Curse

Fay Vert · Nov 16, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

You don't buy EotN just to get a skill, you buy it because it has a lot of content, especially now with the focus moving to GW2. Honestly you would be crazy to be playing GW now and not get EotN.

But more importantly, and sadly, even with EotN, there isn't a lot of point to a ranger in PvE, cerainly GDW doesn't add anything to a ranger. It adds a bit to your pet, but pets are really bad in PvE.

Magni Ea · Nov 18, 2010, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Why would I want more content when the content I already have access to (the 3 campaigns) cannot be completed with how Ranger now performs?

For me the only reason to buy EotN would be for the skills and from what you just said they really don't help anyway.

This is not helping Anet... or us Ranger fans. Why should I buy EotN?

Bigger picture... Why should I buy GW2? With how Anet has "managed" the Ranger primary profession in GW they have not proven to me that a single class Ranger will be any good at all in GW2.

That is what Anet should be thinking about and why the Ranger primary profession needs to near top priority right now.

jhand · Nov 19, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Awsome post Shriketalon, there are some really good ideas there but the changes to marksmanship to have different condition effects seem odd. I'd say keep them more like how they are now, but give a few buffs and changes to a few.

They need to change a few more bow attacks so that they have a 1 sec cast time, normal speed is just too slow.

There is a lot of improvement needed in wilderness survival, but it would have to be a overhaul, and thats not going to happen. So might as well just make a couple decent changes and leave it at that.

Lastly it would be awsome if almost all the preparations lasted 36 seconds instead of 24. There could be an exception with a few, mainly the ones that are lower than 24 seconds as of now, (choking gas, marks, melandru, etc.) Instead of being bumped to 36, these would only bump to 24-28. Also ill repeat that i think it would be good to have more bow attacks that have the 1 sec casting time, instead of default, and not all of them should have an after cast.

Xiaquin · Nov 19, 2010, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhand

/snip

A few of those aren't bad. Barrage you are making a bit overpowered by removing the loss of prep. I think Sins already take advantage of Disrupting Accuracy, and that with nearby foe range would just be insane (OT:I wish they would make CS only affect daggers).

Even so, I think Barrage is ok where it's at, there's so much else needing rework. I especially like the recharge reduction and lengthening skill durations.

jhand · Nov 20, 2010, 06:21 AM // 06:21

good point. I didnt think about that with the sins, but i should know better. How do the skills look now? oh, and these dont all need to apply to pvp.

miriforst · Nov 20, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

It's nice you returned to the game, but most of your posts lead me to believe you should hang around a bit more before comparing. Mesmers are meant to have lots of disruptive stuff and the profession would be fairly useless without their recharge fix. Rangers are on the other hand bring spam, tools like Winter, and synergy with curse necromancers. A ranger wouldn't fill their bar with rupts anyway in PvE.

Quote:

Winter goes well with Mantra of Frost. Even though it's limited to locations, it's a great skill that has much use.

Oh dear, someone proposed us to use a nature ritual except eoe!

Nature rituals has zero value in normal play and are almost jokes compared to the ritu spirits due to 6x+ longer cast times, twice the recharge, weaker effects and affecting both allies and foes alike + the fact that the ritu has more synergy with nature rituals than a ranger is ever going to have with über skills making them beasts as long as they have spirits on their skillbar.

truth is that nones going to use a ranger with spirits even in the teams where winter/whatever nature ritual has use because they will take a character they actually have use of (ua/panic/dwg/sos/etc) and take the nature ritual as a optional slot (for example the sos in fowsc or doa frostway).

Hemeh · Nov 21, 2010, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

This one's going to be long. Sorry about that. Points are bolded if you just want to browse through it. (...) The Ranger should be better.

Brilhant post. Many kudos.
I am a ranger and a proud one. So any change make me uneasy. But I think we need some improvement. I only PvE as a SoS, what says alot about ranger skills.
My humble opinion: Make Traps faster activated, and make Expertise give + 4% of weapon spell time duration per each point.

Xiaquin · Nov 21, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemeh

Brilhant post. Many kudos.
I am a ranger and a proud one. So any change make me uneasy. But I think we need some improvement. I only PvE as a SoS, what says alot about ranger skills.
My humble opinion: Make Traps faster activated, and make Expertise give + 4% of weapon spell time duration per each point.

