Soil). Similarly, the majority of them have 5 second cast times.

What if they were to cut the recharge times and casting times in half across the board. Make non-elite rituals have a 30 second recharge, and elite ones 15s. Plus 2 and 1 second cast times respectively. My thinking here is that if we were to make rituals act more on the scale of enchantments, they might be slightly more useful in a PvE environment.

(Feel free to flame away, I'm new to Amateur Skill-balancing)

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Those are givens.

Xenomortis · Dec 29, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

The recharge aren't don't put me off so much, but the cast times are definitely a killer.
If they didn't take 5 seconds each, I would probably Winnowing and Favourable Winds. I consider them even now on the rare occasions I bring ranger heroes.

The fact these rituals affects all creatures is important - otherwise some of them become lose their strong caveats and become too ridiculous.

Xiaquin · Dec 29, 2010, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, more towards turrets then?

But here's the issue. If Rangers are better at turreting than Paragons, then that pushes Paragons ever more towards support.

Rangers already are better turrets, but that's not my concern. Ranged professions shouldn't have to rely on DPS to be valuable. As the meta is, that's all people want (thank you, power creep). I don't know if the ranger nerfs are all trickle-down from PvP balancing or what, but I can live without being a mindless "turret".

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

...you would need to be able to dshot every skill on multiple opponent's bars just to accomplish what panic does now.

This doesn't have to be a competition. Nothing beats the shutdown of Panic when enemies are balled, but that's a luxury, not a guarantee. AoE shutdown is a best-case scenario.

@Szymaa - Yes, low activations and quicker recharges are the least that nature rituals need. Any suggestions for functionality changes?

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Shutting down a single target is far inferior to simply killing them outright. If you want shutdown to be useful, well, panic is the kind of stuff that is needed.

...Unless you want the power creep on damage reverted, but that's about as likely as Protective Spirit getting smiter's booned. Let's be realistic here.

Xiaquin · Dec 29, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Shutting down a single target is far inferior to simply killing them outright. If you want shutdown to be useful, well, panic is the kind of stuff that is needed.

Panic won't shut down anything unless it's nearby other foes activating skills, assuming they were hexed too. It's not an interrupt, it's a hex, a conditional one at that.

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Semantics. If the panicking target isn't near other foes, then the use of panic (or interrupts, or shutdown in general) was most likely not worth it in the first place.

Xiaquin · Dec 30, 2010, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Semantics. If the panicking target isn't near other foes, then the use of panic (or interrupts, or shutdown in general) was most likely not worth it in the first place.

What are you basing that on? If a boss/healer/AoE caster has no nearby allies, it's no longer worth it to shut them down?

Szymaa · Dec 30, 2010, 04:40 AM // 04:40

@Xiaquin, here's a few ideas I came up with. They may be borderline OP, but I think they keep the intention of the ritual alive.

Conflagration 2sec cast, Converts all elemental damage in range into Fire Damage. Affects all creatures.

Energizing Wind 10e, 2sec cast, Creates a level 2...6...7 spirit. Skills cost 10 less energy (minimum cost 5 energy) and recharge 20% faster for allies/party members in range. Does not affect spirits. Change to Wilderness Survival.

Equinox 10e, 1sec cast, Causes Exhaustion on all spells for all enemies within range.

Famine 5e, 1sec cast, increase damage to 15...35...40

Favorable Winds 2sec cast, have +dmg scale with Marksmanship ranks (4...10...12). Allies/party members only.

Fertile Season 2sec cast, lower +health to (50...100...120) and affect allies.

Greater Conflagration 1sec cast, Converts all physical damage to fire damage for all creatures in range, adds (1...8...10) damage for allies.

Muddy Terrain 2sec cast, change to only affects enemies.

Nature's Renewal 10e, 2sec cast, Enemy Enchantments and Hexes take (20...45...50%) longer to cast and expire (20...35...40%) faster.

Pestilence 10e, 2sec cast, When any enemy in range dies, any conditions are spread to adjacent creatures of the same species.

Quickening Zephyr 15e, 2sec cast, Enemy skills cost (15...30...35%) more energy and recharge (20...45...50%) faster.