You shouldn't resist change if you are running a rit bar on your ranger.

Why change Expertise though? For one, rangers don't even have weapon spells, not to mention that suggestion copies Spawning Power. Generally, I feel ranger attributes are ok, though I'd be for adding something unique to WS to make it more attractive.

Hemeh · Nov 21, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

You shouldn't resist change if you are running a rit bar on your ranger.

Why change Expertise though? For one, rangers don't even have weapon spells, not to mention that suggestion copies Spawning Power. Generally, I feel ranger attributes are ok, though I'd be for adding something unique to WS to make it more attractive.

LOL. I belive that changes are usualy for bad, but u have a point.
Anyway...
Traps, ranger's spirits and Beast Mastery need some change. I dont think I will play as a ranger in GW2, becouse I dont like the way they treat Beast Mastery in GW1. And if I will be forced to have a Pet in my Skill bar in GW2 as a ranger...

Fay Vert · Nov 21, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Just give us Thackeray's skills! Okay, maybe not the sniper shot

LifeInfusion · Nov 21, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhand

Marksmanship:

Debilitating shot - enemy looses 3...10 energy, you gain that energy, decrease cost to 5e, 5 sec recharge
Powershot - needs to revert back to +dmg. +15...45 dmg, 4 sec recharge.
Determined shot - Does +5...25 dmg if target is bleeding. 5e, 2 sec recharge.
Marauder shot - +5..20 dmg. Inflicts knockdown. 8 sec recharge.
Focused shot - +5...25 dmg. inflicts cracked armor. 10e, 6 sec recharge.
Penetrating shot - 25% armor pen
Sundering shot - 25% armor pen
Precision shot - moves twice as fast, does +5..25. 5e 4 sec recharge. not easily interrupted.
Volley: no +dmg at all to arrows, does not remove prep, 5 sec recharge.
Read the wind - more +dmg, +3...18
Seeking arrows - instead of unblockable, your arrows do 10% armor pen.
Rapid fire - 33% faster and unblockable.
Healing spring - change it from a trap to a skill. For 10 sec, you are healed for 10...50 every 2 seconds, loose one condition after 10 sec. 10e, 2 sec cast, 15 sec recharge.

I disagree with a few suggestions.

Debilitating shot is already good energy denial. It's just that energy denial doesn't work in PVE. 5 recharge would mean you can basically empty someone's pool since it'd be 2 energy per second.

Power shot should be 8 seconds recharge if has + damage of 40 or so. That is really high + damage that is on a high ranged weapon (you can do it on a longbow). The reason why Point blank shot can afford that high a damage is because it's half range.

Determined shot on 2 recharge would be insane, if you have miss hexes or blind you can recharge all your attack skills like nothing is wrong. Even more so with Oath shot paired with determined shot. Blind, blurred is usually around 6-12 seconds recharge, so it would be best to have it around 6-8 second recharge.

Rangers with knockdown is also pretty imbalanced, especially if it has + damage tacked on.

Focused shot would be like giving shell shock to warriors without asking them to go W/E.

Penetrating attack ought to be 20%. That's what Penetrating chop/blow on axes is.

Read the wind was nerfed due to PVP.

Healing spring would be used more if the area was larger (nearby) and if it didn't take 2 seconds to cast. It's a stronger heal than people make it out to be, it's just not reliable.

Just keep in mind melee has to do more damage than ranged. Otherwise there's no reason to run melee at all.

jhand · Nov 21, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Just keep in mind melee has to do more damage than ranged. Otherwise there's no reason to run melee at all.

I agree with you, but based on that kind of logic, there's no reason to run a ranger at all.

On my list, determined shot wouldn't recharge skills anymore, it would only do the +5...25 if foe is bleeding, which is why it has a 2 sec recharge, but it could go to 3 sec recharge.

Debilitating shot wouldn't matter if it drained the foe's energy pool quickly, since they die in about 5 sec in pve anyways. Rangers really need a simple way of gaining energy. Hopefully with the 5 sec recharge, you could get about 10 energy back every 2 kills.

I know that the power shot buff is a bit op, but thats because it may be the worst skill in the game right now, and i wanted to point out that it really needed improvement, it shouldn't have an 8 sec recharge though. Maybe like +15...40, 5 sec recharge.