Toxicity 2sec cast, If an enemy under the effects of this ritual becomes poisoned, they also become diseased. Move to Wilderness Survival.

----

Those are the ones that jumped out at me, they're not perfect, and I'm not the best with the progressions, but I think they'd become alot more useful.

Xiaquin · Dec 30, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Thanks, Szymaa, it's easy to talk about change, it's another to make suggestions. Cast times seem appropriate, I'd also like recharges to be cut to at least 30s for all. I think you have the right idea with many NRs affecting only enemies or allies/party, but I agree that a lot of these are OP. My worry is that they will just become mindless fodder for heroes to pump out. Even if some are moved to Expertise, it won't help.

I'll try my hand at a couple, at least on ones that are easy:

Quote:

Energizing Wind Skills cost 10 less energy (minimum 5) and recharge 25% slower for allies/party members in range. Does not affect spirits. Change to Wilderness Survival.

Nature's Renewal 10e, 2sec cast, Keep functionality, reduce duration to 2...15...20 seconds. Effects non-spirit foes within range.

The problem with elemental damage is that it's really not a factor, in general, so it's hard to see a use unless there's added functionality. Fertile Season could be a problem no matter what, just ask a healer's opinion of Endure Pain.

reaper with no name · Dec 30, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Szymaa

@Xiaquin, here's a few ideas I came up with. They may be borderline OP, but I think they keep the intention of the ritual alive.

Conflagration 2sec cast, Converts all elemental damage in range into Fire Damage. Affects all creatures.

Energizing Wind 10e, 2sec cast, Creates a level 2...6...7 spirit. Skills cost 10 less energy (minimum cost 5 energy) and recharge 20% faster for allies/party members in range. Does not affect spirits. Change to Wilderness Survival.

Equinox 10e, 1sec cast, Causes Exhaustion on all spells for all enemies within range.

Famine 5e, 1sec cast, increase damage to 15...35...40

Favorable Winds 2sec cast, have +dmg scale with Marksmanship ranks (4...10...12). Allies/party members only.

Fertile Season 2sec cast, lower +health to (50...100...120) and affect allies.

Greater Conflagration 1sec cast, Converts all physical damage to fire damage for all creatures in range, adds (1...8...10) damage for allies.

Muddy Terrain 2sec cast, change to only affects enemies.

Nature's Renewal 10e, 2sec cast, Enemy Enchantments and Hexes take (20...45...50%) longer to cast and expire (20...35...40%) faster.

Pestilence 10e, 2sec cast, When any enemy in range dies, any conditions are spread to adjacent creatures of the same species.

Quickening Zephyr 15e, 2sec cast, Enemy skills cost (15...30...35%) more energy and recharge (20...45...50%) faster.

Toxicity 2sec cast, If an enemy under the effects of this ritual becomes poisoned, they also become diseased. Move to Wilderness Survival.

----

Those are the ones that jumped out at me, they're not perfect, and I'm not the best with the progressions, but I think they'd become alot more useful.

No, actually, I think they're very balanced. Maybe even a bit on the underpowered side still.

Szymaa · Dec 30, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I stared long and hard at Nature's Renewal. I think the original functionality of doubling cast times is a good one, but the caveat of having maintained enchantments cost double doesn't make sense. I can't recall a single instance in PvE where enemies use maintained enchants, and when they do, having them cost twice as much to maintain isn't nearly the burden it could be on a player.

It always bugged me that Conflagration didn't work exactly like Winter, only with fire damage. Why they added the stipulation of 'arrows only' severely limits it's already limited usefulness in a PvE sense.

As for Energizing Wind, what if it were moved to Expertise, and had the slower recharge condition scale from high to low based on rank? Something like (25...10...5%)?

The only other spirit I thought could use a major overhaul was Lacerate, but I couldn't come up with anything.

(Side Note: Is there a more useless skill in the game than Primal Echoes? Signets are incredibly situational as they are, and very few creatures or players for that matter use them to begin with.)

Fay Vert · Dec 30, 2010, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Greater Conflagration is a very poor elite, though does see some play in specific builds. In general it's pants!