If rangers with knockdown is imbalanced, then it could be switched out for deep wound, but again, i don't think either would be extremely op since its pve, and there are things much more op in the game than that.

If focus shot seems op, drop the damage down to 5..20 or 5..15. Although it isn't exactly like giving warriors shell shock without w/e, because warriors already have good skills/builds, unlike rangers.

I never understood why read the wind was nerfed, and also split into pve/pvp, and I agree with you about the 20% pen on sunder/pen.

Of course these arn't going to all be completely balanced, just ideas.

LifeInfusion · Nov 21, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Well mesmers got deep wound too, but it's extremely conditional (Accumulated Pain) but KD is still elite status (Psychic instability) or with exhaustion (earthquake, gale, shock) or melee (backbreaker, Devastating blow, etc).

Rangers have d-shot, savage shot. Warriors need to run up to things to d-chop/savage slash.

Really rangers are about conditions and interrupts (and higher survivability mainly against elementalists, which matters much less in PvE when monsters hit for 300 damage). The problem is conditions aren't strong in PvE (except for daze on casters and blind on warriors). The ones that matter (Cracked armor, Weakness is better applied by necros) don't get applied. Throw dirt is risky for a ranger, even.

You see rangers in PvP with cripshot or Burning arrow, neither of which are satisfactory in PvE. At one point we had oathshot spirit spam too as well as R/A daggers and R/W bunny thumpers. PvE is dominated by Barrage and Splinter barrage (which are adjacent range), the latter of which is done better by a Rt/R.

It boils down to this: pets are subpar due to AI, Traps are gimmicky at best (since they need to be stacked and they have a 20 cooldown and easily interrupted), spirits are useless for the most part (Winter, EoE are basically the only ones used) and ritualists have better uses for spirits. With reduced cast times in hard mode, it's also harder to interrupt with a ranger, since the likely skills you're interrupting (res, meteor shower, healing signet, etc.) are also shorter casts.

jhand · Nov 21, 2010, 10:52 PM // 22:52

All spot on, which is why they need their damage skills buffed

, since all their other skills are crap, (pets, spirits, traps, even most elites).

edit:modified the skills in my original post.

Balky · Nov 21, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I`d like to see Markmanship not just increase damage, but also give an armour pen bonus as warriors strength does, 1% for every point would be fine. It`d give a higher crit chance too, says something when a sin can run a bow build and get more crits than a ranger.

Xiaquin · Nov 22, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

I`d like to see Markmanship not just increase damage, but also give an armour pen bonus as warriors strength does, 1% for every point would be fine. It`d give a higher crit chance too, says something when a sin can run a bow build and get more crits than a ranger.

Critical sins are overpowered because Critical Strikes has no weapon restriction.

As for adding AP to Marksmanship, is it possible to split an attribute? I really doubt that would go over well in PvP.

Red Intensity · Nov 22, 2010, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Critical sins are overpowered because Critical Strikes has no weapon restriction.

As for adding AP to Marksmanship, is it possible to split an attribute? I really doubt that would go over well in PvP.

They did it for mesmers with Fast Casting. Now in PvE, mesmers' skills recharge faster.

saint666 · Nov 22, 2010, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

I`d like to see Markmanship not just increase damage, but also give an armour pen bonus as warriors strength does, 1% for every point would be fine. It`d give a higher crit chance too, says something when a sin can run a bow build and get more crits than a ranger.

bows suck, even with critical strikes, crit bow is by far the weakest crit build out there. The slow fire rate combined with mediocre max damage, i doubt some AP and crits will change anything. There's nothing wrong with marksmanship, ranger skills are balanced for pvp, what it needs is a skill rebalance for pve. Some pve changes that comes to mind are barrage/volley doesn't remove preps, increase the damage on glass arrows, reduce the recharge on dual shot and triple shot, maybe those might help.

Amy Awien · Nov 22, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Maybe simply increasing the firing rate of the bow - to something similar to the spear - would make it a weapon usefull enough for PvE. Ranger primaries borrow weapons from other professions because they are more effective with those weapons then with their own bows.

Fay Vert · Nov 22, 2010, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Bows should be a slow fire rate/high damage weapon, that's their thing, but not in GW