Necromas · Dec 30, 2010, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I'm not big on making nature spirits strictly beneficial to allies/harmful to enemies, that's part of what makes them special and what justifies some of the really strong effects they have. Still, I think they should benefit allies more than they benefit foes and harm allies less than they harm foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Szymaa

Energizing Wind 10e, 2sec cast, Creates a level 2...6...7 spirit. Skills cost 10 less energy (minimum cost 5 energy) and recharge 20% faster for allies/party members in range. Does not affect spirits. Change to Wilderness Survival.

Hugely OP

Quote:

Equinox 10e, 1sec cast, Causes Exhaustion on all spells for all enemies within range.

Add 'Spells cost 3...1..0 (or 3...0..0) more energy for all creatures within range.' so people have to spec wilderness to not have a downside to this awesome effect.

Quote:

Favorable Winds 2sec cast, have +dmg scale with Marksmanship ranks (4...10...12). Allies/party members only.

Have damage be allies only, enemy arrows still move twice as fast.

Quote:

Fertile Season 2sec cast, lower +health to (50...100...120) and affect allies.

How about "Creatures in range gain +x health when an enchantment is cast on them. Allies in range gain +y maximum health per enchantment on them." Sort of like a divine favor boost, and the allies still get a much better benefit than the enemies. Alternatively could change it to +max all creatures, gain health allies. Balance all depends on the values of x and y.

Quote:

Nature's Renewal 10e, 2sec cast, Enemy Enchantments and Hexes take (20...45...50%) longer to cast and expire (20...35...40%) faster.

Add 'Ally enchantments and hexes take 25...10...5% longer to cast and expire 25...10...5% faster.' Maybe 20...5...0.

Quote:

Pestilence 10e, 2sec cast, When any enemy in range dies, any conditions are spread to adjacent creatures of the same species.

Never really liked the idea of making species a major factor in skills, just seems weird that all of a sudden if you're fighting humans it drastically changes only like 3 skills (this, rotting flesh, club of 1k bears). What about effects all creatures, conditions spread to allies of the creature that died? Maybe change it back to in the area but then leave the pre-req of already having a condition.

Quote:

Quickening Zephyr 15e, 2sec cast, Enemy skills cost (15...30...35%) more energy and recharge (20...45...50%) faster.

This is OP for the enemies! Sure they'll run out of energy faster but they'll nuke you twice as fast! It's already easier to kill an enemy in PvE than use e-denial on them and with this they can do a lot more before you can kill them.

How about ally skills cost 30...15...10% more energy and recharge 15...30...35% faster, enemy skills cost 15...30...35% more energy and recharge 30...15...10% faster.

I'm not the best with progressions (or wording) either but the functionality is what's important.

Fay Vert · Dec 30, 2010, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necromas

Have damage be allies only, enemy arrows still move twice as fast.

As it's supposed to be favorable winds then foes arrows should travel slower.

Xiaquin · Dec 31, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

As it's supposed to be favorable winds then foes arrows should travel slower.

That actually is a good point, I would assume "favorable" would mean having the wind at your back, so that would hurt the enemy. I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to make other NRs work that way, sort of like a boon/handicap depending if friend or foe creates them, but it gets OP very quickly.

Hemeh · Dec 31, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

So... Anet is adding a new Hero ranger, and the hero ranger is a Paragon... LOL.
I have a great respect for the guys of Arena Net, and for the way how they treat this game, but they have to see that Rangers need some changes, after that. Change all Beast mastery for start...

RedDog91 · Jan 01, 2011, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I won't say that there aren't some problems with the Ranger profession that need to be fixed, but most of what I'm seeing is this thread is people asking for certain skills to be changed in a way to fit a specific build that the person wants to run, not changes to improve the profession overall.

Hemeh · Jan 01, 2011, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

I won't say that there aren't some problems with the Ranger profession that need to be fixed, but most of what I'm seeing is this thread is people asking for certain skills to be changed in a way to fit a specific build that the person wants to run, not changes to improve the profession overall.

Yes, some of the suggestions are very specific. I just think that Beast mastery and traps are not fun to play.

I Echo Dshot · Jan 01, 2011, 07:22 AM // 07:22

AoE is what wins in PvE.